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Looking for critiques and constructive criticism...new member. Made my first knife.

I shoudla looked it up before reaponded.....That's slick they offer numerous sizes...the plunger style is exactly what had in mind...those gallon tin ones are next level...yeah totally appreciate the suggestion thinking will be tape it together and make quick orientation marks and set it on a shelf for now till can get some. Thank you again very much.
 
When I first started out I poured over all the posts here on Shop Talk and watched every YouTube video by Walter Sorrels and Nick Wheeler. They do a good job at walking you through the process from design to execution. There are a thousand tiny details that you'll realize you need to think about. The other thing I had to learn was to not rush. I was so excited to get the knife finished I hurried and made more mistakes.
It's a great craft to get involved with. Making something by hand that has beautiful form and function is very gratifying.
 
When I first started out I poured over all the posts here on Shop Talk and watched every YouTube video by Walter Sorrels and Nick Wheeler. They do a good job at walking you through the process from design to execution. There are a thousand tiny details that you'll realize you need to think about. The other thing I had to learn was to not rush. I was so excited to get the knife finished I hurried and made more mistakes.
It's a great craft to get involved with. Making something by hand that has beautiful form and function is very gratifying.
Thank you for the suggestions i really appreciate it and will defeinelty check it out. I dropped out 12 credits shy of getting a bachelor in fine arts w emphasis on sculpture and the professor and I became great friends. I worked with him few years on some miltary contracted foundry technology after he retired from teaching and he mentored me fairly well on metallurgy and the chemistry of it. Ive lost contact with him after I moved and he went off the map since his son passed. One of these days I need to make a trip to visit him cause I miss him something fierce. I totally am grateful found this forum cause understand the value of knowledgeable experts that can guide someone new to something. Thanks again for the resources to look into.
 
Welcome to Shop Talk.
Fill out your profile so we know where you live and a bit about you. There may be a maker nearby who can help you learn.

The knife is a good first knife. Congratulations!

As you said, it is very thick. A bit thinner would be better, try 4.75mm next time. Most field knives are between 3mm and 4mm thick at the spine. This make a knife that is strong and also cuts well.

The edge looks convex. That is common on a first knife. While that is a good type edge for rough use knives, it will create wedging on such a thick blade. It also could use more sanding to get a smoother finish.

Like Triton, I am not a fan of the shape of the handle or blade. While it looks cool, it is not robust. The narrow neck at the handle front is a place where it could break in rough use. The blade shape will not be good for batoning. For a field knife, a 3.5" blade with a 4.5" handle drop point hunter in 4.75mm steel will be a far more useful knife.

Your HT sounds good in theory, but the quench method is not good. A full quench is what you want. This fully hardens the steel by converting it to martensite. From there you temper twice, just as you did. After the blade is hardened and tempered, you can "draw" the temper with a torch to soften the spine and tang more that the bevel and edge.

For a good HT in a simple forge like yours:
Heat the blade evenly to a dull red color. Check frequently with a magnet until it does not stick anymore. Immediately quench in 4 liters (1 gallon) of oil. Canola or mineral oil will work. The oil should be warmed to 50-55°C (120-130°F). Plunge the blade straight in the oil and move up and down for 10 seconds. Keep the blade in the oil for 30 seconds more, then take out, wipe off , and temper as soon as possible.

I commend you on your ingenuity in making a forge and a knife from what you have on hand. Better equipment and tools will improve the results, but what you have is basically what I started with. Here is my first knife made in 1961. I used nails for rivets. (I need to take a better photo of it)

View attachment 2966861

Didn't have any oil on hand but heated water to 170...low as kitchen oven would go. Took about 6 minutes from time poured hot water into the empty jug where figured convection would lower temp fairly quick until the blade was ready to plunge and it was a cooler windier day so good chance it was close to suggested temp. Thanks again for the advice. It's nice to have a controlled system. Went with water instead of oil because didn't want carbonization cause trying to be more precise on this one...got the left and right center hole 5mm from each edge. It was a Lil off at first so filed it down a hair. I really liked the magnet trick. Gave me something verifiable to go off of. Thanks again Stacey.
 
The video does not play for me.

Carbonization from the oil??? Have you been watching YouTube videos? ... there is no such thing.

