Mad Dog RC Test Results! PICS.........

Some people are probably getting lost here. So let me help using some info I have found.

  • Iron is a useful knife material, but it tends to lack hardness, as a result we can turn it into steel.
  • Steel is made by adding elements such as carbon, silicon, molybdenum, chromium, etc. to iron. These materials do not mix in a homogeneous form and they form quite complex structures. To complicate matter the heating and cooling of the metals causes the alloying elements to form different structures in the iron. Most of these structures tend to have phases that are primarily one type of material, such as ferrous carbide, which has a higher melting temperature. When a single material forms in a region is tends to form a single grain of metal.
  • When heated past 1700F for a few hours, the steel is still solid, but the microstructure normalizes into Austenite (Allen Blade's favorite word), and the alloying elements tend to distribute themselves evenly. After this the structure will take different forms, depending mainly upon how quickly it is cooled. At low cooling rates the iron, carbon and other elements tend to separate out at different rates.
  • As a result a slow cooling rate (such as air cooling) will lead to pearlite. This material has ridges of ferrite and cementite tightly combined to form a pattern like gray mother of Pearl.
  • A slower cooling rate will result in pearlite with larger features. The slowest cooling rates (especially annealing) tend to lead to large grains of ferrite. Under a microscope ferrite looks shiny and white.
  • A faster cooling rate will lead to a fairly tight combination of elements called Martensite.
  • If you can manage to cool the material very fast you will also have some retained Austenite. This tends to form as sharp spears shaped grains.
  • The microstructure of a metal can be determined by polishing the surface to make it flat, and then using an etchant to make the surface more visible. A microscope is then used to observe the structure. Careful observation can determine the structure of the metal. You can also use Isothermal transformation graphs (found in materials handbooks) to theoretically estimate what microstructures are present in a material.
  • The hardness of a material can be measured using a hard stylus that is pushed into the surface of the work. Hardness is a function of how deep the stylus penetrates the surface (the Rockwell C scale).

Simple physics then takes over that anyone can understand. Make something too hard and it will break or chip. Make something to soft and it will bend.

Bring a 54 spine to a 62 edge and guess what you get when you chop or stress the edge. Flip a coin to see what you get in the case of a Mad Dog knife.


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Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
CLICK ON THE LINK BELOW RIGHT NOW! YOU WILL BE GLAD YOU DID!
www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/001202.html
 
Hello,

WOW!! great Info WALT and MIKE.

WALT ,,when you were explaining the Similaritys my mind Clicked INSTANTLY on one thing i remember as a kid, going to Gun/militaria shows ect.. every Darn Japanese sword(authentic)not potmetal sword i ever looked over had Edge Chips and magnifyng glass edge fisher inclusions in them. The only other ones i seen that werent had Been Reshaped and polished, and then not used. Tantos to exibited this.


Intresting,to say the least,,makes me think of a few similarities.

Sure glad i dont heat treat like the japanese
smiths did.

my .02
See ya , Allen

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Allen Blade
Spokane,WA USA

" It is Always Better to learn The RIGHT Way, Than to Continue Doing it WRONG "

My Custom Knives :
http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/meadows/1770/allenblade.html
 
More elementary things.

metals are all formed by atoms.Pure Fe is ductile as all the atoms are aligned regularly and when we bend the piece of metal,microscopically the atoms slip between planes and move.

When carbon is added, it performed retically different. Carbon atom is much smaller, and will get between planes of Fe atom and stop the plane sliding (so that the metal will hardened).With about .05% of c present and we say that the steel is hardenable.

Ferrite, Pearlite, Austenite and Martensite are all Fe atoms in different spacial configurations, or we can say, the repeating unit is different. Heating up the steel will change the spacial arrangement of the atoms as they gain energy and vibrates more and more. e.g.FCC. Please dig out your physical chem books
wink.gif


Quenching...... can be considered a freezing action, a crystallisation.The term grain can be introduced here. When the steel is quenched, crystal growth start at numerous points in the metal and resulted in grains.
We have fast quenching medium such as water, brine. And slower quenching medium such as various oil, polymer quenchant.Fast quenchant will capture the higher energy state of the atoms and results in a higher stressed metal and slower quenchant do the opposite.

When a steel of mainly ferrite is heated up, it turn slowly into various states, pearlite, austenite etc (please consult the phase diagram of various steels).After the critical temp, the metal is mainly austenite and then SSHHAA! quenching it in water (fast medium) and it is crystal growth,the metal atoms are locked in a higher energy state and turned into what we called martensite.

