Mad Dog RC Test Results! PICS.........

Hello,


you know what,,,,THIS IS JUST SILLY!!!!!!

I was asked awhile ago to not Post on any MAD DOG threads as it would be biased on my part ( And no it wasnt MIKE or SPARK asking me not to post) it was a few MD Tail waggers.

Well , Im going to POST!!,,,this is just WRONG to insinuate that MIKE or SPARK are trying to Sabotage MD knives REp,,,he does a fine enough job of that himself.

To all who dont know ,,I Lived ,Worked,,,,,Ground,heat treated, Made, and Sheathed mad dog Knives for 5 Months, Until
Myself and Family Left, Becuase i wasnt being PAID!!!!!! Just Dont Ask KEVIN if i worked as his Partner<sic> as he will go into a state of Denial(to bad all the magazine articles Say different)!

My Point is This,,,,,,,,,,he does make OK knives,,His Concepts Are Fine although not ROcket Science.

I know for a Fact that None of Kevins Knives Undergo a Tempering Cycle/cycles....PERIOD!!!

They DO undergo a Stress Relive Draw at
a range of 309 to 311 degrees for like 8 to 9 hours ,once.

What does this mean is Quite simple for all you MD Metalurgists out there,,,,,,KEVIN AND TACTEC are you listening?? The Problem is at that without a Proper Tempering Cylce and only using a Stress Relife Draw,,there is,
and Read my LIPS ; RETAINED AUSTENITE!!!!

RETAINED AUSTENITE is a bad thing! that is what Tempering Cycles are used for is to Let the Remaining AUSTENITE convert over to the MARTENSITIC formation thats needed to make great knives with ,,Acceptable Performance values.

If you have large Amounts or Retained AUSTENITE,,over time these Will convert to MARTENSITE or try to on there own and Cause Massive Stress Failures without Warning.

Thus the Chipping(also caused by to high a RC) THus the Failure of CLiff Stamps 2 TUSKS,ect ect,,, To prove this Fact if Mike Wants to Just Section that blade up and send it to a Mettalurgist and have him run His tests to Find the Persentage of Retained AUSTENITE in the Cross section,,,that will be the END OF THE STORY! maybee..8-)

As far as The Stripping of the hard Chrome,,,,,i see it as just another SPIN from the MD camp trying to Discredit MIKE and SPARK. I will tell you this:
IF THEY DIDNT CHANGE THE COLOR OF THE BLADE, while striping it,,then there was no harm and that Argument is MUTE.

TACTEC im sure there are a bunch(read 10 or 15 that i can Prove)that just love Kevins Work. I use to to, until i Proved that a STOCK REMOVAL 5160 ZONE HARDENED blade outperformed his,,,kinda funny after that i was only there for about 2 weeks then told i wasnt going to be given my patnership and ,,i left,,Weird huh??

Anyway Flame me if you must,,,but the Truth shall set you Free!! or atleast help.

my .02
Allen Blade

------------------
Allen Blade
Spokane,WA USA

" It is Always Better to learn The RIGHT Way, Than to Continue Doing it WRONG "

My Custom Knives :
http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/meadows/1770/allenblade.html

[This message has been edited by Allen Blade (edited 01-29-2000).]
 
Amongst all the hoopla there is some good metalurgical info being passed around. Could someone please explain what is the difference between tempering at the 310 degree range and stress relieve drawing at the 310 degree range? The ultimate result would seem to be similar but I am just speculating. Thanks.

------------------
Alex Penton
 
Well, in case anybody is taking that charge Mike might have overheated it while grinding off the chrome seriously -- if he had overheated the knife it would not only have changed the color, it would have softened the knife, not hardened it more. So that would mean the edge was originally even harder than RC62....

310 degrees Fahrenheit is not hot enough to temper steel significantly. I don't want to go into heat-treating in any great detail here because it's a bit complicated and it's been covered pretty extensively in the Shop Talk forum, but basically ... you harden steel by heating it red-hot (about 1350 degrees Fahrenheit) and then cooling it by quenching in oil. That makes it as hard as a file and much too brittle for a knife blade. You then temper that hardness by heating it again but to a much lower temperature -- in the neighborhood of 400 degrees Fahrenheit, hotter if you want it tough, cooler if you want it hard and you're willing to accept some brittleness.

