m-tech knives

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averageguy said:
I'm convinced no one bad mouthing Mtech in this thread has actually spent $15 or $20 recently on a Chinese knife - you really can't find much to like in a cool knife that costs a fraction of what you normally spend on a knife. You just have to find a way to justify your purchases even though, shy of steel choice (those cheap steels can be plenty of tough and may survive a few days in the woods), they're all made through CAD and CAM regardless of what you paid.
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This is one of the most asinine things I've read here in a while. You do have one thing correct, I have not recently purchased a $15-20 Chinese knife. But just because it's made on CNC mills "just like" my Benchmades and Spydercos, that does not mean it's made "just like" my BMs and Spydies. They are not made to the same tolerances. They are not made with equal materials. They are not given proper heat treatment on the steel, like it would even matter with the junk they use. And most of all, they are not made with any sense of pride. And in the case of MTech, they are not made with any sense of ethics regarding the art of the original designers that they blatantly and shamelessly rip off.

And you're also quite wrong that I (or probably anybody else) has to "justify" spending more on better knives. Intrinsic quality can be appreciated extrinsically with knives, just like any other tool, machine, or fresh fruit. I would agree if you said that there's diminishing returns on value regarding quality vs cost. But when you're talking about a $10 MTech vs a $30 Byrd, that $20 difference is infinitely more justifiable than the $300 difference between a BM and a Sebenza.

So much so that no justification is needed, it's a no-brainer. Nothing, in the Zen sense, lasts forever. But it's guaranteed (not just idiomatically, but literally, by Spyderco) that a $30 Byrd will last a lifetime, and most definitely more than 3X longer than any $10 MTech. And when that MTech craps out on you, it's quite possible that it'll injure you as well.

So when you say "justify", realize that the word implies that whoever's doing the justifying is doing something immoral or unwise. Do you need to justify common sense and safety? Do you need to justify ethical morals?

The need to justify a particular knife purchase will vary person-to-person. I would need to justify to myself purchasing a $450 Sebenza instead of a $125 Benchmade. But I don't need to justify to myself purchasing a $125 Benchmade over a $50 FRN Spyderco. Many people can't make that justification. That's fine, a Delica is a fantastic knife and a bargin at its price. Even then, some people, probably those who are hard on their knives, or lose them frequently, and couldn't justify a $50 Spyderco over a $30 Byrd. That's fine too. But not being able to justify a few extra bucks over an MTech is just plain stupid and foolish, and dangerous.

Regarding longevity, if you spend twice as much, and it lasts twice as long, it's better to buy it at twice the price, if only to reduce the PImyA of having to buy another.

I use inexpensive headphones because I'm rough on them and no matter what, they won't last long. So I buy $12 Sonys (which sound just fine, better than any brand at the same price) rather than $40 ones, or $100 ones. Yes, the more expensive ones will sound better, but the cheaper ones sound good enough, and will last the same amount of time.

Conversely, I buy better, more expensive tubes for my bike because they last longer and I have to fix/replace them less.

That's the way I do things. If I spend 3X as much as you and it lasts 3X as long, and we're both happy, then neither of us win or lose. If I spend more than 3X for a knife (or tube, or whatever) that only lasts 3X as much, then that needs justifying (less PITA would be mine).

But with knives, we're not talking about a couch from Rentacenter. We're not talking about a Panaphonic or Sorny TV. There's no risk of a hospital visit with those. With an MTech knife, there is. You wouldn't buy a discount parachute. You wouldn't climb a mountain with discount carabiners. And unless you enjoy hospital bills, stitches, and nerve damage, you shouldn't buy a crappy knife.

No need to justify that.
 
We live in a time where we can be picky in what type of knives we buy. Certainly, for ten bucks you're not going to get a great knife; however, there's a wide chasm that separates truly horrible knives from just "cheap" ones.

