Looking for design input on resin bond diamond bench stones

Microns is the most universal measure, though one of the least-used in common conversation.
 
CasePeanut said:
I like when they show Microns, a common scale like ANSI or JIS and an easy to remember name like “coarse”. Covers all the bases.
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Exactly. It's been a surprising oversight by a lot of abrasive sellers. They'll mention a grit, which allows you to compare against other abrasives within their product range but can't compare them easily against other manufacturers' abrasives unless you have a common rating system between them. Gotta' at least have microns listed so folks can "Rosetta Stone" it into another standard and see where it fits relative to the abrasives they already have. Microns really ought to be listed by every company, though the system used by their grit supplier should also be listed since that standard also includes things like the acceptable degree of variation in grit size, etc. during the grading process. But then the kind of finish produced and the cut speed, while subjective, also deserves mentioning because grit size is only one of many factors impacting the result. :thumbsup:
 
I am thinking of just engraving the micron size on the bodies with abrasive type. Engraving on the mill is slow compared to other forms of engraving so I don't want to get carried away with it. I know the diamond powder I buy has a very tight partical size distribution so I am not sure if engraving the mesh size would be helpful. Being resin bond they will be much less aggressive for the grit than plated diamond stones so it is more for curiousity than definitive information on how they will work.

I want to order the materials today so I can pick them up Thursday when I am in Portland so I need to settle on a thickness for the 1 x 4 stone. I am thinking 1/4" looks like it would work out the best, I think 3/8" would be too thick for a pocket stone I would want to carry around. Here is the cad model of what it will look like. The undercuts on the ends will be what the paddle snaps into and would help if you hold it by the ends to sharpen without a paddle handle. This is the one stone that would make sense being double sided, but if it is double sided it would not fit in the paddle holder. If there is enough interest I can make some double sided stones later on, same mold just a different body. The thickness of the stones can easily be changed down the road, only the width and length will be set once the molds are made.

1x4-stone.jpg
 
Well before I opened this thread all I figured I could say was : From seeing your work here I am sure I am best served by keeping my mouth shut and learning from you ! ! !
Immaculate work sir ! Top shelf !
I already know your stones fit the Edge Pro so keep 'em coming.

Now that I see you are making bench stones I find I could say : leave the rubber feet off or make them removable. I prefer to get a good capillary effect between stone and my neoprene mat on the counter and she sticks down like it was glued there. No stone holder needed or wanted.
 
CasePeanut said:
I like when they show Microns, a common scale like ANSI or JIS and an easy to remember name like “coarse”. Covers all the bases.
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Yes until the silly rabbits start calling a stone like a 1200 Diamond "Extra, Extra Fine" o_O or "Super Fine "o_O
Heck even a Shapton Glass 8,000 at 1.8u isn't super fine (event though it is super fine if you know what I mean). Super fine is ~0.25u.
 
1x4 going into a special stone holder is interesting. If its truly meant to be pocketable, I've found 1x4 to be a little large. I prefer 1x3 or smaller for actual carrying. 1x4 or larger goes well in a bag, sheath, etc. Here is a collection of travel stones. The altoids tin on the left has my favorite travel stones including a FortyTwoBlades FortyTwoBlades American mutt and double-sided DMD diamond stone that is 1x3.

9QLXnAg.jpg
 
Diemaker said:
I am thinking of just engraving the micron size on the bodies with abrasive type. Engraving on the mill is slow compared to other forms of engraving so I don't want to get carried away with it. I know the diamond powder I buy has a very tight partical size distribution so I am not sure if engraving the mesh size would be helpful. Being resin bond they will be much less aggressive for the grit than plated diamond stones so it is more for curiousity than definitive information on how they will work.

I want to order the materials today so I can pick them up Thursday when I am in Portland so I need to settle on a thickness for the 1 x 4 stone. I am thinking 1/4" looks like it would work out the best, I think 3/8" would be too thick for a pocket stone I would want to carry around. Here is the cad model of what it will look like. The undercuts on the ends will be what the paddle snaps into and would help if you hold it by the ends to sharpen without a paddle handle. This is the one stone that would make sense being double sided, but if it is double sided it would not fit in the paddle holder. If there is enough interest I can make some double sided stones later on, same mold just a different body. The thickness of the stones can easily be changed down the road, only the width and length will be set once the molds are made.

1x4-stone.jpg
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So tasteful
 
Yea, this project has been dragging on for some time. No website for stones yet but it is on the list. I only get to work on this project when I don't have either production or maintenance to do so progress is slow. I did get a quote back from the anodizer on .002" hard anodizing the blanks yesterday. It came in low enough that I will be offering it as an option, not low enough for it to be the default though. I am just finishing up a batch of Matrix stones, then switchplates, then Slide Guides, then more Matrix stones, then hopefully I will get some time to work on bench stones again. The good thing about this taking so long is the designs are getting more refined, both the stones and holders. The hard anodizing is a new idea I had several months ago, I even made 5 of each grit Matrix stones with hard anodized blanks a month ago, they look really nice! The holders for both the 4" stone and EP stones are designed and I will get the aluminum for a short run of them when I get the aluminum for the bench stones.
Stay tuned, I am working on it as hard as I can while keeping up with production and they are the next products I will be releasing.
 