It is highly stressed and will chip, crack and such. Then we temper it with much lower temperature. The martensite rearrange itself a bit to a more comfortable state and less internal stress, but martensite is still martensite.

The tempering temperature can't be too high or the atoms won't change at all, but can't be too high or the atomic arrangement will change to another thing.

Japanese smiths guard the temperature and materials used as secrets so we don't know exactly what temperature they use. I guess even Yoshindo Yoshihara won't tell the exact things so whether it is 180 or 250 degree in tempering is not important but diiferent thickness of clay provided a means to regulates the rate of cooling and it is very important to make a good blade.

Joe Leung
 
Ryan :

So when they do it McClung brags about how tough his knives are but when Cliff Stamp pounds on the spine of his TUSK he voids the warranty because of abuse and becomes a target of MD's hostility?
Click to expand...

That was a red herring tossed out by Kevin mainly to satisfy his "fans". The fact is that one of the advantages of a soft spine is that the impact toughness is extremely high. That is to say it absorbs shock really well by localizing the damage as impaction (similar advantage to bending). Note that I had described this procedure and the effects in the review which no one, including Kevin had a problem with. I also described this procedure on his group months before I actually did it, again no problems from Kevin or his fans, in fact the opposite was true. Kevin only took this stance after having my blade for several months and not having a better solution.

As Cougar later notes the shock is actually rather small, while it may seem high to some it is actually not due to the relative speeds of the objects involved in the impact and the way that the energy of the impact is dissipated. Try it your self with a cheap Ontario or similar. It is a very common practice usually for bone splitting on large game (which is far more difficult to cut than mild steel).

Cougar :

Cliff deliberately set up the highest stress situation, but if you did much chopping without taking care to avoid that situation it would be bound to happen sooner or later....
Click to expand...

Glad to see someone can look outside the specific to the general. Basically I will not use a high stress level cutting method until I have verified the blade can stand the stress by examining it with several less direct methods. These methods like the 4x4 side pry are much safer. If a blade failed like the TUSK's did during high impact chopping it could easily lead to a serious injury.

As for Kevin's 62 RC being too high. It is, even Kevin has stated so. Reasoning - in his steel selection article, Kevin states that A2 even when tempered down to 57 RC is still so brittle that you have to over thicken it to get the necessary toughness. Now compare this to Ed's data. This would mean for MD's 62 RC edge to not be brittle *by his own standards* he would have to have figured out a way to increase the toughness over the industry standard by about 400%. This is foolish and so proof by contradiction, O1 at 62 RC is too brittle for heavy duty use.

As for the car cutting, that is a really low stress level. It is mild steel.

-Cliff
 
Just be sure to take those statements with a grain of salt. Remember, he stated that the notch ground into the tang meant the knife was a heat treat failure, and now it means that the knife was CNC milled.

Also, it brings up the question of "With all this checking and testing going on, how did the heat treat failure knife make it out the door?"

Just a friendly reminder to not believe everything you read, as sometimes it will contradict everything else someone has said.

Spark

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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here
 
Hello,

My apologies Walt,
yeap i guess my answer was non responsive, i think? I never claimed to be a Metalurgist,,,,,,i just know what works!
and what doesnt.

I spend alot(have spent alot) of time talking to great makers like Rob simonich, Ed Caffery,,,Ed Schott, Wayne Goddard, Ed Fowler, Shane Taylor, Ect,,Ect.

I always Take there advice as it pertains to
Heat treating,,,,because they know there STUFF!!!!

I have also done alot of Experimenting myself
RC testing,,,Cross sectional Grain Analysis, Ect,Ect,,

Im more than happy to Always Change my methods if it produces a Superior Blade, and improves on the Previous way of doing it.

All the Metalurgical MUMBO JUMBO and Terms is all Foreign to me except for the basic Elements.

But if i can Chop a roof out, hang from the handle(all 249 lbs of me) Chop Elk Antlers into pieces. Do point Digging and Micarta Block Chopping, Ect,Ect,, I guess the terms dont matter.

There are alot of makers and non makers alike that can Pontificate on the Virtues of Cube Center faced Molicule structures, Phase Transition patterns,ect,ect,

But i want a knife to perform all the time, and everytime its needed, Knowing Metalurgical terms and being able to Discuss said terms doesnt mean much to me.

I guess im just an Unedumacated bald Knifemaker <sigh>.... 8-)


Take Care,,,,,Allen

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Allen Blade
Spokane,WA USA

" It is Always Better to learn The RIGHT Way, Than to Continue Doing it WRONG "

My Custom Knives :
http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/meadows/1770/allenblade.html

[This message has been edited by Allen Blade (edited 01-31-2000).]
 