What is it that meets peoples' needs and how does it compare with how people obtain their wants? Some people here have never come to grips with that. If a person wishes to work with wood, carving parts for that will fill other needs, clearly a serrated knife is not going to work. On the other hand, if someone spends a great deal of time in the yard and uses a knife to trim bushes and small branches, scrape crud from off a lawn mower blade and open bags of fertilizer, cheaper knives and knives with serrations can come in handy. For survival in the wilderness, a $15 fixed blade will be much more valuable that Chris Reeves' nicest little Sebenza. But if one needs a knife they can carry and they want to pass it on as an heirloom, having a more expensive, well built knife will make a better investment.

As knives go, it's really amazing what fifteen bucks will buy these days, even when the dollar isn't worth that much. Someone who doesn't have much money to spend on a knife, but who wants a knife that is tight, attractive, fairly well made and easy to sharpen, may be delighted with an M-Tech, and more, it may start a budding interest that will lead to a fascinating hobby.

People are always using the blades that come with their Swiss Army Knives, even though those blades are far inferior to those found on many mid-level knives. But because it's one of many tools, it fits a purpose, and the blades cut, and their owners are delighted. An M-Tech isn't anyone's ideal EDC, but for the price they end up in a lot of pockets. If I lived in a world of only M-Techs at the bottom and extremely costly knives ($400+) on top, with nothing in between, I'm afraid I'd be carrying an M-Tech. An M-Tech will open mail and parcels, strip wire, cut thread and plastic, plus do yard work. It won't cut carpet and it won't carve up a buck very easily, but then, neither will a Sebenza. (And let's face it, most Sebenza's don't pull heavy duty cutting jobs.)

Fortunately, there are many grades and sizes of knives in between and we don't have to pick either one or the other. At the same time, we can't dismiss Sebenzas on the top and M-Techs on the bottom, because there always has to be a top and a bottom, and we really don't want the bottom to be crude Pakistani knives that rattle when you shake them and look as though they were made in someone's spare time at a prison.


MTech_440_1.jpg


The M-Techs are good, light duty knives that are attractive
and fairly well built. The fasteners holding the frame together
are not driven it at weird angles and the blades are easy to
sharpen. They're a good launching pad to better knives.
 
The M-Techs are good, light duty knives that are attractive
and fairly well built.
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well , the one I still have , in pieces in my tool box , was anything but a good knife , it was not well built at all. After 2 openings the lock overtraveled to the other liner. I keep it now to show someone what a crap knife is.
There are far better buys in the same price range than an MTECH. And I have handled enuff at gun/knife shows to know that the example I have is the norm for this brand.

Save yourself the headache , and just buy something else. You are far better off with a $15 slipjoint or lockback , than an MTECH.

When I read someone calling an MTECH , well built or well made or a good knife , that tells me either their standards are much lower than most , or they haven't truely had a good knife to compare it to.
 
averageguy said:
The majority of low priced knives regardless of brand are made in China. Why stop at Mtech - you are implying all Chinese knives are junk. If one is just slightly discriminating, you can pick up a very serviceable knife from China. I'm convinced no one bad mouthing Mtech in this thread has actually spent $15 or $20 recently on a Chinese knife - you really can't find much to like in a cool knife that costs a fraction of what you normally spend on a knife. You just have to find a way to justify your purchases even though, shy of steel choice (those cheap steels can be plenty of tough and may survive a few days in the woods), they're all made through CAD and CAM regardless of what you paid.
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I have bought plenty of foreign made $15 slip joints , and have been pleased with most of them. It is not the price , on of my favs knives in my collection is a $25 slipjoint , it is just that the MTECH would just suck all that much more if it was double the price. :D
I don't justify my purchases to anyone , I do feel much better about buying quality.

When I handle a POS like an MTECH , I wonder to myself , who buys this poorly made knives ( I wont say designed , cause they have ripped off some good designs :jerkit: ) , now I know who buys them , you sir can have them all.
 
You guys bad mouthing Mtech - post a picture of your RECENT Mtech purchase. Yes you can still buy crap if you buy the absolute cheapest knives but Mtech has come a long way in the last few years. The fact is there is precious little difference between some mtechs made today and Japanese folders of the mid ninetees when they were the only game in town. As I said earlier these knives share the same features for the knives carrying other brands logos.