Diemaker said:
The hard anodizing is a new idea I had several months ago, I even made 5 of each grit Matrix stones with hard anodized blanks a month ago, they look really nice!
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Is that going to become a standard feature of the Diamond Matrix stones, or is that a special run only?
 
David makes the stones himself and is a very busy man, I don't believe he has a website.

He is a skilled Machinist and makes other parts and products, so he keeps busy.



His product offers good finish and cutting feedback and are designed to be used with a light touch rather than heavy pressure for cutting and will need more flattening from time to time depending on frequency of use and how they are used.

There will be a benchstone at a future time to be announced but there is no date for when.

David's Edge Pro Matrix stones are 1x6" and have been proven to also be effective as handheld pocket stones.

I use mine with Windex but also works with water which I believe David prefers.

The 220grit Aluminum Oxide powder Edge Pro Sells for dressing seems to condition the surface of the stones better than other methods that would either chew the resin too much or burnish the resin hiding the diamond grains.



Vicv said:
Ok I problem. I was just looking for a place with more info on your products
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Mr.Wizard said:
Is that going to become a standard feature of the Diamond Matrix stones, or is that a special run only?
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It will probably be dependant on how they are received. It will cost a bit more and is mostly a cosmetic improvement, but it looks sooo much nicer and is quite scratch resistant/proof. I got Cody to add some Matrix blanks to a polishing tape holder anodizing batch so that is what they look like. As far as I know, they are for sale, just not advertised.
 
DeadboxHero said:
The 220grit Aluminum Oxide powder Edge Pro Sells for dressing seems to condition the surface of the stones better than other methods that would either chew the resin too much or burnish the resin hiding the diamond grains.
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Is there a benefit to the alumina over SiC other than lasting longer, i.e. lower friability?
 
Mr.Wizard said:
Is there a benefit to the alumina over SiC other than lasting longer, i.e. lower friability?
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I don't have an answer for you if your looking for the cheat codes of how properties of SiC or Alumina make one or the other fundamentally better for all situations

I like SiC for my Vitrified Stones.

Seems the Alumina was nicer for the resin stones but I use a higher grit green Sic stone for my harder resins

There are also different grit sizes for different things.

I use a 60/80grit Sic for a Metallic bonded 150um

But I use a 120grit SiC for 20/14 um Metallic bond since the 60/80 tears it up too much and I chemically dress to effect after.

I don't have the cheat codes for ya. It just depends.
 
DeadboxHero DeadboxHero I wasn't asking for a universal answer as I know that's impossible; I only wanted to know regarding the Diamond Matrix stones. However I appreciate your advice/experience for the other types as well. Thank you.
 
I do have a question maybe you can answer David. I do think want this to come off as rude as it's not meant to be but I'm trying to figure out the pricing on these diamond stones
I presume they're about 1mm thick. Seems the zenev ones are as well. Now if you make an 8"X3" stone that will have 4x the surface area of the edge pro stone. 4x ~$60 is 240 for an 8x3 benchstone. A high quality water stone is ~$100. So that's 2.4x the price of a water stone. But that stone is 25mm thick. So thats 2.4x25=60. So 60x the price of one of the boutique water stones. Now I imagine the resin is pretty close between them and if you're using the same binder to abrasive ratio that's a wash it must all be in the abrasive. Is industrial diamond really 60x the price of the very best aluminum oxide?
I'm aware the diamond stones will last much longer at the same thickness. I'm not talking perceived value here. I'm talking base price for materials to product.
Again I'm not putting you down your product is priced similar to what else is out there I'm just curious why?
Thanks
 
The resin/diamond section is .062" or about 1.5mm thick. Actually I buy domestically processed synthetic diamond and it is around 150 times the price of domestically made alox, comparing a kilo and 50 lb bag minimum orders. Still, most of the cost of manufacturing is "assembly", just like other man-made stones. EP sharpens about 2500 knives a year and the Matrix stones they use lose about .002"-.004" a year of thickness. I think this rate of wear could be reduced by 4 fold if they didn't overdress them so longevity is a strong point with these stones. I am not saying all the knives they sharpen are done with the Matrix stones but still they do a lot for what should be a .001" loss of thickness and they only have one set they use for sharpening.

My target price for the 40 micron or finer 3"x8" stones is $150 unanodized, but all you get is a stone that I have made myself, to a level of quality that I use myself or better since most of mine are blemished, no fancy box, and I will do the website and photos because I am cheap and like the control. Since this has nothing to do with guided sharpening this is outside of my relationship with EP. I have had this in mind since I was doing the first prototypes for EP long, long ago. I started working on this back in 2002 so this project is way older than this thread.

Once I do start selling these I will offer members here the hard-anodized upgrade for free for the first few weeks. Considering how long these stones should last the anodizing is a really nice feature that I want to promote. They won't get all scratched up like the raw aluminum does.

PS, Asking a manufacturer to justify a price is not rude so don't worry about it.
 
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