There's nothing mysterious about it; it's just taking advantage of the fact that the crystal structure of steel is different at different temperatures, and if you cool steel quickly the crystal structure doesn't get a chance to change to what it would normally be at room temperature. So when you cool it quickly by quenching it in oil it retains that red-hot crystal structure until it's heated again.

In a differential temper you heat the spine to a higher temperature than the edge, which makes it softer and stronger than the edge.

You can temper the edge to the same hardness as an ordinary uniformly tempered knife and temper the spine softer than that if you want a knife with ordinary edge-holding but greater strength. You can temper the spine just like a prybar or spring and still have a good edge.

You can temper the edge somewhat harder than you would temper a uniformly tempered knife, for better edge-holding, even hardly temper it at all and leave it very hard, and still have a strong spine for prying. Knives with a very hard edge work well for some purposes, but the edge of a knife used for chopping wood needs some strength, too, or it'll chip, no matter how strong the spine is.

Austentite, martensite, etc., are names for the different crystal structures of steel. Just like diamond and graphite are both carbon, the same material with a different crystal structure.



------------------
-Cougar Allen :{)
--------------------------------------
This post is not merely the author's opinions; it is the trrrrrruth. This post is intended to cause dissension and unrest and upset people, and ultimately drive them mad. Please do not misinterpret my intentions in posting this.
 
It seems that Mr. McClung is doing more side stepping. Now he brings up an article that appeared in SWAT magazine.
Here is the story as quoted from McClung.
In the May 1999 issue of SWAT Magazine, Denny Hansen detailed the removal of a car roof using a pair of ATAKs. The officers involved in the demonstration had never done this before, and accomplished the feat by beating the spines of the ATAKs with ASP and plastic batons to effect the cutting of the steel roof material. They made a hole of suficient size to easily extricate an adult from the vehicle in eight minutes and thirty five seconds.
To quote Denny Hansen's eye witness account,
"Within seconds of the demonstration, McClung showed that the knives used in the demonstration were still quite capable of cutting seat belt webbing. One of them could even shave hair off my arm! You may be skeptical about this, as indeed I was; but since I am putting SWAT's credibility on the line, I took photos to prove what I witnessed that day.
As for me, the next time Kevin McClung tells me that one of his knives will do something, I'll be more apt to believe him. And as for now, please pass the crow again- and plenty of ketchup!"
Click to expand...

Folks, damn near any knife can do this. More smoke, more mirrors.

Need proof?

Take any knife you want. Even a POS Taiwan blade to your local junk yard and do the same thing.

Or just go in your kitchen and grab a can opener and watch how is effortlessly cuts into a tough tin can. A can opener is just cheap metal with no real sharp edges. So how does it cut through tin so easily? No I am not comparing a Mad Dog knife with a can opener but the point is that it simply is not that difficult to cut through the roof of a car especially with a sharp knife. Cutting through the reenforcement corrugation is a different story but it too can be gotten through. I would bet good money however that the test only had the ATAK go through the thin part of the sheet metal roof.

It does make for a cool story though huh?

Mad Dog uses similar marketing methods to the Martial Arts industry. I used to break huge blocks of ice or concrete with my hand. Very easy to do with just an hour of instruction. Plus it helps to have spacing between each block
wink.gif
Actually you are just breaking the first block. The rest of the blocks are broken by the mere force of the first block's impact. We used to put them on fire too.

Ever lay on a bed of nails? That's easy too.

So if you get the chance, take a fixed blade knife of your choosing and take a trip to a local junk yard. Find a car and pound your knife through the roof. Don't worry, it is not hard at all to do. Then simply use a can opener technique and cut out a section large enough to pull a body through. You can use an ASP or block of wood to "push" the knife through the metal. Again that part is relatively easy too. I think I could do it in less time than the guys above but that would be another bet
smile.gif


Mad Dog uses the old "if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull ****" style of marketing. It really does insult the intelligence of anyone who knows better.

Here is an example.

On virtually all of Mad Dog's dealer's pages you will not see the real name of the grip material Mad Dog uses. What you will see is this taken from Tactec's web site.
The ergonomic grip indexes the blade in the user's hand, thus letting the user know how the blade is presented, even in the dark. Mad Dog Knivestm uses a glass/epoxy composite grip material that is compression bonded to the hidden full tang. With a compressive yield strength of 79,000 psi, the grip can withstand tremendous punishment with no damage. The composite grip material provides 1,000 volts per mil dielectric strength - electrically isolating the user from the blade. Our grip material is also impervious to virtually all chemicals and solvents.
Click to expand...
The above is better known as G-10. A lot of words to just say G-10 huh?