170°F water is not the same as 130°F oil. You will get a poor mix of structures with bainite, martensite, pearlite, and retained austenite. Actually, it would be impossible to guess what te final knife structure is. Probably not good, though.

I am going to make a suggestion that you read the metallurgy stickys and also make a strong suggestion to buy Dr. Larrin Thomas' book Knife Engineering. The info and charts will help you improve a lot.

Your knives are good first knives, but I would suggest you start making some standard knife shapes, like a drop point hunter, a basic kitchen knife, or eve a small Bowie. These shapes will teach you how to control your forging and grinding to get a desired shape. The knives you have done so far are pretty typical of first knives and have too much curves and swoops. This may look cool, but shows lack of experience. Nothing wrong with that, as we all made knives like that when we started.

Things to work on:
1) Crisp lines and bevels. Rounded bevels don't look good , and don't cut well.
2) Straighter spines and alignment with the tang/handle. This is optically more pleasing, and more efficient on most knives.
3) Improved HT procedures that align with metallurgical principles. You really should get a gallon of Park's #50 quench oil. The difference will be amazing. If that is not possible, get a gallon of mineral oil or Canola oil. Park's is used at room temp (60-90°F). All other oils are used at 120-130°F. If using a "water" quench, make a brine solution of a pound of salt to each 1.33 gallons of water. Warm it to 120°F. With a brine quench, several gallons is best. With all quenches, go straight into the quenchant, submerging the entire blade and tang. Keep it submerged for at least 10 seconds in your learning stages (there are special techniques that use timed dips, but they are advanced methods, and take a lot of experience.)
4) Look at the Knifemakers Gallery and other images of knives made by experienced makers. Get ideas on handle/blade ratios, bevels, and shapes. Use these images and ideas to make some knives. It does not have to be an exact copy, but trying to get a pre-determined result is good training.

My reasoning for all this is as a new maker, you don't know what you don't know.
Bruce Lee might have been able to throw any sort of kick or blow with great effectiveness ... but as a beginner he still had to learn kata ichi, kata ni, kata san, kata shi.
 
Thank you Linus I will definitely put that in my notebook so remember it. Appreciate it alot. May not be able to get it on this one and will find a clear two part epoxy thats budget friendly for the time being but will def get it if get to point in time where it will really be needed...for moment am just tinkering to get a feel for things. The epoxy u mention would be for something that get sum nice steel and really get technical.
Carl
They sell clear jb weld at the Lowes here. Not sure about Wisconsin...
 
There's a Lowe's nearby. Haven't been there in long time. Will check it out. Thank you.
 
Carbonization is a word my friend, a retired Sergeant First Class / infantry welder.....he said if i quenched in used motor oil it would create a neat effect so thats what I had used for the wood handle one to see what he meant. It did cause the carbon in the used motor oil to bake a coating on the blade that really was beautiful after tempered it. He gave me idea to use vehicle hub as a forge as well. I am working with nothing but materials have on hand and am flat broke at the moment so it really is about experimenting to pass a Lil down time so not going stir crazy between jobs. I totally appreciate your recommendations and have a list of books in my Amazon list and will most defiantly be adding that book to it because I like to have a keep notes research and development on my phone where take screen shots and links and what not and then email them to myself so have digital copies saved so if phone breaks don't lose them and I most defiantly keep a handwritten notebook of key information and buy alot of books as well incase the power goes out. Ive got all the Bruce Lee books...huge fan of the man and his philosophy. Thank you so very much for steering me in the right direction to find technical information.
 
The video does not play for me.

Carbonization from the oil??? Have you been watching YouTube videos? ... there is no such thing.

170°F water is not the same as 130°F oil. You will get a poor mix of structures with bainite, martensite, pearlite, and retained austenite. Actually, it would be impossible to guess what te final knife structure is. Probably not good, though.

I am going to make a suggestion that you read the metallurgy stickys and also make a strong suggestion to buy Dr. Larrin Thomas' book Knife Engineering. The info and charts will help you improve a lot.

Your knives are good first knives, but I would suggest you start making some standard knife shapes, like a drop point hunter, a basic kitchen knife, or eve a small Bowie. These shapes will teach you how to control your forging and grinding to get a desired shape. The knives you have done so far are pretty typical of first knives and have too much curves and swoops. This may look cool, but shows lack of experience. Nothing wrong with that, as we all made knives like that when we started.

