Mad Dog RC Test Results! PICS.........

Makes sense, thanx for the info JoeL!
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Kris.
 
Walt :

Isn't tempering a form of stress relief

No, stress relief is a type of annealing which basically eliminates stresses that have been induced from plastic deformation (machining and grinding for example). It is usually done at a temp so low that it will not effect other heat treatments. The most common form of tempering blade steels on the other hand actually induces a change in the crystal structure from BCT martensite to tempered martensite. Tempered martensite consists of a ferrite matrix and spherical cementite particles (in simple steels, you get other carbides in alloyed steels).

Cougar :

It's interesting that whacking the hard unsharpened edge into a cast iron vise doesn't cause the knives to break later, yet whacking the much more resilient spine with the much softer spine of another knife (softer than cast iron, I mean) is so abusive it not only caused a TUSK to break later, it even voided the "no fine print" warranty.

After MD recieved my second TUSK he noted to me in email that he did similar things with it. I asked him that specific question. Was it his intention to state that the edge is actually tougher than the spine? He never did answer that question, nor many others. It does strike me as odd how even his most intense fans can easily overlook this fact as it leads you to some very odd conclusions. If in fact the 62 RC edge is tougher than the spine, why not leave the whole blade at 62 RC? Hell, if in fact the 62 RC edge is tougher than the spine, wouldn't an untempered 66+ edge be even tougher? It starts to get foolish really fast.

-Cliff
 
How do you sharpen something at RC62? I would think a natural stone is out. That leaves you with a belt grinder, or a diamond hone. Sounds like it would be a major pain.
 
You can use natural abrasives if you want. Quartz (sandstone, arkansas) is harder than any steel and aluminum oxide (corundum, emery) is much harder. It'll go faster with diamond or silicon carbide, of course, just as with any knife.

There are a number of different properties we call hardness. Resistance to abrasion is not the same as resistance to indentation and edge-holding depends on a combination of properties (and which dominates depends partly on what you're cutting). The time it takes to sharpen a knife doesn't have a one-to-one correspondence either with Rockwell hardness or with edge-holding. Usually an edge with a higher Rockwell number will take longer to sharpen and go longer between sharpenings, but it ain't necessarily so, and it especially ain't necessarily in proportion -- a knife that holds its edge twice as long won't take twice as long to sharpen; you can bet on that.



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-Cougar Allen :{)
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This post is not merely the author's opinions; it is the trrrrrruth. This post is intended to cause dissension and unrest and upset people, and ultimately drive them mad. Please do not misinterpret my intentions in posting this.
 
There seems to be some confusion between Heat Treating & Annealing.

Iron will, at common temperatures, organize itself into an atomic structure that is called "body centered cubic." This consists of overlapping cubes with an atom at each corner, and one more in the center of the cube. But above roughly 1400 degrees F there is a change in structure to "face centered cubic" and the central atoms migrate to the faces of the cubes. This latter form is not magnetic.

Steel is basically iron with some carbon mixed in, though modern alloys have various other metals and substances as well. When steel is heated to the critical temperature (about 1400 degrees F), the iron will change to face centered, and the carbon atoms will migrate into the central position formerly occupied by an iron atom. This form of red-hot steel is called austentite. Since it is not magnetic, a magnet may be used to determine when the critical temperature has been reached (though the magnetism may be lost before the transition, so this is only approximate). Complete migration of the carbon atoms may take a minute or two.

If you let this cool slowly, the iron atoms migrate back into the cube and force the carbon back out, resulting in soft steel called pearlite. If the sample was formerly hard, this softening process is called annealing.

If you cool (quench) the sample suddenly by immersing it in oil or water, the carbon atoms are trapped, and the result is a very hard, brittle steel. Too brittle for most uses. The structure is now a body centered tetragonal form called martensite.

So, the next step is to heat it back up, to between 200 and 800 degrees F or so, depending on the desired end hardness. This allows some of the hardness to relieved and is called tempering. The amount of tempering that is desirable depends on the final use. Cutting tools are very hard, knife blades less so because they must flex under use rather than break. Tempering is a trade-off between hardness and flexibility.

Accurately measuring the tempering temperature is important. A nice, expensive thermostatically-controlled oven is great. Or, some special compounds can be applied that melt or change color at the right temp, such as Tempilstik and Tempilaq. If the steel is clean to start with, then you may notice that it goes through certain color changes as it heats up, with understandably vague descriptions such as "light straw" indicating about 440 degrees F, and purple=520. These colors are not incandescence colors, but are viewed in normal room light. The colors are due to types of surface oxidation that are temperature dependent.

When quenching, it is often very important to avoid stirring a part because this will cool one side much more quickly than the other, and might cause warping. For knife blades, as an example, move it strictly up and down during the quench.

Case hardening is a bit trickier, and involves heating the object in some sort of agent that promotes hardening at the surface. Liquid cyanide works well but should be out of the question for the home machinist. Luckily there are substitutes available from suppliers, one being called Kasenit, for example. Note that hardness is often measured using a "Rockwell C" scale, with 63 being very hard and 35 being fairly soft.

Anneling is normally done first and afterwards the steel should be soft and mostly free of stress. Then the steel is ready for grinding. After grinding is when the steel is heat treated (hardened) and quenched in what ever medium the maker desires. Most steels are quenched in a liquid solution (oil, water, toilet
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), some salt and others like A2 or ATS-34 are quenched in air.

This conversation has turned a bit "tech-talk" so I want the members to understand a bit of what we are talking about in as layman as I can.

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Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
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[This message has been edited by Mike Turber (edited 02-01-2000).]
 
Got an idea Mike, gather all the info about steels and heat treating form this run and put it in a book. You could make a few extra bucks out of this one!!!


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old pete
 
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