MAD DOG KNIVES-YOUR OPINION

Donna,

I don't know what you had for breakfast but it obviously disagreed with you. Might I suggest you reread my post and pay close attention? No where did I state that I "didn't care for" the pATAK II. I reiterated that I lauded the handle and the strength and quality of the blade.
What I sought to do was evaluate it as a utility knife using applications I commonly encounter. I believe the pATAK II is a design which is a good compromise between many other dedicated knife designs. And, as a result, I'm determining if it suits my needs as a compromise.
My comment about not having joined the Church of Tactical Truth fanatics had three meanings. First that this blade, unlike many others Kevin makes, is not a tactical design... it is a utility/hunting design by his own descriptions.
My second meaning was to declare that as a newbie to his cutlery, I feel unbiased in making this evaluation, which again is NOT negative. This is a great niche knife I feel particularly well suited for aviator survival and EMT needs, but perhaps not my own personal needs. I haven't made a final decision yet and so stated.
My third meaning addresses the myopia which sometimes plagues those who are unwaivering in their support of someone or something and refuse objectivity at all costs. *I simply haven't witnessed folks pointing out the implications of design or other features in a balanced fashion.* The ceramic knives are an example. Yes, superb cutters, but nevertheless extremely fragile and prone to chipping or even breakage. Many supporters continued to emphasize the positive characteristics while discounting any negatives at all. My understanding is that the most expensive of the Mirage line has now been pulled. Why? Simply because as many as 6 units were broken in shop for every one delivered turning the negative physical characteristics into an economic issue where the cost of production and field problems no longer could justify continuance.
Does that mean all MD knives are bad. Hell no! It doesn't even mean that the Mirage X blades are bad. It simply means that you have to be clear about design and material compromises inherent. And that is all I'm trying to describe for one particular model vis-a-vis my needs.
Lastly, the term MD fanatic and the Church business have been ones that you all embraced on the other forums as being humorous. Yet you don't see any humor in my use here. Instead you expand my reference to include a whole litany of sins for which I am not guilty. Are you, as a self-proclaimed MD enthusiast, that hyper-sensitive to a bit of inferred criticsm about non-objectivity? If true you need to get a life.

-=[Bob]=-

[This message has been edited by bald1 (edited 10-25-98).]
 
Seems to me that Bob's post was quite objective and specific.

He did not say it was a bad knife...He said it didn't perform well for certain specific tasks. I daresay a MD Panther would be a sub-performance fillet knife....unless of course, in having a MD knife requires re-defineing the criteria of optimal performance for the task it is being used for?
 
looks like if several folks are trying to post at the same time weird things happen.....so I killed a dupe!



[This message has been edited by bald1 (edited 10-25-98).]
 
Here is that picture I promised. Yea, have to admit that MD are a little overpriced, and that most folks are served almost as well by a "gasp" Cold Steel blade. Just a lot cheaper, and not a bad blade either in most cases. Realistically, MD are specialized blades that perform pretty much as billed, my picture will contest to that, as my field ATAK2 shows. And yes I dig with it!

One should never accept anything based on someone else's opinion. Don't blast people for a difference of opinion, or view them some how as less of a person. Lot of folks have and like their MD blades, but that is a personal choice. I dare say that their individual use has colored their opinions greatly. For example, it only took twice, getting the sheath stuck in C-141 web seat that I moved the ATAK2 from pistol belt to Rucksac, not to mention it escaped the derision of the Jumpmaster...

Let's stay objective folks.
smile.gif


http://comp.uark.edu/~jcfrank/ATAK.html

[This message has been edited by chrisJohn (edited 10-25-98).]
 
Okay Bald, by your own words you weren't thrilled with it, You stated that you didn't know if it was a keeper, and would you jump for another knife in its stead. I didn't say that you didn't give your objective analysis.

Concerning buying a specific knife for a specific purpose, I read your analysis as stating that you didn't feel the knife lived up to its purpose.

No, I didn't feel that your use of the term fanatic was used in a humerous context. I don't know of what litany of sins you are talking about. The sin of being a knife fanatic? That was what I meant. If this is not your reference and you mean something else I have to say that I am totally in the dark as to what you are talking about. Or maybe you are just imagining things as some folks have about us on the MD blades forum.

Blues, I think that you are the one who is overreacting. The point of my post was the use of the word fanatic. Now, that is a negative word. Period. If you read what I had to say that was the point of offense. I am not speaking for Mad Dog knives on this one, I am speaking because of the negative term used to describe those of us who have partaken in the thread Bald was refering to.
You all seem to think that I misjugdged Bald's post and you see no insult, so we'll leave it at that.
 
