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People continually call magazines "clips" but that doesn't make it acceptable. Calling it Long Colt means you either don't know any better, or you don't mind being seen as ignorant by those who do.
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long term 2 gun combos for the Great Basin
- Thread starter koyote
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People continually call magazines "clips" but that doesn't make it acceptable. Calling it Long Colt means you either don't know any better, or you don't mind being seen as ignorant by those who do.
crossada
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I don't mind being called ignorant
and i don't know any better but in my Vaquero's instruction manual it says it shoots .45 Colt also known as .45LC so i'm curious what the difference is?
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I don't mind being called ignorant
That's Ruger for you. Right along the same lines as the giant safety message printed all over their guns.
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A number of ammunition makers label their ammo, "Long Colt".
It actually strikes me as a useful distinction. The proper ".45 Colt" designation is sometimes confused with ".45 ACP" by the casual shooter. The increasing use of the term ".45 Long Colt" has probably come about to avoid the confusion. And I like it.
Language evolves, "ain't" is now an accepted word, and I suspect that .45LC is here to stay. At least until the plasma blaster makes it obsolete. Ain't that a bitch?
It actually strikes me as a useful distinction. The proper ".45 Colt" designation is sometimes confused with ".45 ACP" by the casual shooter. The increasing use of the term ".45 Long Colt" has probably come about to avoid the confusion. And I like it.
Language evolves, "ain't" is now an accepted word, and I suspect that .45LC is here to stay. At least until the plasma blaster makes it obsolete. Ain't that a bitch?
There was never a Short Colt. To some, this means that there was never a Long Colt...
Of course, a couple years after the introduction of .45 Colt, there was a short .45 Schofield introduced that would chamber and fire in the .45 Colts and was noticeably shorter, and was issued by the Army for their Colt revolvers, but that doesn't count...
Of course, a couple years after the introduction of .45 Colt, there was a short .45 Schofield introduced that would chamber and fire in the .45 Colts and was noticeably shorter, and was issued by the Army for their Colt revolvers, but that doesn't count...
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Yeah, but the original loads were lightened up, so maybe we should specify ".45 Light Colt" and ".45 Heavy Colt". Then the real amateurs like me would end up saying, ".45 Heavy Long Colt" and really confuse the issue. Maybe we should just stick with ".45 Colt". 
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Repeated misuse can indeed warp the language, but that doesn't mean I have to accept it. 
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wildmanh
Part time Leather Bender/Sheath maker
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There is a .45 Short Colt. Official name is .45 Colt Government. And there is a Long Colt, Official name .45 Colt. Life is to short to argue about proper usage and acceptible usage and all that. I call them LC and SC you use Colt and Colt Government and life goes on.
Was talking with a neighbors son-inlaw yesterday about hunting down here in Sanpete County. The ranges/shot distances around here are around 100 yards. Sometimes more but mostly 100 yards. Which is with in the range of a .357 Magnum out of a Carbine.
There is frequent talk on the Marlin forums about using the 1894c in .357 Mag to hunt deer. Keep it under 150 yards, know your gun and load, and you should get a deer every time. Since it's up to the task if I am and it's less expencive then a .44 Magnum I'll stick with my .357 Magnum. :thumbup:
Long range won't be a problem either since the OP qualified the thread with the fact that we already have another long gun for long range. I'd go with a Winchester 1876 in .45-75 or .45-60 or a Winchester 1886 in .45-70. Either gun would have a 30" or 32" Octagon Barrel, mid length fore-end, full length magazine and the '76 would have a cresent butt. *drools*
Was talking with a neighbors son-inlaw yesterday about hunting down here in Sanpete County. The ranges/shot distances around here are around 100 yards. Sometimes more but mostly 100 yards. Which is with in the range of a .357 Magnum out of a Carbine.