Things to work on:
1) Crisp lines and bevels. Rounded bevels don't look good , and don't cut well.
2) Straighter spines and alignment with the tang/handle. This is optically more pleasing, and more efficient on most knives.
3) Improved HT procedures that align with metallurgical principles. You really should get a gallon of Park's #50 quench oil. The difference will be amazing. If that is not possible, get a gallon of mineral oil or Canola oil. Park's is used at room temp (60-90°F). All other oils are used at 120-130°F. If using a "water" quench, make a brine solution of a pound of salt to each 1.33 gallons of water. Warm it to 120°F. With a brine quench, several gallons is best. With all quenches, go straight into the quenchant, submerging the entire blade and tang. Keep it submerged for at least 10 seconds in your learning stages (there are special techniques that use timed dips, but they are advanced methods, and take a lot of experience.)
4) Look at the Knifemakers Gallery and other images of knives made by experienced makers. Get ideas on handle/blade ratios, bevels, and shapes. Use these images and ideas to make some knives. It does not have to be an exact copy, but trying to get a pre-determined result is good training.

My reasoning for all this is as a new maker, you don't know what you don't know.
Bruce Lee might have been able to throw any sort of kick or blow with great effectiveness ... but as a beginner he still had to learn kata ichi, kata ni, kata san, kata shi.
Currently building a wooden dummy as well. Have the body and leg started fairly well and need to find few more nice dead branches from the woods to make the arms. A proper one with the two horizontal slats running parallel to the arms n legs so it will spring right. Thank you again for your time, Sir.
 
The video does not play for me.

Carbonization from the oil??? Have you been watching YouTube videos? ... there is no such thing.

170°F water is not the same as 130°F oil. You will get a poor mix of structures with bainite, martensite, pearlite, and retained austenite. Actually, it would be impossible to guess what te final knife structure is. Probably not good, though.

I am going to make a suggestion that you read the metallurgy stickys and also make a strong suggestion to buy Dr. Larrin Thomas' book Knife Engineering. The info and charts will help you improve a lot.

Your knives are good first knives, but I would suggest you start making some standard knife shapes, like a drop point hunter, a basic kitchen knife, or eve a small Bowie. These shapes will teach you how to control your forging and grinding to get a desired shape. The knives you have done so far are pretty typical of first knives and have too much curves and swoops. This may look cool, but shows lack of experience. Nothing wrong with that, as we all made knives like that when we started.

Things to work on:
1) Crisp lines and bevels. Rounded bevels don't look good , and don't cut well.
2) Straighter spines and alignment with the tang/handle. This is optically more pleasing, and more efficient on most knives.
3) Improved HT procedures that align with metallurgical principles. You really should get a gallon of Park's #50 quench oil. The difference will be amazing. If that is not possible, get a gallon of mineral oil or Canola oil. Park's is used at room temp (60-90°F). All other oils are used at 120-130°F. If using a "water" quench, make a brine solution of a pound of salt to each 1.33 gallons of water. Warm it to 120°F. With a brine quench, several gallons is best. With all quenches, go straight into the quenchant, submerging the entire blade and tang. Keep it submerged for at least 10 seconds in your learning stages (there are special techniques that use timed dips, but they are advanced methods, and take a lot of experience.)
4) Look at the Knifemakers Gallery and other images of knives made by experienced makers. Get ideas on handle/blade ratios, bevels, and shapes. Use these images and ideas to make some knives. It does not have to be an exact copy, but trying to get a pre-determined result is good training.

My reasoning for all this is as a new maker, you don't know what you don't know.
Bruce Lee might have been able to throw any sort of kick or blow with great effectiveness ... but as a beginner he still had to learn kata ichi, kata ni, kata san, kata shi.
https://flic.kr/p/2rrG41w
https://flic.kr/p/2rrHiSf

Been working on the bevels and don't like how it swoops up in the center of the curved edge. The short flat tip on the doubled edged section near tip I like. Thinking need to take more material off near the hinge hole to blend in that deeper swoop in middle.