Donna,

All I can suggest is that you re-read the last paragraph of my post you find so objectionable. Take it in context for pete's sake.

And you're still missing what's there and choosing to twist it. Did I say I wasn't thrilled with anything other than it arriving dull? I think not. Did I really say it didn't meet implied design goals? Nope. I said it doesn't serve all that well in the kitchen or as a chopper or as a skinner.....was it designed for these uses? Nope. A utility/hunter is its stated design and it'd be damn good breaking a pelvis on an elk, etc., but again I looked at it from the possibility of replacing several dedicated purpose knives in the field. Any compromise design will do most things decently but very few exceptionally. So too with the pATAK II. Will it be a more valuable tool for me than one from another maker? Dunno. Would I trade for a large Busse right now? Yeah, cause I've never handled one of those either and I'd like to check one out....that okay with you?

Blues has me right.....I'm a knife and gun enthusiast and as such could be termed a fanatic. But in my fanaticism I prize value, utility, honesty and objectivity.

-=[Bob]=-
 
Blues,
Talk about words if I recall I used a cliche when referring to Janet Reno and because I used the term "true, blue bonified" you responded with some off the wall comment like please dont label you as one of her supporters. Where the hell did that come from? Do you know a cliche when you hear one? Although there was no indication that you were joking I figured you probably were. So with your reaction to the word blue should it suprise you that someone else has reactions to other words?
 
Donna...

You are completly off topic here. If you wish to objectively state the merits of your MD knives, by all means do so.


 
Bob,
Thank you for YOUR opinions on YOUR MD. As a species, we humans love to be agreed with, no matter if it is factual or imaginative. I have seen in the past that MD knife owners tend to be just a little more defensive than others, when it comes to any critique of their product. I have no problem with that, except if it involves any honest criticism of a product being surpressed because of fear of retaliation from that product's banner carriers. Let me qualify all of this though, by stating I am in the queue for a Fat Rat. And when I receive said blade, you all can be assured that I WILL call it as I see it. If the knife is good I will proclaim it as such. But if it is not, everyone on these good forums, will know that also. I WILL NOT be intimidated by any fear of retribution. The day these forums become a one way street is the day I'll gladly leave, (not without my TCW being given though). I love disagreement, it is the spice of life, and has produced some damn good knives also. But I will not spend countless time and posts, defending myself just because I feel a certain way, about a certain knife. In closing, I AM a knife FANATIC! I love other KNIFE FANATICS, and man, I LOVE THESE FORUMS!
 
Donna,

Sorry, you are way off here.

I don't recall the use of the word "blue" in the thread you are referring to, nor would I take offense at it. I have not trademarked the name, nor the concept.

What I found objectionable in your Janet Reno post was your rabid going on about her alleged sexual preferences and proclivities, and the nouns you used to describe her.

At the end, I asked you not to think I was defending her because I am a federal officer, because, as I pointed out, I am not a staunch supporter of her personally. Even federal agents are allowed their own opinions and political bent.

I merely thought that your attack was without particular merit, and was not the means toward changing any dissenting persons opinion. (Hearts and minds.)

It had nothing to do with the term "blue".

I hope I have made that clear.

Thanks,

Blues
 
Ladies and Gentleman, boys and girls, moms a dads.

Let us stick to the issue at hand, the merits or lack their of, concerning Mad Dog knives. Refrain, from name calling, sniping and just plan being off the subject.

If you must go back and forth at each other due so in the privacy of your emails! While I applaud your intensity and loyalty, you will have to stop this bickering. If not, big brother (namely me) is watching and will have to close the thread. I was told when I took over as moderator this was one of the areas I was supposed to watch closely.

So lets keep clear objectives and debate (as dispassionately as possible)the merits or lack their of, on the custom knife or knives at hand.

As far as I know, Janet Reno is not a knife collector or a custom knife maker. So lets leave her out of this.

Thank You

Les Robertson
 
Bob, great review. Lots of good points.

A statement near the bottom caught my eye, the one where you say you would trade this knife for a Steel Heart II or Battle Mistress. What it seems you really wanted was a bigger knife. That kinda summed up a lot of the post. You were disappointed that the knife was too big to do kitchen chores and too small to be a great chopper -- but that's pretty much a given for a knife in this format, which is designed to do other things entirely. Anyway, it appears to me the biggest problem here is that you bought a knife that isn't designed to meet the needs you have, and then are disappointed that it doesn't perform out-of-spec jobs.