" But just because it's made on CNC mills "just like" my Benchmades and Spydercos, that does not mean it's made "just like" my BMs and Spydies. They are not made to the same tolerances. They are not made with equal materials. They are not given proper heat treatment on the steel, like it would even matter with the junk they use. And most of all, they are not made with any sense of pride. And in the case of MTech, they are not made with any sense of ethics regarding the art of the original designers that they blatantly and shamelessly rip off."

How could you possibly know these things? Are you privy to the inner going ons at these various factories. The computers do what you tell them.

I wrote a long time ago that modern manufacturing methods would blur the lines between custom and factory knives - as regards differences between factory knives - these are very fine lines indeed.

I wouldn't be surprised if there was a Benchmade knife made in the same factory as an Mtech. Right now the single biggest difference is in the quality of the blade. Mtech offers what it knows it can sell - if enough people demand a better steel Mtech will have no problem offering this as well.

Making a knife is not rocket science - heat treating is not rocket science, thank god because we depend on Chinese heat treat every day.
Our love of knives causes us to believe they are something magical but they are a very simple tool.
 
averageguy said:
" But just because it's made on CNC mills "just like" my Benchmades and Spydercos, that does not mean it's made "just like" my BMs and Spydies. They are not made to the same tolerances. They are not made with equal materials. They are not given proper heat treatment on the steel, like it would even matter with the junk they use. And most of all, they are not made with any sense of pride. And in the case of MTech, they are not made with any sense of ethics regarding the art of the original designers that they blatantly and shamelessly rip off."

How could you possibly know these things? Are you privy to the inner going ons at these various factories. The computers do what you tell them.
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Just this year, M-Tech/Master Cutlery putting out a knock-off of one of Todd Begg's designs. Since Todd is a custom maker, it's definitely not an "after hours" product.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=547242

Tanya's link of the knockoff doesn't work, so here's the link to the Master Cutlery website (M-Tech is a division of MC, as per the text on the RHS of the page):

http://www.mastercutlery.com/Catalog08/pages/01_p13.html

Third model down.

And a special highlight from the OP:

MC approached Todd two years ago about doing design work for them. Todd declined, telling them that he didn't want to be associated with a company that routinely stole other makers designs. They told us they were working hard to change that and go legit......I guess old habits are hard to break.
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averageguy said:
You guys bad mouthing Mtech - post a picture of your RECENT Mtech purchase.
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You're kidding right? If I were to waste my money on worthless crap, I'd buy some booze or junk food. More enjoyable, less dangerous, and lasts just about as long.

How could you possibly know these things? Are you privy to the inner going ons at these various factories.
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I've held them. Both new ones at stores, and used ones that people carry. If you can't tell the difference between the crap and the good stuff just by holding it, then you're ignorant or deceiving yourself. The last one I held, a former co-worker's, he asked me to sharpen it and I refused, because the POS was safer dull, and if I sharpened it and he hurt himself, I'd feel responsible.

As for thievery, as Mike Turber, Darrell Ralph, Todd Begg, Flavio Ikoma, Ken Onion, or Terry Guinn about MTech's ethics.

The computers do what you tell them.
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Do computers hand inspect for flaws? Do computers hand assemble and hand finish? Do they take pride in what they do? American craftsmen making them by the hundreds do. Machines in China don't.

I wrote a long time ago that modern manufacturing methods would blur the lines between custom and factory knives - as regards differences between factory knives - these are very fine lines indeed.
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When it comes to a $10 Mtech and a $30 Byrd, these lines are still extremely broad. Broad enough that screw heads strip, screws shear, pocket clips bend, liners wear, and blade steel isn't heat treated.

I wouldn't be surprised if there was a Benchmade knife made in the same factory as an Mtech. Right now the single biggest difference is in the quality of the blade. Mtech offers what it knows it can sell - if enough people demand a better steel Mtech will have no problem offering this as well.
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Mtech could offer a knife in S30V steel with a Paul Bos heat treat, but unless they improve the rest of the knife, it'll be a dangerous (probably moreso) piece of crap that'll fail in short time

Making a knife is not rocket science - heat treating is not rocket science, thank god because we depend on Chinese heat treat every day.
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No, it's metallurgy. And crappy steel is crappy blade steel. Good steel with crappy heat treatment is crappy blade steel. And btw, "rocket science" when talking about the Chinese isn't a very good metaphor.
Our love of knives causes us to believe they are something magical but they are a very simple tool.
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My love of knives lets me appreciate a quality tool, safe, well made, and made with pride. And it forces me to look upon with disgust and disdain a tool that is made poorly, is unsafe, and with stolen designs.