Also,
The A.T.A.K.tm was the knife trial winner for Naval Special Warfare at Coronado in 1992. This knife was awarded a U.S. Navy Sole Source Justification for beating all competitors hands down and being the only knife to survive the testing.
Click to expand...

Of course it does not mention that Mad Dog lost his U.S. Navy Sole Source Justification or why.

So Mr. McCLung why did you lose your Sole Source Justifaction?
Yet another question which will never be answered
smile.gif

So I challenge David of Tactec to answer it then. Go ahead, make my day.

So his ATAK knives won sole source justification in 1992. Now let's explore this thought.

The ATAK knives he made in 1992 were so damn good the US Navy awarded him the special honor of U.S. Navy Sole Source Justification. Yet the knife we tested, in our original test, is some how so inferior to current production that we are ridiculed for even testing such an old knife which is said now to be 3 or 4 years old?

So we said fine and tested a brand new ATAK (David are you listening, I said a BRAND NEW ATAK). It still did not beat a knife costing over $100 less. I am not the only one to achieve the same results while testing Mad Dog knives against other brands. The only problem is I am an easy target since we have real time conversation here on the forum.

I bet Greg Walker would have a lot more to say than me
smile.gif


------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
CLICK ON THE LINK BELOW RIGHT NOW! YOU WILL BE GLAD YOU DID!
www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/001202.html
 
Hello,

Well im willing to go out on a LIMB so to speak, I am willing to DUPLICATE the Roof cutting Test in the same amount of time with a Double(OH NO!) Brass Guarded, 1/4 inch Full bevel Flat Ground, Zone hardened blade
with a 7 inch length from the Guard face, COMBAT PATROL BOWIE, Sound like a Plan???

I just happen to Live by Wally`s Tow yard,
who also happens to be my LANDLORD!! 8-)
I think finding Various Cars to Abuse wont be hard. I think they even have seat belts i could cut up afterwards... 8-)

I would be willing to Let anyone (MARION, your TAPING it!!) witness this Unpresedented
event(using mere 5160) hahaha!! that wishes to view it. Kevin too If he wishes to FLY on up to little ole spokane. ( he can even bring his SWAT team with him) LMAO.

So MIKE what do you think??? id even be willing to do it also with a Busse or somthing if somone wants to send me one to do it with. I mean i know its kinda Funny,,,But i only seem to have me Knives around here!! 8-)

Do you have a way to do a MPEG or such Format to rewiev the results Mike/Spark??
So the Masses can view this Profound DeBunkery of Mythical magnitude.

I`ll Do it in 2/3 weeks if i get enough Members intrest and if Mike and Spark want me too,
Email or post here yea or Nay!! Heck im going to do it anyway no matter what!!

I`ll Tape it and send MIKE the Copy of it
Uncut,nonstop tape running, no Smoke, no side show. This isnt an attempt to Smear Mad dogs Testing Methods,,,Just to Help MIKE prove his point Beyond DOUBT!!!
_________________________________

As for the Reason kevin lost the Seal contract,,besides not making them, and the other Reasons in print. Belive this or not,

He actually has said in Print, that its basically the NAVYS Fault for not Allowing Him Access to Mothballed Naval Machinery, which in his words is suppose to be available to any Contractor with a Sole Sorce
contract. Although this wasnt in Conflict until a few Naval SEAL officers in CIVI clothes spotted them being sold in great numbers at Shows.. 8-) (oop`s)!! This isnt Hearsay from me,,i read it in Fighting Knives magazine i think. Might have been Tactical Knives. I will look it up. as this all transpired after i left.

hehehe this test is gonna be FUN!!

See ya ,,Allen




------------------
Allen Blade
Spokane,WA USA

" It is Always Better to learn The RIGHT Way, Than to Continue Doing it WRONG "

My Custom Knives :
http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/meadows/1770/allenblade.html
 
Sounds like a plan Allen and I can convert any video to MPEG. I will even send you a POS knife so you can test it along side yours going through the car roof. I am not saying that your knife is not good, I am just trying to proove that damn near any knife can perform this test.

Actually how about a simple Ka-Bar 1217! They sell for about $45!

