"Made in Sheffield" 1830-1930, A golden age ?

[wagglebee]

Hi Rob,

Tortoiseshell mainly came from the shell of endangered Hawksbill turtle, it was used right up until the 1973 CITES ban.

Mick

Thanks Mick.

 

[Campbellclanman]

Mick...and other forumites!!
I have just recieved the knife that I posted earlier, I have bought this sight unseen apart from a terrible photo-cost was a very cheap meal...so I thought-ok I will go for it...the meal would be gone now and I have just unopened the package...
As I suspected to you Mick...pretty rough...BUT.... interesting...it is old Ivory, Nickel Silver pins, a beautifully fitted shield (n/s ) with the finest-old real tradesman engraving in old english text J.S.(W) ?... and on the reverse side...another shield - again n/s with the most awesome engraving ...1871.

Th main blade has a nick out the tip-Carbon of course and was in very nice nick ( pardon the pun )before that damage, the saw, and a quill blade are both "floating" - no spring action and just flop around at will...the rest of the blades walk and talk lovely-have the most lovely fine false edges that are cut so nice..the brass liners are "shilled"( what is the term for all the very fine lines along the edges? )..
The corkscrew is very fancy ( fluted), the nail file has the file on one side, and two grooves all the way down each side-as you see in that era of knife...
I am thinking this was a very nice knife...??
Please...forgive me....bad light now-I will have to wait for the weekend so I can take some good photo's for you folks.

My first question of probably one hundred sorry, is the Maker
The blades are nicely and deeply stamped( not etched .... J & S KELLY GLASGOW.
Now this may have been a poor manufacturer..I dont know but from what I can see....it had all the expensive furniture?
Have you heard of this Maker?...I have had a look through my Sheffield book by G.Tweedle...but thats a book of Sheffield Makers ( could be why the Glasgow Maker isnt there )
Also had a look through LG4...not much at all...could you please help me with this

 

[wellington]

My first question of probably one hundred sorry, is the Maker
The blades are nicely and deeply stamped( not etched .... J & S KELLY GLASGOW.
Have you heard of this Maker?...I have had a look through my Sheffield book by G.Tweedle...but thats a book of Sheffield Makers ( could be why the Glasgow Maker isnt there )
Also had a look through LG4...not much at all...could you please help me with this

That's an interesting, high quality, old knife Duncan, fairly sure it is Sheffield made, for J & S Kelly Glasgow, presumably a retailer ?. Quite a few retailers had their own marks struck on knives.

Look forward to seeing more pics..

Mick

 

[Campbellclanman]

That's an interesting, high quality, old knife Duncan, fairly sure it is Sheffield made, for J & S Kelly Glasgow, presumably a retailer ?. Quite a few retailers had their own marks struck on knives.

Look forward to seeing more pics..

Mick

Yeah it does look as though it ( was ) a nice one...now very very used and abused Im afriad
I will post photos very soon-thank you for your time!!

 

[wellington]

Yeah it does look as though it ( was ) a nice one...now very very used and abused Im afriad
I will post photos very soon-thank you for your time!!

Look forward to seeing the photos Duncan, it's a quality antique knife, a really nice item :thumbup:.

There are some good searchable historical directories on-line, that cover many parts of England, but not Scotland, unfortunately, so far I haven't been able to discover anything more on J&S Kelly.

Link to English directories

http://www.historicaldirectories.org/hd/

Here's another worthy old used Glasgow retailed, Sheffield made "six thick" (14 pc) sportsman's knife, all the blade tangs are marked H BROWN, 2.5 ARGYLE ST, GLASGOW measures 3 3/8", made C1880-90s ?. All it's blades/articles walk and talk perfectly.

Mick

 

[Campbellclanman]

Good Grief!!!...I am wishing my one was even near the vicinity of the above knife!!
I have also purchased a very tidy pearl handled Wade and Butcher as well, a very small wee folder-but cool, also..I have picked up a bit of a strange one...I usually pull away from pocket knives with foriegn stamped on them ( please forgive me anyone if you own one-this is only through my own inexperience ) ...anyway...this small folder has two nice blades-Carbon, celluloid/pearl pattern, sivler nickel shield, and the small bolsters are intergral with the liners-which are silver nickel as well...it just seems too higher quality to be a cheapy...this is stamped.... MAGNETIC
FORGED STEEL
FOREIGN.

Any Ideas of province, maker? ( again photos to follow - same day as updates on the older Sheffield )
Mick...with these ones ( other than the older Sheffield..)... I think I should put them on a seperate thread as not to stray from the topic of this fantastic thread ( that should be made a sticky )

 

[rprocter]

Mick, these Sportsman knives are quite bulky, like this 6 thick one you have just shown us.
What was the common carry method ? just put into trousers' pocket ? or were there sheaths associated with many of these ?
If just pocketed, were trousers significantly different from today's clothing ?
most of us now would find these bulky knives somewhat uncomfortable in a pocket and would prefer sheath carry. are we just wimpier ?
roland

 

[wellington]

Hi Duncan,

A great many Sheffield made knives were fitted with scissors ( and sometimes cigar cutters etc) that were actually made in Germany, and marked foreign, usually in a place where it couldn't be seen.

Mick, these Sportsman knives are quite bulky, like this 6 thick one you have just shown us.
What was the common carry method ? just put into trousers' pocket ? or were there sheaths associated with many of these ?
If just pocketed, were trousers significantly different from today's clothing ?
most of us now would find these bulky knives somewhat uncomfortable in a pocket and would prefer sheath carry. are we just wimpier ?

Hi Roland, pretty sure we are wimpier than the guys of old . The five and six thick knives shown on this thread seem to look (in the pictures) bulkier than they actually are, guessing they're not too large to carry in the normal way ?.