As for your love of knives, well, I have sincere doubts that anybody who plays advocate for a company like MTech can truly be considered a knife lover, any more than a guy with a garage full of Geos can be called a car lover, or someone with a Timex collection can be called a watch lover.
 
I just looked through MTech's website, and on all 47 pages of knives, not one had at least one (or several) knives that aren't instantly recognizable as being a ripoff of a custom maker/designer or a higher quality production knife. Some are even combination ripoffs.

http://www.mastercutlery.com/Catalog08/01Mtech.html
 
averageguy said:
Making a knife is not rocket science - heat treating is not rocket science, thank god because we depend on Chinese heat treat every day.
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You do ? Nice to know , however you dont speak for all of us. The heat treat I rely on daily comes out of Post Falls Idaho and aslo Wisconsin :)


If you want to be a fanboy for MTECH , thats fine , but to even attempt to justify their copies , or their crap quality , shows ignorance.

MTECH..blech :barf:
 
Damed right John!

Even the name is a rip off. MTech is a rip off of Mid Tech. I fill a page with the names of makers they have ripped off! Both custom and Manufacturers.

Decent quality? Bull Sh-t!!! Pure soft aluminum handles. Locks that fail at the least bit of pressure,( At times, even spirited opening will defeat the lock on many of their knives. Which are un- hardned), soft painted grips. Plastic in place of g-10, or micarta.
440 steel? Hardly. One thing anyone in the Knife business knows, is that if a blade is marked 440, it isn't. There are 8 grades of or take offs of 440 series steel that I am familiar with. 440-A, 440-B, 440-C, 440V, 154-CM, 154-CPM,Ats-34, And RWL-34. You will never find one of these steels in a blade marked 440. Why, because they are expensive, and hard to work with. Even the lowly 440-A is hands above what Mtech uses. And it is at the VERY LOW end of knife steels. It's basically crap. Which leave MTechs steel at lower than crap!

Good for camping and hunting. STAY OUT OF THE WILDERNESS!!! If you don't know any better than this, Stay the Hell out. Lives can and are put in jeopardy in the wilderness. The equipment one takes into the field should be dependable. A life could depend on it!
Good looking" Attractive? You bet they are! You would expect a counterfeit to look good. That is how they get sold in the first place. You have any Idea how it feels to be shown a piece of shit counterfeit at a show, in front of customers, and told that you are ripping off the public because anyone can but a knife just as good, and exactly like yours for 5 bucks. It has happened to a lot of Knife makers. Heck, we've been accused of copying factory knives with our customs, when we were the one's who designed them in the first place.

And even if all this isn't enough to steer the ignorant away, greed will still guide many. Both the crooked manufacturer, and the buyer.

It says MTech USA right on the blade for Christ sake. What part of the US is China in.

If it were, the company could not only be sued by a multitude of makers, but be charges with multiple felonies as well. THEY ARE COUNTERFEITS! And if you buy knowingly, as far as I'm concerned, your just as crooked.

By the way, for the poster that said he only buys high quality and listed the CS Recon Tanto. That was a Lovett design. Lynn Thompson had no problem ripping me off at all. but at least it is of some quality. I don't have to see one and be ashamed of what one of my designs has come to. I feel sorry for my friends Tod Begg, HJ (Kit) Carson, D. Ralph, Emerson, Lake, Walker, Paul, Horn, Crap, I almost started the page long list!

Mike Lovett
Maker
The Lovett-"Loveless Connection Knives"










































































a,
 
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John T Wylie Jr said:
When I read someone calling an MTECH well built or well made or a good knife, that tells me either their standards are much lower than most, or they haven't truly had a good knife to compare it to.
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I have only two: the one shown and a karambit. Both are only "so-so" knives, but I paid only about seven dollars apiece and they don't have the problems you mentioned. You may be correct about the ones you have, but I don't know the age of the knives, the type, nor have I inspected them. I certainly don't tout them as great knives, by any stretch, but for the price I paid and for the quality of the ones I have, I'd think they'd be fine for a 15-year old.