------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
CLICK ON THE LINK BELOW RIGHT NOW! YOU WILL BE GLAD YOU DID!
www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/001202.html
 
the reason he lost the SEAL contract is because he didnt deliver. Kept telling them
he's making them fast as he can, and then 2 naval officer's see his table full of them at a show being sold to civilians. Why? Because the civilians paid more and he just wanted the advertising hype anyway.
BTW, think maybe I'll email some of these threads to Dick Marcinko as he's giving MD free publicity in the new book, Echo Platoon. Let's see what he thinks and if they show up in his next book.
As I said before-all hype, no integrity.

BTW, if you had paid $800-900 for one of his knives, wouldnt you defend them here in order for the value not to go down? Hmmmm

------------------
lifter
Phil. 4:13

Dave
Wharton,NJ


 
Hello,


Mike, Send whatever you see fit,im sure it will do fine. kabar sounds like a good choice,its a pretty much a Traditional "tactical" knife. Im just going to use one of my standard run of the mill Combat patrol Bowies 7 inch.

David Poff im sure has an idea or two to throw in.

There should be no Destroyed blades,because a destroyed blade means it failed the
INSTA-SUNROOF test. oh yea and it has to be able to cut a few seat belts to.

Also onsceen ,besides those who want to travel to see this amazing feat will be, Jason Shaw A Field Training Officer for
Kootnie County SHeriffs dept. Just to have a Law enforcement Presence, and because he is a Good Guy. ( Knifemaker to by the way).
hey theres another knife!!

I dont think i will have a JAWS of LIFE there
because for one ,,,i Plan on Meeting my Time Constraint on this test and in Doing so would have Beaten the JAWS of Life and there operators anyway.

We will have a First Aid Kit, for those who are shocked by the results and Faint....LMFAO!!

DAVID Stop by in the next couple Days,,we have big plans to make Friend!


See ya,,,,,Allen

------------------
Allen Blade
Spokane,WA USA

" It is Always Better to learn The RIGHT Way, Than to Continue Doing it WRONG "

My Custom Knives :
http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/meadows/1770/allenblade.html
 
Some things I have noticed:

1. The last 14 posts were all anti MD or at least showing support for Allen's test. In an earlier post Mike Turber said let it die. Seems like one side is more interested in keeping this thing going than the other.

2. To paraphrase some of your comments, you all have done everything you can to prove your point. I agree, there's really not much else you can do.

3. There is more at stake here than just trying to prove whether advertising claims are true. This much effort wouldn't have been put into just that.

4. I am guessing most if not all Mad Dog dealers have a backlog of orders. There must be some people who like the product, people who support their beliefs with their hard earned money.

5. We're supposed to believe and trust Mike Turber's test results, the same guy who says Bladeforums isn't owned by a dealer, yet he sells knives, but not really (Maybe he learned this defense from Mr. Clinton) and bends/breaks his own rules.

6. I haven't seen Mad Dog waste much time on any of this. I am supposed to believe what he's doing is in private email. I have been following this stuff for about a year and really haven't seen Kevin do most of the stuff he is accused of. I am sure there are things that have happened in the past that have caused this much grief. I can't comment on them. Didn't see or hear it so it's hard to believe. On the outside it looks like he and Teryl are spending their time trying to keep customers happy. I think that's a better use of energy than this war.

7. Those of us that like Mad Dog knives have been called mindless cult followers. Seems like both sides have some of that.

At least threads like this increase the number of hits you can brag about!
------------------
Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with
confidence.

[This message has been edited by marklee (edited 01-30-2000).]

[This message has been edited by marklee (edited 01-30-2000).]
 
Just an observation from a more-or-less disinterested bystander (who is very amused by all that's been going on)...

"The officers involved in the demonstration had never done this before, and accomplished the feat by beating the spines of the ATAKs with ASP and plastic batons to effect the cutting of the steel roof material."

So when they do it McClung brags about how tough his knives are but when Cliff Stamp pounds on the spine of his TUSK he voids the warranty because of abuse and becomes a target of MD's hostility?

Hmmm...

------------------
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:23


 
1. The last 14 posts were all anti MD or at least showing support for Allen's test. In an earlier post Mike Turber said let it die. Seems like one side is more interested in keeping this thing going than the other.
Click to expand...
And your post would be? Thanks for the observation Mark but remember you reap what you sow. Maybe when we are done you can scrape the dog meat off the coals
smile.gif
Remember I can dig up some really mean stuff on McClung and what he has done, ask Nemo!