There is frequent talk on the Marlin forums about using the 1894c in .357 Mag to hunt deer. Keep it under 150 yards, know your gun and load, and you should get a deer every time. Since it's up to the task if I am and it's less expencive then a .44 Magnum I'll stick with my .357 Magnum. :thumbup:
Long range won't be a problem either since the OP qualified the thread with the fact that we already have another long gun for long range. I'd go with a Winchester 1876 in .45-75 or .45-60 or a Winchester 1886 in .45-70. Either gun would have a 30" or 32" Octagon Barrel, mid length fore-end, full length magazine and the '76 would have a cresent butt. *drools*
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A lot of the arguments against the .357 and any other "pistol caliber" carbine have been based on extended range for any purpose, be it hunting or what.
The cost comment on the .357 makes some sense....
now, the .45-70- I've been hearing some good reports about this:
(not my image, but the guy takes darn good photos)
That's the H&R Buffalo Classic. Yeah, single shot, but.... well, look at it!
dogboye
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Nice thread on the .45 Colt, Long Colt, Government, etc. Always love those. The way I see it, it doesn't much matter as long as you can get your point across without having to have a 2 minute conversation to explain what you mean.
I lost the bubble somewhere, though, in the original question. What exactly is the purpose of the combo? If you've got the SG and the bolt-action in the truck, what again are you doing with the lever and revolver? That makes a big difference in the answer, I think. Why again are you limiting yourself to both weapons taking the same ammo? Was that covered somewhere between page 2 and 6? Need to go back and read those pages.
I lost the bubble somewhere, though, in the original question. What exactly is the purpose of the combo? If you've got the SG and the bolt-action in the truck, what again are you doing with the lever and revolver? That makes a big difference in the answer, I think. Why again are you limiting yourself to both weapons taking the same ammo? Was that covered somewhere between page 2 and 6? Need to go back and read those pages.
wildmanh
Part time Leather Bender/Sheath maker
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A lot of the arguments against the .357 and any other "pistol caliber" carbine have been based on extended range for any purpose, be it hunting or what.
The cost comment on the .357 makes some sense....
now, the .45-70- I've been hearing some good reports about this:
(not my image, but the guy takes darn good photos)
That's the H&R Buffalo Classic. Yeah, single shot, but.... well, look at it!
Cost is a big thing to some of us. Not just buying the guns, but also keeping them fed which keeps me fed. So .357 Mag is great. Also The Marlin 1894C will handle 180 grain and 200 grain loads. If you do your part, that will bring down an Elk and still cost less then shooting .44 Magnum. According to the reloading book in .357 Mag that I have, going from a Pistol to a Carbine adds on average 500 FPS to the round. So if your pet load does 1,500 FPS out of your pistol, it should be doing close to 2,000 FPS out of your Carbine. Also, an 18" Barrel is considered ideal for a .357 Mag carbine because after that, the powder runs out of steam. Cost, Weight and avaliablity all favor the .357, at least around here. Plus, I already have the .357 Mag combo.
BTW Thats one Nice looking Rifle. Is that a 30-32" Barrel it has? Had a neighbor in Provo with a more basic model and shorter barrel. Accurate but not as pretty. Figure something like that would go nicely with my .357 Mag combo.
I read a history of a Buffalo hunter. He considered the .45-70 to be acceptible, but prefered something bigger. .45-110 or .50-110 IIRC. With modern weapons and ammo the .45-70 can be made as hot or hotter then the old Black powder .45-110. If it was good enough for an old buffalo hunter at 250 to 350 yards, it's good enough for me.
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Great question, I need to go back over some basic thoughts in the OP-
First, this is NOT a 2 gun long term survival combo. The shotgun and a large bolt gun may not be in the truck, but I have them. Having a family, I have duties far beyond piling guns in a truck and leaving if something really bad happens.