My point was that, given our advanced technology, even so-so knives are much better than they used to be. The only way I'd carry an MTech is if I were going somewhere where I would be likely to lose or have to ditch my better knives. I've run into unexpected metal detectors every now and again and a cheap MTech is something I can throw under a bush or somewhere and retrieve later without anxiety. My MTechs sure beat my slipjoint Boy Scout knife. I have a crappy thirteen-dollar fixed blade that's pretty awful compared to good knives, but in the right circumstances, they'd be more useful, and valuable, than some outrageously expensive pocket knives.

I'd give a 15-year old kid a good, working MTech any day and, if he took care of it and didn't lose it, I'd go to a Buck 110 and let him carry and use that. After that, he could get what he wanted.
 
Confederate said:
I have only two: the one shown and a karambit. Both are only "so-so" knives, but I paid only about seven dollars apiece and they don't have the problems you mentioned. You may be correct about the ones you have, but I don't know the age of the knives, the type, nor have I inspected them. I certainly don't tout them as great knives, by any stretch, but for the price I paid and for the quality of the ones I have, I'd think they'd be fine for a 15-year old.

My point was that, given our advanced technology, even so-so knives are much better than they used to be. The only way I'd carry an MTech is if I were going somewhere where I would be likely to lose or have to ditch my better knives. I've run into unexpected metal detectors every now and again and a cheap MTech is something I can throw under a bush or somewhere and retrieve later without anxiety. My MTechs sure beat my slipjoint Boy Scout knife. I have a crappy thirteen-dollar fixed blade that's pretty awful compared to good knives, but in the right circumstances, they'd be more useful, and valuable, than some outrageously expensive pocket knives.

I'd give a 15-year old kid a good, working MTech any day and, if he took care of it and didn't lose it, I'd go to a Buck 110 and let him carry and use that. After that, he could get what he wanted.
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Being 15 does not mean you have to put up with dung knives !
The first knife I bought my self was a SAK or an Opinel, I cant remember now but both are way, way better than any m-tech will ever be.

Spend a little more on a Spyderco, Spyderco bird, SAK or a Kershaw and get a knife worth having that will last longer than it took to arrive in the post.

Age really has nothing to do with it :thumbup:
 
Confederate said:
I'd give a 15-year old kid a good, working MTech any day ..
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I wouldnt , and I would be willing to bet , if you showed an Mtech to either my 15 yr old or my 8 yr old they would laugh at it. Why ? Cause they have far better knives in their side of the safe , knives such as Strider , BM , Kershaw , Brock , Simonich , Folts and Perrin. A bit extravagant for kids some might think , but I instilled in them early , buy once , cry once , good quality won't let you down.

Life is too short to settle for piss poor quality.

No you dont have to shell out big bucks for a solid working knife. However , that knife does have to first of all function well enuff to be safe.

Just as you would not ( least I hope not ) , drive around in a car that the brakes only worked "some of the time" , why rely on a knife that "may lock up" some of the time ?

There are plenty of bargains out there for under $30 , but M-tech is not one of them. If you have an M-tech and you like it , and it makes you happy , then I am sorry if I offended you , but the knives are copies of other designs , and poor quality at that. I think far too much of the original designers of the knives , to even consider recommending an M-tech.
 
"Decent quality? Bull Sh-t!!! Pure soft aluminum handles. Locks that fail at the least bit of pressure,( At times, even spirited opening will defeat the lock on many of their knives. Which are un- hardned), soft painted grips. Plastic in place of g-10, or micarta.
440 steel? Hardly. One thing anyone in the Knife business knows, is that if a blade is marked 440, it isn't"

That's just not true. Well, sure they are getting away with the cheapest materials they can. But as I've said before, on par with the typical folder coming out of Japan in the mid 90's.