If you're thinking about the Steel Heart, you needed to get an ATAK, not a pATAK. If you wanted a light utility knife, you want a 1/8" Rat. You apparently don't have much use for a medium-size hard use knife. I feel the biggest problem here is, you made a poor choice of knife from the Mad Dog line.

I definitely don't want to be pigeon-holed as a rabid Mad Dog defender, but the biggest problem here was expectations.

Personally, I like small 1/8"-thick knives for camp-kitchen needs and light utility use, and machetes and the like for choppers. As you point out, if kitchen duty is your highest priority, the big guard on the Mad Dogs may get in the way. I designed a knife specifically as a light-to-medium-duty utility knife that specializes in camp-kitchen use. T.H. Rinaldi is selling it as his Tactical Kitchen Knife line now, have you seen it? That may be MUCH more to your liking in a mid-size knife.

Joe
jat@cup.hp.com


 
Actually, Bob, I just re-read your conclusions. Good knife, wrong use. Which is about what I was saying. Carry on!

Joe

 
Joe,

I very much appreciated your comments. I've never owned a thick short blade but was aware that they existed and even cited two other examples in the Katz and Becker models.

I'm in a location that has no outlets to play "touchie feelie" with good knives, upscale fountain pens, and the like. When I rolled my deposit that I'd had on a Rat over to a Sebenza, my curosity and desire for a Mad Dog knife had not been quelched. So when a dealer offered me a pATAK II and having read both others love of this model and the fact that it would be in short supply for the next 18 months or so, I figured why not. After all it was a 4.9" blade versus a 4.5" for the Rat family.

The pATAK II blade is fashioned from 1/4" stock with a flat grind and a nice taper from handle to point. The thickness necessitates the type of choil Kevin uses. The drawback is that of the 4.9" length, only 3 3/4" has an edge and of that but 2 1/2" is without serration. Add the excellent handle's finger guard and the pATAK II's useful belly for detail work like skinning or meal preparation is severely restricted. That wasn't apparent to me in viewing pictures or for that matter when first handling the knife upon delivery. As an aside I also learned that my Apex-1 can not be effectively used on the pATAK II or my Trailmaster because of their thick spines.

You are pretty close to home about expectations too. I had thought that a short stout blade might very well be an ideal dual purpose knife eliminating the need to carry both a big camp chopper and a smaller skinner-kitchen blade. I've learned that it, the pATAK II, may in fact be used that way but it engenders what *may* be unacceptable compromises for those uses... I want to test it further in real life situations to better define those performance parameters. What it seems to excell at it being an indestructible, edge holding prybar ideally suited for SERE and EMT tasks.

I do apologize for confusing the issue with the Busse reference. Just as with Mad Dog knives, I've not had the pleasure to handle or use anything from Jerry... and I'd very much like to. So I should have listed his smaller knife too so as to avoid the reader's logical conclusion that I wanted a bigger knife. Not true. matter of fact, both the talonite blades that I'm having Simonich and Rinaldi make are in the 8 inch or so overall length range, which is actually a tad shorter than the pATAK II. No it was in the length category I was seeking.

One attribute that is unquestioned is the reassuring feel that the pATAK II provides. I suspect if the chips were down and I had but one knife to count on that it would serve me well. That certainly does not preclude an examination of the design vis-a-vis all types of uses. I did try to avoid the ludicrous with something analogous to a friend having tried to carve his Thanksgiving turkey with a Trailmaster... that was a predictable disaster.

One thing you might do for me, since you did allude to design goals, is to properly quantify what a short stout blade like the pATAK, Companion or Katz is best suited to. I do not ask this in a patronizing spirit at all. I think I'm close to the truth with the aviator survival and EMT uses, but I would enjoy reading your insights. I also recall DW Alton talking about notching posts, cutting sandbags and digging into the ground with his pATAK in another thread. Those indeed are utility functions albiet military or survivalist as opposed to hunting, hiking and camping.

Again, thanks for the thoughtful reply.

-=[Bob]=-
 
Hey, Bald1: You wrote "The thickness necessitates the type of choil Kevin uses."

This is interesting. How does the thickness of the blade dictate the choil design? It seems to me that one could bring the edge all the way to the handle if desired, no matter how thick the blade is. What am I missing?