It's well known that some traditional Japanese katanas had very brittle edges. Different swordsmiths used different methods for very different results. Some people believe quite sincerely a sword should have an edge so hard it wouldn't be able to chop wood without chipping -- in fact some swordsmiths consider chopping wood with a sword to be the worst kind of abuse and refuse to guarantee their swords not to break in half at the first swing if you are so ignorant as to attempt to chop wood with them. Most of us sword buffs consider that arrant nonsense, but there are people who sincerely believe it. That's really an argument for another forum -- I suggest www.netsword.com

If you hold to the belief "if an old-time Japanese swordsmith did it that way it must be the best way" the fellows at that site won't mind taking a minute to enlighten you ... in fact you might be surprised at the enthusiasm of some of the responses you get....
smile.gif




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-Cougar Allen :{)
--------------------------------------
This post is not merely the author's opinions; it is the trrrrrruth. This post is intended to cause dissension and unrest and upset people, and ultimately drive them mad. Please do not misinterpret my intentions in posting this.
 
Here is Mad Dog's answer to a question about how he tests his knives for their heat treating.

First off, I prefer to approach it from a "Quality Assurance" standpoint, rather than a "Quality Control" standpoint.
The difference may be perceived by some to be entirely philosophical, but the philosophy of producing high quality should be fostered at every opportunity during the production process and all of the thought processes that are attendant to it, from start to finish.
With that in mind:
The spines are left with unbeveled edges during the heat treat segments.
The edge is about .025-.030" thick prior to final beveling, depending on the knife model and grind configuration.
After quenching, the blade is first checked for straightness, then overall hardness.
After the initial "gross temper" cycle, the blades are cleaned of scale, and visually checked for defects like cracks or warpage.

The blades are then selectively tempered.
The spine and edge are tested with a testing file*, and then the blade is flexed in an aluminum jawed vise, and the edge is whacked several times into the cast iron body of the vise. No bending, chipping, cracking, or deformation is expected.
The blades are bead blasted to remove heat scale/oxidation, and checked again visually for appropriate hardness response to the abrasive blast.
Since the abrasive is functioning at a set abrasive size/hardness and nozzle pressure/velocity, the surface condition change will display the proper temper line transition area, and produce an appropriate finish quality on the blade surface.
This can be optically compared to existing control samples.

The spines are then beveled, and the knives are etched, cleaned again, and sent to the chromer. When they return from the chromer, they are inspected for surface quality, and cosmetic conformance.
If they pass, they get grips.
After the grips are on, they get final sharpened, and a hair shave test on my arms (or sometimes my legs depending on how many I have tested already that week)
Then they get fitted into sheaths, get cleaned off again, and bagged for shipment.


* Testing files are used by machinists to determine hardnes condition in steels. A set of files are hardened to a variety of hardnesses, then HRC tested and marked appropriately. A set will usually run in increments, from full hard 65 HRC down to about 40 HRC.
If the file cuts the material, it is harder than the material; if it skates, it is softer than the test material; if it barely touches it, it is as hard as the test material.
Since this test can be performed on edges where it is not possible to do an HRC test, the test marks can be obliterated by normal finish beveling procedures without affecting the overall surface condition of the piece.
Diamond point HRC testing causes deformations in the surface of the piece, and defaces it. It is valuable when establishing baselines for performance of the heat treat, but subsequently becomes more trouble than it is worth.

One such six piece set is available through MSC. catalog number 06534309 $87.99
800-645-7270
Click to expand...

Another poster named El Loco Chihuahua
asked this question.
Mad Dog: I'm wondering about your Heat Treatment. In your first post you say "...but I do not use a textbook heat cycle.
I never have, except as a baseline for performance comparisons of heat treat methodologies
developed here.
I have found that a specially treated O1 specimen can be considerably tougher at a given
hardness than another "textbook" specimen at the same hardness."
Exactly what is your heat treat and tempering process? And also, how would/does it raise the charpy value of your steel of choise(O1 obviously) at the same Rc?

Thanks

Sincerely,
Adam
Click to expand...
Great handle Adam
smile.gif


Here was Mad Dog's response.
My specific hardening and temper cycles and techniques are proprietary.
To answer the second question,
the tempering cycle and techniques make the steel tougher.
Click to expand...