The way you tell it, given the countless number of mtechs sold in this country, emergency rooms all over the country would be littered with the fingers of little boys and girls.

Most of us who have owned a newer decent mtech (gerber, boker, S&W, whatever) don't have much bad to say about them except amazing value like any number of Chinese goods sold here today.

I guarantee you use Chinese heat treat every day - just check the label on your appliances or research the origin on some of the parts on your motor vehicle or look in your tool box - newer house? quite likely your using Chinese fittings somewhere.

Copying designs? Name a single industry where this isn't and hasn't been commonplace forever. That's the nature of the world - someone comes up with a good design or idea and somewhere someone will attempt to produce something similar.

If you feel threatened by a pos counterfeit it doesn't say much for your knives.

"Good for camping and hunting. STAY OUT OF THE WILDERNESS!!! If you don't know any better than this, Stay the Hell out. Lives can and are put in jeopardy in the wilderness."

That's funny. This is 2008, the most camping we do around here is an overnight stay off the Blue Ridge Parkway.

The most knife using most of us do is to trim a piece of meat. There are better tools for most real world cutting applications.

Yes, Chinese folders today represent a stupid value. Get-em at these prices while you can. With the steep rise in commodity prices over the last couple of years and a push for a more affluent lifestyle by the Chinese, these prices can't last forever. Given what I am seeing today out of China I am excited by what the future will bring forth from the Chinese makers.

I understand your resentment. It seems kind of neat though that a design you inspired will be recognizable for many years into the future - it is the proliferation of your design that may insure this legacy.
 
Not to de-rail this thread (exciting as it is), I guess I just don't understand the hazard of a failed blade lock. I was raised on slipjoints (Ka-bar, Case, etc) in the 50's which had no lock at all and I never had a blade close on my fingers.
I consider a blade lock to be similar to a firearm safety..."Don't trust your life to it !" (nor your fingers).

I suppose if you're stabbing some hard object, or prying, etc you could get enough spine pressure or torque to cause the lock to fail, but for my part I'd make sure my fingers were out of the way first...or not use the knife like that at all.

I can also see that if the blade snaps off under pressure, bad things can happen, but that's not a lock failure to my mind.

Have I misunderstood the hazard here? Can someone summarize a scenerio where cutting-edge pressure can cause lock failure and guillotine your fingers?
 
once again, people cannot define their point of view and take a shotgun approach. are you complaining about design theft, Chinese manufacture in general, QC of a specific factory or brand, or what?

hilarious that in a single post you can read how a Chinese knife is made without any thoughts to quality, and then get told that a Byrd is a huge leap. It's still made in China. So is the Tenacious. And some of the Red class Benchmades. Fanboyism, nationalism, and blinders. Please guys, figure out what you're going to complain about before typing.
 
I bought one of those rough use knives about 2 years ago before Noss tested it form CTD.
Bought it just for fun, destroyed a door with it.
The sheath is a cheap pos, the handle and guard rattles, edge is misground.
Tryed it out in the woods even.
Problem is that its impossible to put an edge on it and it losses it quick.

I chuck it at a pallet once in awhile but thats all the use it sees nowadays.
 
please guys, figure out what you're going to complain about before typing.
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I think we are all complaining that M-tech knives suck. ;)


perhaps some cant grasp that while knives can be made in the same factory , that just that alone does not indicate quality of the same level for each.
If the company contracts for knives to be built for $3 each vs another company who contracts for $15 a knife , you don't think there is going to be a difference in quality ?

If you feel threatened by a pos counterfeit it doesn't say much for your knives.
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You truly haven't got a clue do you ?

now where is that ignore button....
 
averageguy said:
Copying designs? Name a single industry where this isn't and hasn't been commonplace forever. That's the nature of the world - someone comes up with a good design or idea and somewhere someone will attempt to produce something similar.

If you feel threatened by a pos counterfeit it doesn't say much for your knives.
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Being common place doesn't make it right. Did you look at the links I posted? There's a difference between producing something "similar" and a complete knockoff. That's Todds intellectual property they've stolen. Tell me, if you'd come up with something that you were using to make your living, and someone completely ripped it off and were making inferior copies, would you be happy with it?
 
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