Mad Dog RC Test Results! PICS.........

In the interest of finding out the truth, and at the risk of opening up a can o' worms, let me put forth this hypothesis:

After seeing the results of the Rockwell, I asked myself "Why would a blade that was heat treated to near perfection chip the way it did during the chopping test?" It seems like the hardness had nothing to do with it. I seem to recall that the Mad Dog was NOT very sharp out of the box, and Mike had to touch it up a bit before he did the comparative review. Could it be that the blade was badly ground? Or, if it actually WAS a reject, perhaps Kevin never finished the grind? Or, did touching up the edge before testing put the edge out of alignment and facilitate edge chipping? Or, do I have the slighted idea what I`m talking about..??!!

So many questions! All I can say is, if this blade was a reject, it sure wasn`t on account of the heat treat! It`s nearly flawless. So why did it fail so badly??!!

[This message has been edited by Steve B. (edited 01-21-2000).]
 
Man,
That is one NICE heat treat!
I think the only way to make that knife perfect would be to drop the edge hardness down to Rc60.
Either way, I'm impressed with the treat.
The results need to stand, based on this info, IMHO, of course.
I also think it's great how the point is Rc'ed in the high 50's. Genius.



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If it's stupid but works, then it isn't stupid!
 
Steve B.,

The knife was never sharpened by me. The edge was the original factory edge. It is my opinion the edge chipped because of the 62 RC. This is backed up by EVERY knife maker I have talked to.

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Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
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Mike-Wasn`t there a Mad Dog that you thought wasn`t very sharp out of the box? I could have sworn I read something like that in one of the reviews. I seem to recall that there was some question as to whether or not you should touch up the edge for fear of compromising the tests. It may not have been the one that chipped, but I thought I remembered reading that.

Is R62 considered too hard for an edge? I thought you could have a really hard edge if you were careful how you grind it. (I suppose you wouldn`t want to use it for any hig impact applications.) Where do the Busse edges Rockwell? What have other makers opinions been as to how hard an edge ought to be on a knife like this?

BTW-Where is the original review? Is it archived somewhere on the forum?

[This message has been edited by Steve B. (edited 01-21-2000).]
 
Whew Stve I will break down your questions
smile.gif


Mike-Wasn`t there a Mad Dog that you thought wasn`t very sharp out of the box?
Click to expand...
That is correct. In fact I have yet to see any Mad Dog with an edge that has impressed me more than Cold Steel, Fallkniven or Busse.


I could have sworn I read something like that in one of the reviews. I seem to recall that there was some question as to whether or not you should touch up the edge for fear of compromising the tests. It may not have been the one that chipped, but I thought I remembered reading that.
Click to expand...
You read that right here. www.bladeforums.com/tests/Page-1.html

Is R62 considered too hard for an edge?
Click to expand...
Depends on who your talking too. If you are talking to Kevin McClung...No

If you are talking to damn near anyone else...Yes

I thought you could have a really hard edge if you were careful how you grind it. (I suppose you wouldn`t want to use it for any hig impact applications.) Where do the Busse edges Rockwell?
Click to expand...
Most are 58-60 although the A2 Battle Mistress is 60-62.


What have other makers opinions been as to how hard an edge ought to be on a knife like this?
Click to expand...

The major part is we are talking about 0-1. And every maker I have talked to says O-1 at 62 will/can chip and is too brittle regardless of grind. Other steels function well at 62 but not O-1. Any makers want to chime in that I talked too?

BTW-Where is the original review? Is it archived somewhere on the forum?
Click to expand...
www.bladeforums.com/tests/

The other test is in the Magazine.

------------------
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Mike Turber
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Okay! Lets say you have heat treated a thousand knives, you were heat treating this one and something happened you didnt like, I am a craftmen and I know when I run into something that just didnt feel right to me, being the professional that I am I toss it because I dont need to test to know that something wasnt right or didnt feel right. If your a craftsman I know, you know, what I am talking about. That heat treat looks fantastic I have more faith than ever in the mans ability to produce consistant results. Can I use the pictures?
Nice Work Mike.
Ken B
 
I agree with rj Martin. There shouldn't be a clear demarcation line of hard and soft zones or the blade will have the tendency to crack at that line provided enough torque is given. And from many books, O1 is not tough at Rc62, and is prone to chip, and too hard to be easily sharpened.

Annealing the back with the edge dipped in water will leave the edge with all untempered martensite and is even more prone to chipping and will result in a sharp demarcation line between hard and soft zone. If the knife is heat treated in such a way, it is poor heat-treating.