My question is now to Allen Blade. Did Mad Dog ever test his knives this way? And is there really a reason to hold this info secret? It has been my understanding that Kevin's heat treating process is no real magic. Did he use some out of the ordinary techniques when you were their?

I also understand that was a long time ago and that he may of changed his process.

------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
CLICK ON THE LINK BELOW RIGHT NOW! YOU WILL BE GLAD YOU DID!
www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/001202.html
 
It's interesting that whacking the hard unsharpened edge into a cast iron vise doesn't cause the knives to break later, yet whacking the much more resilient spine with the much softer spine of another knife (softer than cast iron, I mean) is so abusive it not only caused a TUSK to break later, it even voided the "no fine print" warranty. Steel acts in mysterious ways we wit not of, I guess....

Or maybe I misunderstood that ... maybe Mad Dog doesn't do that to test the knives before he sells them ... maybe he does it to void the warranty before he sells them....



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-Cougar Allen :{)
--------------------------------------
This post is not merely the author's opinions; it is the trrrrrruth. This post is intended to cause dissension and unrest and upset people, and ultimately drive them mad. Please do not misinterpret my intentions in posting this.
 
Hey guys,

I found this interesting thread in Shop Talk from last year. The thread discusses cryo-treating blades to convert retained austenite into martensite.
http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum12/HTML/000486.html

Should Mad Dog start cryo-treating his blades?
smile.gif
Would cryo-treatment solve most of Mad Dogs chipping problems??
biggrin.gif
Maybe someone can cryo-treat one of Mad Dog's knives, put a good edge on it and see if we can improve the performance levels. I'd like to see a Tusk retested (ala Cliff) after doing this. Any other ideas out there?
 
Well Mike, the survey said that the only name cooler than Adamantium was "El Loco Chihuahua"
biggrin.gif
.

As for the HT, that always did make me wonder. I remember Jim March talking about how Mad Dog takes O1 to the Extreme, also thats why Panthers and TUSK's cost so much. because they warp(No its not so he can afford to replace them
smile.gif
).

Oh well, I'm young, I've got plenty of time to pick up all those confusing bits and pieces of the trade.

Sincerely,
Adam

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Self improvement is a hobby of mine :).

 
Reheattreating a Mad Dog knife would require removing the handle and that can't be done without destroying it. I'm not sure it would destroy the chrome plating, too, but I bet it would (not if you only want to retemper, though, only if you want to anneal and renormalize and start the whole process over). You'd certainly have to grind off the chrome if you want to see oxidation colors as you heat-treat. So after you've taken the trouble to cut off the handle and grind off the chrome, you'll have a pre-ground O1 blade to work with ... if you want to make a knife and do everything but grind the blade yourself you can buy a pre-ground O1 blade for ... um ... a bit less than a Mad Dog knife would cost you ... like, twenty bucks or so.

I posted my thoughts on the effects of cryo treatment on low-alloy steels such as O1 in the referenced thread, so I won't go into that again.

Come to think of it, maybe the anonymous owner of the blade pictured at the beginning of this thread would sell it to you for a reasonable price. It's already had the handle and the chrome removed....

If I had that blade lying around I think I'd give it a triple-draw at 375 Fahrenheit and put a handle on it. I think it would chop wood without chipping then.



------------------
-Cougar Allen :{)
--------------------------------------
This post is not merely the author's opinions; it is the trrrrrruth. This post is intended to cause dissension and unrest and upset people, and ultimately drive them mad. Please do not misinterpret my intentions in posting this.
 
Well, that would be enough to let you see the oxidation colors.
smile.gif


Besides, it would give the knife a unique look ... like Michael Jackson's single glove....

-Cougar :{)
 
Cougar,

Yes, chopping wood with Katana is really an abuse.
smile.gif


Ancient smiths test their blades by hitting it on the flats on water surface standing in a pool. Bending is ok but should have no chipping and breaking after the test. If the blade survives, then it will be taken to test-cut, usually straw-matt rolls
smile.gif
soft stuff.... of thin bamboo about 1" to 2" diameter to similate bone I think.So I would think with poor unknown ancient steel and various technique sensitive procedures that the survival rate of the swords are not great even with great smith.

Or famous smiths can have the privilege of a great swordsman test his blades with dead bodies....Yuck!!! And the result is usually documented as engravings on the tang.

Don't believe the image of katana in the film "Body Guard". It is just a fairy tale.....a katana is a killing tool, designed to cut flesh and bone.... not scarf....or wood.