2. To paraphrase some of your comments, you all have done everything you can to prove your point. I agree, there's really not much else you can do.
Click to expand...
Thanks. But it seems each time we answer the call to proove our case we again get called liars, biased or whatever.

3. There is more at stake here than just trying to prove whether advertising claims are true. This much effort wouldn't have been put into just that.
Click to expand...
Your right. This is a huge conspiracy. I have nothing better to do with my time than to atack Mad Dog. Wrong! I will protect my integrity to the very end. Don't ever call me a liar and not expect a fight.

4. I am guessing most if not all Mad Dog dealers have a backlog of orders. There must be some people who like the product, people who support their beliefs with their hard earned money.
Click to expand...
I am not sure what your point is here but a lot of people are buying the HYPE and not the knife. The dealers push the product because they make money selling it. I am CERTAIN that most Mad Dog customers who buy Mad Dog knives are simply brainwashed by all the HYPE.

5. We're supposed to believe and trust Mike Turber's test results, the same guy who says Bladeforums isn't owned by a dealer, yet he sells knives, but not really (Maybe he learned this defense from Mr. Clinton) and bends/breaks his own rules.
Click to expand...
I am not a dealer. I was a distributor and I am liquidating my remaining inventory. So what your saying is that I can not be trusted because I am liquidating my inventory right here on BFC? How do you come to that conclusion? Keep in mind the rule you are referring to is that we do not compete with dealers. We put that rule in at the start so dealers would feel comfortable advertising here. We don't have that many dealers advertising here so they are not paying the bills. I pay the bills and I will make money any way I can to keep this site alive so you can come in here, at your leisure, and give me a hard time, Mark. How's dem apples?

Plus Clinton did not break his own rules, he broke the law. Big difference.

Is there some course you Mad Dog people go to to learn how use smoke and mirrors and huge amounts disinformation. I don't mean all Mad Dog followers but man it sure seems that you can be easily manipulated to beleive absolute bull ****.

We have answered every question put to us. Mad Dog has not. In fact he evades every real issue and then puts up a smoke screen.

6. I haven't seen Mad Dog waste much time on any of this. I am supposed to believe what he's doing is in private email. I have been following this stuff for about a year and really haven't seen Kevin do most of the stuff he is accused of. I am sure there are things that have happened in the past that have caused this much grief. I can't comment on them. Didn't see or hear it so it's hard to believe. On the outside it looks like he and Teryl are spending their time trying to keep customers happy. I think that's a better use of energy than this war.
Click to expand...
What war? You could say it is a war of words, but I find it amusing the other side keeps deleting theirs.

7. Those of us that like Mad Dog knives have been called mindless cult followers. Seems like both sides have some of that.
Click to expand...
Sure... You don't see the "Church of the Tactical Truth" here or anything like it. Are you saying that what we are witnessing is not unlike that of a cult like following?
Give me a break.

------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
CLICK ON THE LINK BELOW RIGHT NOW! YOU WILL BE GLAD YOU DID!
www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/001202.html

[This message has been edited by Mike Turber (edited 01-30-2000).]
 
Allen; I am confused. First, you posted this:

Allen Blade
Senior Member
Posts: 232
From: Spokane, Wa USA
Registered: Oct 1999
posted 01-21-2000 04:27 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello,
Yep looks like the way we ended up with when i was working there too.

Actually when we Heat treated the ATAK,or any model,,,the blade was heated all the way through and hardened as such, Then the blade was Inverted in a vice and the tang area was Heated with the Torch and the hardness Removed Hence the 48 RC on the tang

Then a clamp was put on the Tang and the blade was positioned in a Soapy water bath with just a portion of the Edge Suspended under the water,,,,,,then the Balance of the SPine was Heated with the torch, Playing the Torch out to the Tip of the blade.

The Edge remained hard, as it was Under water, that Demarcation Line is the water Level Line as it was in conjunction to the Water level during the Spine Draw.
Click to expand...

Then you posted this:

Allen Blade
Senior Member
Posts: 232
From: Spokane, Wa USA
Registered: Oct 1999
posted 01-29-2000 04:22 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello,(some material removed in interest of brevity-WW)

To all who dont know ,,I Lived ,Worked,,,,,Ground,heat treated,...(some material removed in the interest of brevity-WW)

I know for a Fact that None of Kevins Knives Undergo a Tempering Cycle/cycles....PERIOD!!!