Its currently 4 and 5/8 inches long and 2.67mm at thickest point which is point in the pic of spine where the flat bevel terminates into smooth spine. Found some small brad nails and would like to drill three more holes through the scales so can add a few pins when join the scales together before peen them together and sandwich the blade in. It sure is tricky getting both sides symmetric. Im also going to rework the geometry of the wood handle one some more and get it down to the mm you suggested earlier, after get this one to point where I'm ready for epoxy. Trying to get the blade to final shape first so I can trace it on one of the pieces of aluminum to make a lock. Also going to make a new wood wedge because made that one same as for when restore straight razors and realized the fat spine of those stops it from pivoting straight threw so want to make the proper one be like first wedge I made but with a triangle on the flat edge to stop the tip of knife. I also prepped a wooden sheath ive been working on so my 5 five year old nephew can glue some leather to it tommorow when he visits. I got a cheap 1095 katana off Amazon awhile ago and beat it apart with a rubber deadblow hammer because it was epoxied together and wanted to be able to take the handle of to practice making my own handle for it so when get to point am able to forge a katana I will use the cheap one as a template because found some really beautiful guards for it...its a long term goal. The cheap katana came with a black lacquered sheath and it was too shiny so sanded it down and did some leather work for comfort in the cold. It was also rattling when first got it so after test cutting with it and getting everything shimmed and worn into place it now feels and works like a katana should. I also made a wooden boken to practice getting the feel for the shape and because made a small Sabre for him and we wrapped em in foam so we can sword fight. He also wanted me to make em a walking stick after he saw me working on a walking/ shooting stick for deer season and coyote hunting...the bottom end has a spot where a branch was so can use it as a rest. He's only allowed to train with an airport handgun for now but looking forward to em getting a Lil buck daisy when he's ready and earns it so he can practice his rifle skills.
https://flic.kr/p/2rrHsjb
 
We were using the word carbonization in the sense of heating things in a low to no oxygen environment like how make char cloth for starting fires with flint and steel by cutting denim jeans and placeing them in a metal tin and ...or make charcoal or coke...we were discussing how the junk in the used oil produces a carbon rich film or layer due to the high heat and low oxygen of the plunge... I struggle with words and am trying to learn the correct terminology of things to communicate better. He was telling me how it's a good cheap way to practice tempering and it makes a layer that sort of helps prevent rust...like a patina kinda
 
I got the video to play with that last link. Your quench method for a water quench was pretty good. It would have been a better quenchant if it was brine, but it probably hardened the blade. The big pot would have been a better quench tank volume wise.
The way to heat a quench tank is to heat a bar of steel or iron in the forge red hot and plunge it in the tank, stir around for a little while and check the temperature. Repeat as necessary until the quenchant is 130-140°F. It will drop a little while you get the blade heated and be right where you want it by quench time. many folks weld a larger chunk of steel or large ball bearing on the end of a piece of rebar as their "tank heater".

A lot of the misconceptions you have are covered in the Metallurgy Stickys and info.
There is a Custom Search Engine in the Stickys that will find many threads and articles on knifemaking and the metallurgy of it. Searching the term, "what is decarb" will teach you a lot without buying any books. Same for "how to make a knife", "how to get start forging", "Heat Treatment in a forge", etc.

Used motor oil is not a good quenchant. The quench speed is too slow for most knife steels. It also gives off a nasty smoke.

The colors on the outside of a blade after a quench is just surface oxides and maybe some burned on crud from the used motor oil. It all is ground/sanded away after the blade is tempered.

When a carbon steel blade is heated to 1400-1500°F for the quench. the surface is exposed to the oxygen in the air. If the blade is heated in a forge, the temperatures, especially at the tip and edge, may be far higher than this.
This causes the exposed carbon on the steels surface to combine and form CO2 and CO. The surface now has a thin layer of steel with little to no carbon. This layer is called decarb. Because decarb has no carbon, it is very soft. It is usually somewhere between .002" and .005" thick. At the edge, it may be deeper. Once the knife has been hardened and tempered, this layer needs to be ground/sanded away. Technically, you could just sharpen the knife until you got a hard edge, but the bevels would look blotchy or gray. The proper method is to start sanding with 120 grit paper or belts and remove it down to the hard and shiny steel. Once removed, the surface is sanded up to the desired finish, usually 400 grit or higher. The way most of us check to make sure it s all gone is to etch the blade in Ferric Chloride or other acid etchant. The steel with carbon will turn dark, but the decarb will be gray looking.