Joe Leung

(you can call me a Nihonto nut)

P.S. One of my friend has a newly made katana (dated 1936), and we was practicing 2 men kata and his sword has actually cut in the edge of the Gunto I am using, made a notch on the cutting edge of my sword. And his sword has absolutely no chipping. Don't know why...... Maybe just luck, but he will not test the blade again with this kind of abuse.

I have a ATAK2 too. I wouldn't re-heat-treat it. I'll mount it on a picture-frame and print out this thread, and put the print-out at the back of the frame. It's quite memorable that a knife can get such a debate
wink.gif


[This message has been edited by JoeL (edited 02-01-2000).]
 
Hello,

As i remember as he outlined it in the above post the Steps are correct to what we did,,But i also Know we never Smacked any of the First 50 ATACK models i worked on,,,,Nor did we SMACK the Movie Knife "The Punisher" we both worked on for kathy Long.

He did Smack Teryls knife once"wife Knife"
to show me that it was Great and all the knives did this..

I never Saw a Set or used a set of Certified hardness Files of anykind,maybe he does now but not when i was there.

Also what he refers to as a "GROSS TEMPER"
was the 309/311 degrees for 8 to 9 hours.

And when he Refers to Tempering the Spine, tang Ectt. Bladsmiths Call,,,," Drawing the Temper" It was Just Fast play on the spine tang to Effect a kind of PSEUDO japanese
panel constructed Blade,but one out of Single harmogenous Steel..ie...01

I had to RUN BACK in from the shop because i almost forgot to mention the Two most CRITICAL points in my opinion.

1. We never used any thing/Device/instrument
To check if the Blades were at Critical
Temperature(ask any one about this one)
I told him ya cant judge it by EYE!!,
But Hell who listens to me!!

2. When i was there and we heat treated all
Blades were Quenched in Room Temperature
Oil(make of oil isnt important)but doing
it at Room temperature sure is(another
Told ya so).

Interesting Concept.

The wack the VICE routine is easy,,i and many others do it all the time,,,,ask
DAVID POFF,,he has seen me numerous times Smash a 5160 blade into my Vice full force
with no problems at all. Even did it with a Thinly Ground WAKAZASHI hollow ground Blade i
have stashed away.

We always just did a Very basic type heat treat as far as i was concerned/and flawed at that,same stuff
done for years by Others,,the only Difference was there was only a miniscule difference in the Edge from as Quenched hardness,,not a good thing! (my opinion only)


Cougar there is a way to get the Grips off a mad Dog knife look at the insides and then bond them back together..less expensive too than paying 250.00 for a rehandle job.... 8-)

anyway my .02

See ya........Allen

------------------
Allen Blade
Spokane,WA USA

" It is Always Better to learn The RIGHT Way, Than to Continue Doing it WRONG "

My Custom Knives :
http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/meadows/1770/allenblade.html

[This message has been edited by Allen Blade (edited 02-01-2000).]
 
Originally posted by JoeL:

[snip]

Don't believe the image of katana in the film "Body Guard". It is just a fairy tale.....a katana is a killing tool, designed to cut flesh and bone.... not scarf....or wood.
Click to expand...

Joe, I have a totally ignorant question. What if a bastard owner of bone and flesh just to be cut wears some heavy armour stuffed with all the blade-nasty stuff and carries some heavy non-blade-friendly shield as well?
smile.gif


I am no expert, but common sense tells me that weapons should be designed to perform in any circumstances. So, whether it is a "proper" thing to use a weapon do do something is different from whether it should stand it. That kind of relates to the whole Mad Dog issue too.

Just my 2 cents. Excuse my ignorant post here, YOU GUYS ARE GREAT!
smile.gif


Cheers,
Kris
 
Hello Kris,

I am not expert but I'll try to explain.

Japanese has a culture of fighting and the samurai spirit. And wearing a sword day to day is quite a fashion to them too, of course it's beore Meiji. Most of the Katana we see today are dueling weapon, used without wearing armour.

For massive contacts, there are other bladed weapons.e.g.they have spear (Yari) that has triangular cross section, Naginata, very thick and wide blades and can be so large the it is used by 2-3 soldiers...aimed for horse-legs. And the war-tie katana are different too. They will have thicker blade, more convex in X-section and they have short and stouter point so that they won't break when they are piercing armour "accidentally". And good swordsman will cut the joints. And piercing armour is the job of spears and Naginata.

Typical war-time katana is 2'1"-2'2", >8mm thick at the thickest part of the blade and with very short and stout point the Japanese call them pig's head point.
smile.gif


Joe Leung
 
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