They DO undergo a Stress Relive Draw at
a range of 309 to 311 degrees for like 8 to 9 hours ,once.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, Allen, but it seems that these two posts are contradictory. Could you please elucidate?

JoeL; you posted:

JoeL
Member
Posts: 64
From: Hong Kong
Registered: Oct 98
posted 01-26-2000 03:40 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Walt,
Nihonto don't have a sharp demarcation of hard and soft area. The temper line, actually hammon has many features in it in order to prevent chipping.
Click to expand...

I'm still confused. Later on in your post, you refer to the hamon as being the result of coating with clay and heating then quenching. Obviously, a hamon is a QUENCH line, not a TEMPER line.

I have read about the quenching of Nihonto; even saw the computer generated sequence of hardening in a cross section of a blade: http://marcia.energy.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~inoue/jsword/jsword.htm

I read the late, great, Bob Engnath's description of application of clay and quenching: http://www.knives.com/claytemp.html

So, I know a little about the subject. Very little. What I wish to know, however, is what I originally asked; why is a sharp line of demarcation between hard and soft metal bad in a Mad Dog knife, even if it is a temper, not a quench line. For Nihonto have had this sharp demarcation, albeit a quench, not a temper line, for about a thousand years. Yes, I know about the legs or tears of the clay on Nihonto used to produce soft areas of steel extending nearly to the edge. My understanding is that they would prevent more than a small section of edge chipping out. However, I have never heard that a section of a Nihonto chipping out was a common event. Indeed, I have never heard of it all, nor have I seen an example of it. Further, I know that Nihonto were tempered after quenching.

So, would someone please enlighten me?

Why is a sharp line of demarcation between hard and soft metal 'bad?' Walt



 
Most people doing clay tempering take considerable care to thin out the clay toward the edge instead of ending it abruptly. That makes the transition from harder to softer steel more gradual. They also make the line jagged rather than straight. Imagine you were gluing two pieces of steel together ... if you fit them together on a jagged line like a jigsaw puzzle that gives the joint more surface area. The hamon is a weakness like a glue joint.

Another way is to harden the blade and then heat the spine with a torch and watch the rainbow of oxidation colors move toward the edge as the heat spreads. If you do that with the edge in water that makes sure the edge won't get hot enough to be tempered at all. If you don't want the edge at full hardness and very brittle, you can temper it in a separate process, tempering the whole blade in an oven at controlled temperature. Then temper the spine -- or you could temper the spine first and then temper the whole blade to get the edge to the hardness you want; it makes no difference which you do first.

If I understand Allen Blades' post correctly, he's saying Mad Dog does a stress relief by heating the whole blade to 310 Fahrenheit for hours. That is a much lower temperature than most bladesmiths use for tempering ... you might end up with the edge at 62RC that way. I can't say what hardness you would get; haven't tried it, but it would certainly leave the edge much harder than the way most bladesmiths temper a knife intended to be able to chop wood without chipping.

IMHO the most significant tests are the practical tests. Rockwell testing is done by pressing a diamond ground to a pyramid shape into the steel with measured force, then measuring the indentation. It gives useful information, but ... the way we know the edge of this blade is too brittle for chopping hardwood is because Mike chopped some boards with it and the edge chipped. We could argue whether O1 at 62RC is or isn't too brittle if all we knew was the results of the Rockwell testing, but that isn't all we know about this knife.

Likewise, we could do a zillion Rockwell tests spaced one millimeter or less apart and find out how gradual the transition between harder and softer steel is and how straight or jagged the hamon line is and try to guess whether the blade is likely to break at the hamon -- but there's a more practical test: chop at a piece of hardwood and bury the edge to the hamon line and then try to pry it out. Cliff Stamp tried that with a TUSK and the blade broke at the hamon before the wood split. Cliff deliberately set up the highest stress situation, but if you did much chopping without taking care to avoid that situation it would be bound to happen sooner or later....