It would be better if the blade is polished a bit after hardening and then heat up the back a bit with the torch and let the heat bleed to the edge to temper the martensite a bit and quench when the right hardness reached (judged by the oxide color formed) at the edge. uneven hardening is better than even hardening I think. But controlled uneven hardening is even better.

Please correct me if I am wrong.
smile.gif


Joe Leung

 
I guess I learned something about 01 today! I retract my hypothesis. Thanks for all the info, Mike!
 
O-1 at 62RC?
At this hardness O-1 is really brittle.
Here is some hard data on this.
In a charpy impact test O-1 at 62RC is in the 18-20 joule range.
To compare:
A2 at 60 RC is 53 joules
D2 at 60RC is 28 joules
And my favorite
3V at 60RC is 65 joules.
And with that abrupt demarcation it’s really setup to fail.
Just my 2cts
Note these numbers are from many sources and may be off a point or two.


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Edward Randall Schott
Knifemaker
edschott@rcn.com

http://www.angelfire.com/ct/schottknives/
 
WOW Ed thanks for that. I learn something new here every day!

Ken B,

You can use the pics as long as you give credit and a link to BladeForums
smile.gif


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Mike Turber
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What's a joule? Is a joule a number from a test or from a formula? Aren't Dozier knives D2 @ about 60Rc? Does the extra 8-10 joules between the O1 @ 18-20 and the D2 @ 28 make that much of a difference? Or does the difference seem greater because of the different applications that the knives are marketed for?

Does it seem that there are a lot of questions in my post?

Frank
 
a joule is a force or energy measurement.

the exact amount deosn't matter, just look at them relatively. higher is stronger on that particular test.

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Just call me Shellfish?

-ediconu
 
Opps I should have said this before.
In this case joules are representing mechanical force.
And for a wide comparison a 1” wide mill file is in the 10 joule range and a jackhamer bit is in the 500 joule range.
The charpy test involves a test piece with a notch cut in the center , In this case it is a 1/2” round notch.
The piece is placed in a fixture and a weight is swung against it.
The fixture has transducers that measure the force the piece absorbs as it breaks at the
notch.
The measurements are portrayed in graph form and show the force needed to start the
fracture and the force to keep it going.
Most charts show a average of many tests with the start and continue values combined.
Normally the higher the number the better but then there is wear resistance and
compressibility to look at to.

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Edward Randall Schott
Knifemaker
edschott@rcn.com
http://www.angelfire.com/ct/schottknives/

[This message has been edited by Edward R Schott (edited 01-22-2000).]
 
Conclusive pics, Mike & Spark!!!

"Did it all for the Nookie, so Mclung can take that ATAK-and shove it up his.."

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Yeah! Drop the chalupa...
 
In a post on TKF a member asked.
On reply to one of my questions a member said he had a MD Attak, he said it chipped on the blade very easily and he gave it away, said I would be much better getting a Chris Reeves, tell me its not true!!!!!
Click to expand...

In reply on TKF Mrs. Mad Dog stated.
If that were the case, we would have been out of business a long time ago.

Do you believe everything you hear without giving the obvious a second thought?
Look around you...

Do you honestly think that all of the satisfied customers who come on our forums to share their excitement of owning a Mad Dog knife, are excited about a bunch of chipped blades?
Really....

BTW, I am still suffering from the flu, so I may be a bit grumpy. Sorry.
smile.gif
Click to expand...

Nam Viet Vo in fact gave away his knife after the test we did here at BFC right in front of him. So yes this in fact happened. The knife above is from the first test and in the larger pic you can VERY clearly see the chips. The second test produced one large chip and not the many small chips you see in the above pic.

Cliff Stamp had a large chunk come off of one of his test Mad Dogs and when he tested another knife, the very thing happened once again.

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Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
CLICK ON THE LINK BELOW RIGHT NOW! YOU WILL BE GLAD YOU DID!
www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/001202.html
 
Cool thread. I do seem to recall, that Kevin
McClung did have his own section in BF. Is there some bad blood here? Not trying to start some **** but I need to catch up on happenings here. Private e-mail is fine.
 
paranoid,

Kevin used to have his own forum in KnifeForums.com. No, no bad blood, only 'strange' things. Search for keywords: Mad Dog, and see for yourself.


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Reynaert
 
You got to love this place.

Mike,
How did we get the ceramic coating off?

[This message has been edited by not2sharp (edited 01-23-2000).]

[This message has been edited by not2sharp (edited 01-23-2000).]
 
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