This is intended to look at as a survival combo for short term, emergencies, or unexpected events while I'm tooling around the outback. But, with that in mind, you have to consider what you'll actually carry and what your purposes are. I like to shoot and will head out into the desert just to do that, which means I don't particularly want to carry a 9 ounce .454 or something. Not a large and heavy bolt gun, unless that's what I'm going out to shoot (but that's not tooling around anymore)
The "same caliber" thing isn't even that- it's a preference for keeping within the same cartridge family. There's a few reasons for this:
1: It doesn't necessarily simplify reloading on all levels, but it does on some. While most of the responses to my reloading focus have been "jarrry Ahern post 500 year apocalypse" - there's also the simple fact that it can be easier to manage reloading at all times if you don't have to stock 3 different primer sizes, any number of bullet types, etc. You do have to adjust things to load different carts in the same family (like .38 versus .357) though.
2: Versatility. If I'm carrying, say, a .38 revolver and a .357 lever gun (or a .44 special and .44mag lever), it's not the same cartridge, but it's the same family. I can keep a half dozen small game handloads that either will accept, for example. and if something did happen, I would be able to use, with decent effect, the pistol ammo in the carbine should I need to. After all, unless soemthing happens to the carbine, it's going to be more used than the pistol if I have it.
3: And this doesn't directly relate to the "same cartridge family" part, but - I like tooling around out here. lots of variable environmental zones, lots of space. Carrying a handgun is not uncommon or unexpected, carrying a rifle isn't, either. I may not always take the rifle out of the truck, but if I do, I want something that's fairly easy to carry and easy shooting. In general, that gets away from heavier and longer hunting rifles, and for ammunition carrying purposes, away from large bore shotguns. Left with carbine type firearms for a preference, focussing on similar cartridge families between the revolver and carbine makes some sense. Looking at the numbers in the first post, it's also obvious that this isn't necessarily just "shooting a longer pistol", either.
Regarding the lever action itself, Chuck Hawkes wrote somewhere that people often compare the lever gun to the bolt action unfairly. Some bolts actions will have a stronger mechanism, but in general the comparison is unfair because people treat their bolt guns like match rifles and their lever guns as saddle rifles. If you polish and tune a lever gun the same way you do a bolt, you will start getting similar levels of performance.
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cost is definitely a factor for me. Even reloading, the .357 will be significantly less than the .44.
The H&R buffalo classic, incidentally, is a fairly inexpensive rifle, being under $450 with a 32 inch midweight barrel and coming stock with a Williams receiver sight, Lyman target front sight.
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FWIW, one of the reasons to consider .357mag and .35 Rem is that if you standardize your bullets to heavy 180-200gr hard cast, you could load them for both calibers. While the stubby WFN isn't ideal for long range accuracy or efficiency in a .35 Rem, it gets the job done and it is more potent than a .357 Mag lever... That said, I think the OP wanted to use the same ammo in both -- so, .357 to .45 colt would be fine........ my preference would be the .41 mag (close to the .44 (.43) in energy, but flatter-shooting and better sectional density).
wildmanh
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Thanks for the information on the Buffalo classic, I was on my way to class so didn't have the time to search it out. Now that I'm back and have the time, I totally want one. For the price, I don't believe one can really be beat.
Sounds as if you are looking for a woods bumming combo. Find what works for you and stick with it. I've never shot .45 lc or .44 Mag so I don't know how I'd like them. When I first got into shooting, I rented a few .357 Magnums from a local range and put lots of ammo through them. That helped me deside that I liked .38/.357 mag. Bought my Pistol then a year later got my Carbine. Found factory rounds I liked in both and shot them a ton. Got good with both and have not thought much about getting anything else.
On the line of shared components in the same family. Primers and Bullets are shared, but cases and powder are not. Well, some powders can be shared on a limited basis. If you want to avoid that, there are light loads using .357 Mag cases that mimic a .38 Special. I believe you can even share powder between some heavy loads and some light loads. Would love to come up with a 125 grain round nose small game load for my Revolver. Then I wouldn't even need to use .38 special in the gun.
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Repeated misuse can indeed warp the language, but that doesn't mean I have to accept it.
If you can't say something nice, etc....
And, generally speaking, I suspect most of the world does not give due consideration to your "acceptance."
We should do something about that.