No one can produce knives exactly the same. Testing one knife shows how that knife came out. If you test one ATAK at chopping spruce and it chips it doesn't prove that all ATAKs will chip if you chop spruce with them. It proves some will. Trying the same test on another ATAK and finding it doesn't chip does not refute that first test; it only proves that some ATAKs are not too brittle for chopping wood. If you test one TUSK and deliberately set up the highest-stress situation that vigorous chopping of hardwood subjects a knife to and it breaks, that proves that some TUSKs will break if you aren't careful to avoid that situation.

If a $900 knife breaks and the maker refuses to replace it, others may be unwilling to try the same test with that knife. If that knife broke doing what it's designed to do, others may be unwilling to buy that knife. (They might well be unwilling to buy it even if the maker does replace the broken one; we'd all rather have a knife that won't break than a knife that will break and be replaced, wouldn't we?)



------------------
-Cougar Allen :{)
--------------------------------------
This post is not merely the author's opinions; it is the trrrrrruth. This post is intended to cause dissension and unrest and upset people, and ultimately drive them mad. Please do not misinterpret my intentions in posting this.
 
Well, let’s get the Hamon issue out of the way by quoting from “The Craft of the Japanese Sword” by Leon and Hiroko Kapp and Yoshindo Yoshihara (1987).

The chapter on page 85 is titled “Tsuchioki: Making the Hamon”

“… Japanese swordsmiths developed techniques for hardening only the cutting edge of the blade, leaving the body of the blade more flexible, able to absorb the shock of a blow or stress caused by a sudden twisting.
… This depends on the firing temperature, the carbon content of the steel, and a number of other factors within the smith’s technical control but never tested until the moment when the hot blade is quenched and cooled in water.
… The hardened edge is produced by covering the blade in clay – thick along the back and upper portions and very thin along the edge – heating it in the forge to between 700 and 900 degrees Celsius and then quenching it in a trough of water. Heating the blade over its critical temperature, …, changes the phase of the steel at which it cools. If the steel cools rapidly from the quenching, as it does where the clay coating is thins, the austenite will change to martensite, and the metal will be harder than before. If the rate of cooling is slower, as it is where the thick clay coating serves as an insulator, the steel’s structure will revert to its original ferrite and pearlite form, and the hardness of the steel will be relatively unchanged.
The exact pattern of the hardened edge is the result of three related variables:
1. The carbon content of the steel…
2. The clay coating on the blade…
3. The temperatures to which various parts of the blade are heated…”

And on page 89 the authors state:
“ When talking about hardening Japanese sword, many Western writers use the term ‘tempering’ and refer to the hamon as a ‘temper line’. Technically, this usage is incorrect. It is more proper to say that the blade is heat-treated to harden the edge. Tempering is what is done after the hardening, to make the steel less brittle.”

It goes on on page 92:
“ After yaki-ire (=hardening the edge), Yoshindo (the smith) removes the sword from the water and runs it through the coals, reheating it to 160 degrees Celsius and quenching it again. This is called tempering (yaki-modoshi) and helps relieve stress in the hardened edge by partly decomposing the large, newly formed martensite steel crystals. … Tempering may be repeated several times.”

Ok, a lot of text to read through, but it should be clear what’s going on. Main point is that Japanese sword are NOT differentially tempered but differentially hardened. According to Kevin, his knives are differentially tempered but completely hardened.

In general I would say Mad Dog knives and Japanese swords are two completely different worlds. A Mad Dog knife is made by stock removal from a uniform piece of high carbon steel, then – as mentioned – hardened and differentially tempered. A Japanese sword is made forged from up to three different kinds of steel (shingane, kawagane, hagane), some of them with 16,000 ore more (!) layers and selectively hardened. How different can blades be?
 
Hello,

WALT,sorry if my post was Confusing,

This is the way i see it:

The whole Blade is Heated and hardened,
then this blade is Put into the oven at to 309/311 temp for 8 /9 hours. This isnt a TEMPER,it only acts as a Stress Relife.
This also is not a high enough Temperature
to induce Reatained AUSTENITE transformation
into MARTINSITE.

The Heating of the Tang /Spine juncture with the Edge in the Water does increase Toughness
along thos Areas,,But under the Water line the Untempered Reatained AUSTENITE Edge is still the same. Thus the Chipping and Unexpected Failures(TUSK).this can Happen a day.or 10 yrs later, depending on the Stress Build up over time of the Reatined AUSTENITE
Trying to Convert On its own into Martensite
Thus creating Abnormal Faliurs at Unpredictable times..........Just ask ED SCHOTT we had a Lengthy Discussion about this a few days ago.