If you can't purchase a gallon of mineral oil or canola oil, use brine. No need for cooking salt, any rock salt or ice melt will work. Make up 4 gallons and keep it in a a 5-gallon drywall bucket with a lid. It will last for hundreds of quenches. Put a line on the outside of the bucket at the water level. If the level drops, just add a little water to bring it back up. You want about a 9% solution, which is one pound salt to 1.33 gallons water.
 
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Ive got water softener salt, a drywall bucket with a lid and water. The water from the well has alot of calcium in it because live above a limestone aquifer so i will gather water from the dehumidifier thats pulling water out of the air...imagine it has less stuff in it then water thats soaked up minerals leaching threw the ground. i may need to throw out some old compound in it and clean it up some and I do have a scale that accurately weighs amounts would need to make solution = Total pump up. I'll be able to make a brine for now have a gallon park's #50 in Amazon list as well. Got some concrete jobs coming up as well so will be good to formulate essentials to get before hand. Got an extra meat thermometer to check temps with as well. 1 us gallon of water is 8.34 lbs so 1.33 gallons is 11.9 lbs. 4 gallons is 33.36 lbs...33.36 lbs / 11.9 lbs = 3.008115....so will mix 33.36 lbs of water and 3.01 lbs of salt.

It destroyed my Lil magnet tho. When researched why learned about curie temperature and plan to remagnetize once I get a better magnet. I do have a better magnet and some more tools stored at another location and will be able to do more when get stuff from there. That was really neat learning experience. My grandfather once told me and I've never forgotten it that experience is the best teacher but seldom is it the cheapest.

It sure did give off a nasty smoke and lit on fire. He had showed me the battle axe he had made and how could tell it was hardened. Showed me to flick it with fingernail and listen to the sound difference between how it sounds before quench, after quench, and again after temper...it sounds different everytime...it sounds coolest to my ear when it's brittlest after the quench. My right ear is almost deaf tho so maybe thats just me. He had used a hub off a hummer because a guy was carrying his grandfather's hammers in his ruck sack and they were like why u carrying that extra weight...the guy said they were my grandfathers blacksmithing hammers I take them everywhere I go and here we are so they decided had to make a forge...they almost got in trouble for taking the hub off of the hummer...they were in theatre but was decided battle axes and moral trumped something that could come down threw supply chain cause morale couldn't. The big pot is our water bath canning pot ...I do have some bigger pots at place have some tools stored as well and will defiantly grab one for a designated quenching tank. Ive wanted to make a knife for a long time and am grateful have the opportunity to experiment. Grew up on a dairy farm with my grandfather and he taught me to make due with what got and try best and when get chance to get better things be wise about it and don't just get everything you want, get what you need...1st things 1st and 2nd things never cause once take care or first thing well ya got a new 1st thing to take care of...

Thank you for the tips on how to utilize this forum like that this is by far one of the best designed forums I've found. I do watch alot on YouTube but its difficult to decipher good info from bunk because anybody can post on there so it's not peer reviewed. Sometimes when I research too technical of stuff it's beyond my understanding as well. Knowledge is key and is hard earned so for you to take time to share your knowledge is an honor and I thank you for it. Like Bruce Lee said as he pointed at the moon. Look at the moon not my finger. Thanks for giving me correct bearings for the search of pertinent and valuable "intel" as in more than just raw data...information that has been refined and given context to be useful for making informed decisions. I get swamped and confused sometimes when go down rabbit holes doing research. Then other times I just focus on my hands and the process to quiet my mind. It feels really good to be being creative again.
 
You don't put the magnet in the fire. You pull the knife and touch it to the magnet. It will stick up to the curie point.

Your friend may be a nice fellow, but I would look for someone with more knifemaking and metallurgical knowledge. Flicking the metal with your will not tell you much. That is pretty close to the folks who tell you you can lick the steel to tell if it hardened.

You should wear ear protection when forging, especially with a bad ear.
 
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You don't put the magnet in the fire. You pull the knife and touch it to the magnet. It will stick up to the curie point.

Your friend may be a nice fellow, but I would look for someone with more knifemaking and metallurgical knowledge. Flicking the metal with your will not tell you much. That is pretty close to the folks who tell you you can lick the steel to tell if it hardened.