Mick

 

[sebago]

Roland,

Looking through the multi-blade knives that Mick has delighted us all with, I see that the vast majority of them have a shackle (bail.) Clearly, those particular knives would be carried from a loop on the belt of the owner.

Jim Taylor.

 

[HCSchluge]

Great thread!!

From everything I have read, the US asked foreign vendors to inscribe country of origin on knives and razors as of 1890. So if the blade does not have England on it, but rather Sheffield only, there's a good chance it was manufactured prior to 1890.

 

[wellington]

Roland,

Looking through the multi-blade knives that Mick has delighted us all with, I see that the vast majority of them have a shackle (bail.) Clearly, those particular knives would be carried from a loop on the belt of the owner.

Jim Taylor.

Your quite right Jim, virtually all of the sportsman's knives shown, measuring over four inches have shackles and would have been mainly carried on the belt.

Here's a picture of my own carry knife, a 5" Holtzapffel sports, in it's original leather case (C1900).

Great thread!!

From everything I have read, the US asked foreign vendors to inscribe country of origin on knives and razors as of 1890. So if the blade does not have England on it, but rather Sheffield only, there's a good chance it was manufactured prior to 1890.

The "England" mark, or lack of it does help a little in dating a knife, but it's no guarantee of its age.

Mick

 

[Will Power]

Six thick certainly is a fattie knife

Very nice these Sportsman's knives. Pockets may have been sturdier, given the amount of wool clothing.Men of all classes wore jackets in this era and a heavier knife is less problem in those pockets.

'Sportsmen' may well have stowed their knives in a picnic hamper,fishing basket or game-bag so the problem of heft and thickness is not there. The shackle as pointed out,would be for belt or strap use probably carried by a ghillie or retainer

 

[rprocter]

Qoute: "Men of all classes wore jackets in this era and a heavier knife is less problem in those pockets."
Ah, yes ! When i have attended some function in which a "Sports Jacket" (i.e. similar to the top 1/2 of a suit) is required, i have been able to load up the pockets with a number of knives and all is still comfortable.
Sports Jacket/Sportsman Knife !!
roland

 

[zerogee]

A couple further notes on clothing - in the States at least - back in the days of most money being coinage, men's pockets were often canvas or some similar sturdier material to hold it. Vests were also quite commonly worn by the working man. In the States, for most of the earlier part of the 1900s, even up into the 1960s, bib overalls were the standard working man's "uniform" -- I can remember many older gents whose Sunday go to meeting wear was their best and newest "dress" overalls. All this allowed them to easily carry larger, heavier knives, though I don't think anyone was carrying 5 or 6 thick sportsmans knives. I must say though, typically they still didn't carry very large knives - but they could if they wanted to. I'd guess granddaddy barlows were the largest commonly carried knives you'd see.

 

[Campbellclanman]

Hey guys!,
How you going...ok today-Staurday..drag out the table-throw some paper over it-and time for some photos...I spent all night cleaning up this ol girl with a wooden toothpick in the liners..mineral oil, and a toothbrush...did it the world of good...here are the photos that I promised you ( first ..I would like to apologise, as this knife is nothing compared to the others that are on this great thread..but its has a link...here goes..I hope its ok to throw a few photos on..Mick if this isnt ok-please let me know and I will edit immediately!!..

Please forgive me for opening all blades-only this once for the photo's..

The knife has Brass liners..that are decorated all on the edge ( what is the correct term? ) Also all N/S furniture-pins and shields.

The saw and smaller long quill type blade are free floaters-they just move on the axis of the pins now-no spring resistance at all-you will see them sticking up in this photo, also...on the left end of the scale-looks as though the end has been chipped off-but it does have cracks-with a slot that has been alocated at the end of the scale....

At the very left-there is an slot under the slab-this housed the tortoise shell slip, and spare blade-Mick just what are these and how did they attach to the knife??

I think the engraving on the shields is extremely nice...cant quite make out the last letter-can you guys help me?...J.S..( M or W?)

A look at the Stamping...this is on the smaller blades as well...( please forgive the cheap plastic looking shine on the slabs-..no I didnt polish them-they are still dull-they are very scratched and worn...but the knife still has a thin film of Mineral oil all over)

Thank you very much Mick for asking me to post photos....I am looking forward very much to what you guys have to say-hey...lets not fool ourselves...its a shipwreck...but I think its very very cool, and I grew attched to it while cleaning it to be honest

Edit... I forgot to mention..the quality of manufacture must be good - after all this ol' girl has been through...this thing now after MUCH carefull cleaning...the blades - bar one have all come back to powerfull snap..where as before-they were very difficult to even open-now they open nicely!

 

[Mike Robuck]

Duncan,

Mick mentioned in an email yesterday that he was going on vacation for a week starting today.

As for the decoration on the liners, I think "milled" is the correct term.

Interesting knife. I look forward to reading the responses.

 

[zerogee]

Duncan - the "spare blade" is a surgical lance. Typically these were pinned between two thin slivers of tortoise shell and rotate out for use -- the two tortoise shell covers becoming the handle. Boils and such were rather more common back then -- yeah, owww....

 

[sebago]

Duncan, The last letter in the monogram is a "W" in Gothic script.

The Sheffield term for the "spare blade" is "Thumb Lancet."

Jim Taylor.

 

[waynorth]

Nice old knife despite its modest shortcomings. A prized possession once, and now again!
I have never ventured into these sportsman/horseman knives beyond looking from afar. Discussing them in detail here is quite an education.
Thanks for displaying it for us, Duncan.

 

[Campbellclanman]

Mike, Zero, Jim and Charlie...thank you for that ....:thumbup:
Good to know what the little lancelett is now, and the lettering -great help!