Anyway i didnt mean to be Confusing in my Post,,hope this helps.

Take Care, Allen Blade

------------------
Allen Blade
Spokane,WA USA

" It is Always Better to learn The RIGHT Way, Than to Continue Doing it WRONG "

My Custom Knives :
http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/meadows/1770/allenblade.html
 
Some of the arguments raised are basically irrelevant. We know some ATAKs have edges so brittle they chip chopping wood and some don't. Whether or not all the ATAKs with brittle edges have secret marks on the tang to indicate they are rejects (or flying saucer keys) makes no difference to anyone who doesn't have the opportunity to X-ray a knife before buying. We don't know whether the two TUSKs that Cliff Stamp broke had notched tangs or not, since no one removed the handles or X-rayed them, but it's hard to see why anyone would care if they did.

"Curious" says Mad Dog didn't do the heat-treating personally on one of the Mad Dog knives that chipped. For all we know "Curious" might be correct about that, but what difference would it make?

The whole question of edge brittleness is irrelevant to people who are contemplating buying some Mad Dog models -- if a Mongoose has an edge that's too brittle to chop hardwood, well, no one is likely to use a blade less than 4" (10cm) long to chop wood with anyway. If you use it to cut wire that might chip the edge, but people who don't use a knife to cut wire won't care about that either. Likewise it's hard to see how you could subject a Mongoose to any stress that would be likely to cause it to break at the temper line. You might find yourself prying at something with the edge rather than with the point and you might find you've inserted it right to the temper line, but it's a much smaller knife than an ATAK and you can't get as much leverage on it.

If you don't want to use a knife for chopping, though, you don't want a big heavy knife like an ATAK or a TUSK.



------------------
-Cougar Allen :{)
--------------------------------------
This post is not merely the author's opinions; it is the trrrrrruth. This post is intended to cause dissension and unrest and upset people, and ultimately drive them mad. Please do not misinterpret my intentions in posting this.
 
I have been trying to stay out of this one but must put in a .02 worth. I make mini's (the smallest 7/8 in ) to 14 in bowies, single and multi blade folders and have used O-1,W-2,A-2,D-2,L-6,S-7,52100,1075,1084,1095,15N20 440C,440V, 154CM,ATS34,5160 and some stuff that I wasn't sure of. In all of these steels and I do mean all, an edge of RC-62 will fracture if it is placed under any stress. There is no magic in this, that high of a hardness on a knife, (notice I said KNIFE) will fracture at some point in time, Period. As to stabbing steel, Ray Johnson at Silver Dolar City in Branson Mo. does it daily and has for years. Barrel killing is part of his regular performance. The cold hard facts support Mike and Allen's statments. And I don't give a damn one way or another about MAD DOG Knives!!!!!

------------------
old pete
 
Allen; I am sorry to be so obtuse, but how does heating up the tang and spine with a torch differ from tempering? Isn't tempering a form of stress relief as well as increasing toughness and reducing brittleness?

Perhaps what confused me is the way you phrased your post:

The Heating of the Tang /Spine juncture with the Edge in the Water does increase Toughness
along thos Areas,,But under the Water line the Untempered Reatained AUSTENITE Edge is still the same.
Click to expand...

This made me think that the areas which had been heated had been tempered, as their toughness increased, and you referred to the area not heated with the torch as 'Untempered.'

Further, Ralf mentions that Japanese sword smiths temper at 160 degrees C. Let's see, that is 60C over the boiling point of water, and 9 degrees F = 5 degrees C, so that is 60 x 9/5, or about 108 degrees F over the boiling point of water, which is 212 degrees, so the tempering is done at about 108 + 212 = 320 degrees F. This strikes me as much lower a temp than obtained when heating a piece of metal with a torch.

Further, you said that no MD's were tempered, but underwent a 'Stress Relive Draw at a range to 309 to 311 degrees for like 8 to 9 hours, once.' This, to me, sounds a lot like the temperature at which the Japanese smiths temper their blades, which adds to my confusion.

Sorry to be such a bother, but hoping you can reduce some of my confusion, Walt

PS: Ralf; you and I are going to have to get together soon to speak about this subject. If I can fit the Wookie (Jim March)in my 911 (it has a sun roof) we will come visit someday and you can explain the intricacies of this subject to me. Walt
 
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