You should wear ear protection when forging, especially with a bad ear.
Im a stickler for ppe...i noticed forgot to wear my safety glasses and was like well that was dumb of me. Got enough water saved up to make a solution and ground sum punches to try heat treatment again. Got some progress done on the lil wooden sheath built because the stock leather one it came has snaps and is cumbersome. Experimented with solder and piece of copper wire from an electrical cord for attachment point for the lanyard braided. I defiently need to figure out some correct techniques...found a small knife going to try copying too...its just an Ozark trail but I like the shape of it. Was able to get a clear epoxy to get back to scales. Knife making sure is fun tho and def caught the bug. The last wildflowers of the year are blooming....time sure does fly


 




Im happy with how a sheath for edc carry turned out. Was curious to see if the oiling stand would still work after attached leather and lanyard. The to use the factory sheath I'd have to take off my cheek riser because tied it into that so could tuck it into the mag holder. Took me 3.5 years to build my coyote hunting rifle...last piece want to get for it is a sharps adjustable gas key bolt carrier group.
.factory milspec one is holding up and works better after put a nickle boron cam pin in it...the factory one got sloppy quick and it affected register of groups.



 



First idea for linear lock was total failure and wouldnt of lasted long had i not ground off too much and had it worked it prolly wouldn't of lasted long because was thinking while doing it steel is harder then aluminum so this prolly isnt a good idea....made a new wood wedge/spacer, which i also won't be using now and that worked great for holding blade in place when it was closed but when opened it the blade wouldnt stop when open and just wanted to keep swinging when in open position. So am going to try forging the two lil pieces have arrows to out of some spring steel cut out of a mattress i had stripped down to just metal in order to make a dog bed, a punching pad, and a pad for doing crunches. Once cut off a section of mattress leaf spring thought its kinda small diameter but have some borax for making laundry detergent and figured that would possibly work sufficiently for a a flux so curious to see how that experiment works. Also while working on it today i wasnt likeing the flimsy ness of the straight razor peening system was previously thinking about using so scrapped that idea and while cutting matress thought this will make a good pin for where blade pivots...its too big but figure can put it in a drill and take it to a grinder and get it to fit..thinking have enough material on blade to get rid of the pointy part and shape it to get a linear lock to work. Was able to get sum permatex 2 part epoxy for making sum scales and sum g/ flex is otw because figured its the right stuff for certain application had been thinking to try to use a drill bit as a pin for blade pivot point and some aluminum rivets for the assembly of the scales so glad found a pinning solution where they can all match. Thanks for the advice to not rush. Found myself quietly repeating dont rush like a lil mantra at a few points where was getting excited. Also have ten pieces of annealed rolled steel 1095 otw and a pair of wolf jaw tongues because would like to take the advice given me about copying and making multiples of same knife etc...this is meticulous stuff. Thanks again for the tips. If can get new lock design idea to fit right would i just harden the tip where it contacts the blade for the lock or would it be best to leave it unhardened for the springiness and just accept that itll wear over time..seems like every possible solution just makes for more questions.
 

Curious to see how much better it runs. Was throwing too many small hot coals and ash...Ran it with too much air out the gate to fire clay mix good and had originally coated it thin up top to see how it would look after a few runs. Added more limestone to the ratio and finnished the firebowl. Coated the plywood in silicone incase leave it outside over night to cool down...dont want exposed edges absorbing and swelling. Was lucky found a piece of vaccum line accesory that was for switching attachments and modified it so slide gate will stay attached to pipe and all need to do is plug hose in to the coupling...that'll eliminate tape was using to test run a few times.. Figure while wait for clay and silicone to cure can prep wood for making scales and get a few things ready for when run it again
 

First tested air supply / duct system on 5/18/25

Today feel like can finally call it a forge.
If calculated mud mix correctly it should be able to withstand melting aluminum in a 4 kg crucible with lid being a piece of refractory insulation with a sight hole cut in it...for that id run lump charcoal and not wood tho. Thinking 4kg would be sufficient to pour a receiver in bonded silica sand mold with vents, gates, and sprue to compensate for shrinkage of aluminum as it cools. Time to get sum aluminum engine blocks and research how to build an anodizing system. 1095 and salt brine and a regular kitchen oven will give me plenty of time to learn the nuances of how it runs. Wouldnt mind getting a small propane furnace in the future to use as a tempering oven for stainless. Thinking also can use lost foam method in non bonded silica sand in a 1 kg furnace to make fittings for knives and sword eventually as well.
 
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