 
Bob,

I'm definitely not the best one to go through this, as I've never had much of a need for an x-stout medium-sized knife. My medium-sized knives tend to be used for food prep (especially in a camp kitchen), light- to medium-utility work, and I also like them to be capable of last-ditch self-defense use sometimes. All of this points to a thin blade, say 1/8", and some other blade geometry features.

A really thick 1/4" medium-sized knife like the pATAK seems to me to be a knife you carry only because you don't have space for a bigger one. You still want to do the heavy prying, splitting, etc., that you'd want to do with an ATAK, but don't have the room. Of course, you give up some of the chopping ability of the ATAK. You still have a really strong spine, but dang it's thick. Honestly, it's not really a good fit for any uses *I* have. Kevin is now making 3/16" pATAKs, which make more sense to me. The edge will be thinner, and it'll still be strong enough for anything you need in this size range.

For me, the knife that makes the most sense in the size range is the 1/8" Lab Rat. The guard probably inhibits food prep somewhat, but enhances safety for just about every other utility and defense use. At 1/8" it won't be a great chopper, but who wants to chop with a knife this size.

Joe
jat@cup.hp.com

[This message has been edited by Joe Talmadge (edited 10-26-98).]
 
Well, I haven't said anything for a while on this issue, so let me beat the dead horse a minute or two....

I sought – and bought – the Pygmy ATAK II for a specific role: a utility/survival blade that could be with me at all times in discrete carry mode while in military BDUs or civilian outdoors attire, kind of between the usual tactical style folder I’ve carried for the past few years and a full-size sheath knife. Think of my pATAK as the Glock 27 or lightweight .45 Officer’s model of my knife collection. Shoot, I even got a kydex inside the waist rig for it, just like my Glock.

My personal uses for the pATAK include day-to-day utility (opening packages, cutting duct tape, 550 cord, plastic cable ties, heavy carboard, paper, whatever …); meal preparation (I grill outdoors a lot); a working tool both around the house, shop and firing range; a camp tool; rescue tool (I ride a lot in military aircraft); and if need be, a last resort weapon (very last resort!).

For years I used blades from the Cold Steel and Randall line in this role, mostly Cold Steel. I had two reasons for going to Mad Dog:

1) As much as I love my tanto blades, they do have their limitations. The kraton handles eventually deteriorate and the guards can become misaligned with hard use. Witness my favorite old Master Tanto; during the Gulf War when I used it as a chisel, the impact of the mallet knocked the guard out of whack; this was easily fixed and never held up the mission. Also, about four years ago enough kraton was peeling off that I decided to replace it with something else; it now sports a cool black and olive drab 550 cord wrapped handle which, while it isn’t the best choice, works fine for the occasional carrying that I subject it to. Still ….

2) In my search for less quantity and more quality in my knife collection, I wanted to go with a handmade blade as my carry companion, something prestigious, yet useable. I had a pair of matching Randalls built (through Nordic Knives .. 90 day waiting period … cool deal!), a number 14 and 15, both with single brass guards, single finger groove handles, carbon blades, NO SAWTEETH (who the heck uses those anyway?). I love both blades, but they had their drawbacks, too. The carbon steel needs constant care (a fairly small, yet real concern), the #14 is too long and the #15 is too bulky, especially in the handle. Also – I know this sounds stupid – but they’re also too pretty and fragile for what I have in mind.

My old Randall #1 has been around the block some and it’s worn and scratched and I’ve shortened the double guards and blued the blade and rounded off the butt, so it has no collector value, even if I wanted to sell it. Even my little Morseth boot knife, it has more cutting edge than my Pygmy, and it’s lighter and more “kitchen friendly.” But I still am not about to willingly pound either one into a wood beam with a mallet or punch a hole through sheet metal or plexiglass by banging on it with my kevlar … things I won’t worry about with any of my Dogs. Following my experiences in the Gulf and the subsequent deterioration of my CS knife’s kraton handle, I also have concerns about the durability of micarta with aviation fuel or any of the chemicals I might run into with in my military role or my state disaster mission.

No, I ain’t no Navy Seal or nuthin’ like that … just a humble photographer and writer who likes having the best that I can afford. And when I found out that somebody made something that endured as much as the Mad Dog line is designed to put up with, I had to give it a shot.

To me, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I don’t have many cosmetically pretty guns; my Remington 1100 light 20 gauge and my S&W 642 are about it. I’m more of a Glock kinda guy … ugly, blunt and gets the job done no matter what.

Ergo (like that? “Ergo” ..? I got more words like that somewhere …) .. anyway .. ergo, the comparison of my li’l “Pyg” and my Glock. The Pygmy ATAK may not be the best for this or perfect for that, but it does everything I want it to do, and it will do stuff for which I hope I may never have to call upon it.

So, regarding the niche that the Pygmy ATAK II falls into, sure, there’re better blades out there … for other people and other purposes. And you know what? I might even find one, just like I once thought Gerber was the best, or Cold Steel was, or Randall …. But until then … you know my opinion*.

Don’t get too upset when a Mad Dog owner starts foaming at the mouth. I guess the reason so many of us are so defensive is that we know the truth – for us – and we just don’t understand why the rest of the world doesn’t catch on.


DW Altom

*Factor in the canine fever factor for objectivity and accuracy.



[This message has been edited by DW Altom (edited 10-26-98).]
 
Bob,

The thought occurred to me that you might prefer the non serrated Pygmy ATAK. I find
mine indispensable. Having the full blade available helps for food prep but my main use is
all around utility. The Pygmy ATAK excels at this as DW Altom has so eloquently
expressed. Even though I live in folder friendly California, if I had to have only one knife
for my daily chores in a rural environment, it would by the Pygmy ATAK. BTW, the
Operator is much better for food prep since it has no guard, but I’ll take basic set of high
carbon kitchen knives over any MD for food prep.

Colin
 
Whew! Thanks guys!

First to Joel......because the blade is so thick you have to taper the grinf from spline to edge AS WELL as from handle out....Kevin's choil nicely accomplishes this transition smoothly and that takes a bit of space.

Joe.... I've read your reviews of various knives, improvements, and of course sharpening FAQS. All have been extremely informative for which I'm appreciative. I too know the truth of a thin blade for the uses you cite.....my Melvin Dunn hunter in D2 is a perfect example. Trace is making me a modified Spook in talonite which ought to be a darned good all around short blade. Simonich is also making me a stretched talonite Tactical Cetan which will fill more of the concealed carry utility-defense role.
I guess I expected a straight grind blade despite being fashioned from 1/4 inch stock to do routine chores a bit better than I've experienced thusfar; but again, I haven't fully put it through its paces. Note DW's experiences. I agree with your comment about the 4.5" Lab Rat probably being better for my uses. Who knows...there may be a trade in my future.

DW...again my thanks. Your posts on the other forums were among those that convinced me that this model would be a good one to own. Everything you've written about applications meshes with my notion of a last ditch Aviator survival or EMT knife. One that is indestructible, keeps an edge a very long time, and whose feel is reassuring. My objectives were somewhat tangental to yours. I too wanted a stronger package that would in my case replace a big camp knife as well as a short skinner-utility blade. Yours replaced longer blades without compromising strength. It definately gets those jobs you describe done although the outdoor grilling has given me cause for pause. Cutting a slab of meat to see if it's done, yes the pATAK II will do that without problem. Slicing up a big hunk into thick servings..yup......but thin slicing..maybe but with difficulty. Has that been your experience?

Frankly I can't wait to try the pATAK II in camp on a hunting trip. I intend to take a thinner blade too for skinning although I will give the pATAK II a shot to see how it does. Normal camp chores should be satisfied by the pATAK as I don't intend to chop down any small trees. It did well in my garage tests. It didn't fare well for thin slicing not unsurprisingly and I'm not sure how well it'll skin although I may just be surprised.

After I make that trip I'll know for sure if I can leave the Trailmaster and Dunn, Heilscher or whatever at home and get by with just the pATAK II. I know it is a compromise design; what I have yet to fully explore is just how much of a penalty does the compromise design extract under hunting-camping-hiking use over the heavier carry option of 2 dedicated blades. It *IS* an obvious excellent choice for the survival-utility mode you employ it for!

Colin... unfortunately the plain edge wasn't available to me and as alluded to earlier the prognosis for short term availability of new production is slim.... probably at least 18 to 24 months. Had I the choice, rest assured it would have been for the plain edge pATAK. It undoubtedly would perform better for slicing cuts. The serrations do seem to help in cutting through heavy nylon rope and even cardboard (which can dull a good knife in a heartbeat). But since I do more of the type of cutting and slicing that a plain edge serves better for, your observation is right on.

-=[Bob]=-

[This message has been edited by bald1 (edited 10-26-98).]
 
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