"Made in Sheffield" 1830-1930, A golden age ?

[wellington]

Can't imagine the man hours that went into all the carving and file work to the blade spines and liners. I wonder what such a knife cost when it was made and the price relative to today.

Joe

Thanks for the additional comments on the "Nautilus" & Parkin & Marshall Jeremy, Joe and Charlie :thumbup:.

Joe, I think labour was much cheaper, back in the 19th century, materials were a much greater part of the manufacturing cost back then. Very difficult to do a then and now price comparison.

Here's a very "plain" looking quill knife, sort of the opposite in style to the previous two, just as good a quality though, as it's so wonderfully made, marked MECHI, SPECIAL STEEL, 3 1/4", made C1827-59, brass liners, threaded and spoon ended nickel silver bolsters, looks unused, highly likely made in Sheffield.

John Joseph Mechi was a London cutler based at No4 Leadenhall Street, London, he exhibited at the 1851 Great Exhibition, he sold a range of top quality items.

Thanks for looking ..Mick

 

[VCM3]

I've got one! To add to Mick's thread,nice Ivory at 3-5/8" closed
Great thread Mick :thumbup:,
-Vince

 

[wellington]

A grand looking Needham serpentine two blade penknife Vince :thumbup:.

There's a good end on shot (4th down) that shows the Wharncliffe blade spine sitting below the top of backspring, that's a common feature found on old traditional finished pen and pocket knives, the old cutlers always liked to make them that way, and also they liked to keep the blade tip pointing low(ish).




Here's an unused old whittler, marked LORBERG, 5 BRAMPTON RD. 3 5/8" C1900, lovely pearl scales, impeccable fit and finish.

Lorberg were London cutlers, the knife almost certainly made in Sheffield.

Mick

 

[wagglebee]

Beautiful whittler Mick!

 

[rprocter]

Mick, this really surprises me, quote: "There's a good end on shot (4th down) that shows the Wharncliffe blade spine sitting below the top of backspring, that's a common feature found on old traditional finished pen and pocket knives, the old cutlers always liked to make them that way, and also they liked to keep the blade tip pointing low(ish)."
so, purposely under-bladed to ensure that tip well covered by liners when closed ?
purposely under-blading for any reason is hard to understand as better design of the proportions in tang geometry and pivot placement can yield a flush spine/spring interface and meet all other requirements.
These old Sheffield knives are "The Best" not only because of their superior workmanship but because their designs were superior as well.
Hence purposeful under-blading seems unlikely to me.
This is not to contradicte you but intended to take my learning up a notch.
roland

 

[wellington]

Mick, this really surprises me, quote: "There's a good end on shot (4th down) that shows the Wharncliffe blade spine sitting below the top of backspring, that's a common feature found on old traditional finished pen and pocket knives, the old cutlers always liked to make them that way, and also they liked to keep the blade tip pointing low(ish)."
so, purposely under-bladed to ensure that tip well covered by liners when closed ?
purposely under-blading for any reason is hard to understand as better design of the proportions in tang geometry and pivot placement can yield a flush spine/spring interface and meet all other requirements.
These old Sheffield knives are "The Best" not only because of their superior workmanship but because their designs were superior as well.
Hence purposeful under-blading seems unlikely to me.
This is not to contradicte you but intended to take my learning up a notch.
roland

Hi Roland,

Perhaps the step, the distance between the top of the blade spine and the top backspring on Vincent's example is a little extreme, but you will find a step, on just about all best finished Sheffield made knives.

The old cutlers preferred to sit the blade spine lower than the top edge of the backspring (where the backspring end meets the corner of the back square with the blade back edge) as the weight of the blade is pushed back into the spring rather than trying to push up over it.

Mick

 

[VCM3]

A good friend sent that to me,as a a gift.
-Vince

 

[wellington]

You've a very generous friend there Vince, that's a fine old knife.

Sorry Roland I misunderstood you're question, the blade points were generally kept low, in the open position, in time due to wear and tear it was perhaps thought the blade tip would rise a little ?. I don't think knives were ever made purposely under bladed.

Mick

 

[rprocter]

Mick, i think we have different meanings for "under-bladed". I use the term to mean that 'step'. This is how Bernard Levine uses the term in his forum.
Perhaps in U.K. "under-bladed" refers to some other feature ?
roland

 

[wellington]

Mick, i think we have different meanings for "under-bladed". I use the term to mean that 'step'. This is how Bernard Levine uses the term in his forum.
Perhaps in U.K. "under-bladed" refers to some other feature ?
roland

Thanks Roland, I've not heard the expression "under bladed" used before.

For example, if anyone has a copy of "Sheffield Exhibition Knives" Claussen, Watts & Mc Mickle, in the Evaluating Quality section pg 28 there's a good picture of three beautiful "exhibition quality" Wostenholm Senators, amazing things, all three clearly show the steps between blade and spine (under-bladed). It's how things were done.

Mick

 

[zerogee]

Here's my little Geo Wostenholm Celebrated Cutlery congress -- only 2 1/2" long closed. Two blades with thru the tang long pulls (the main blade has a thru the tang pull on both sides), fully sunk joints, stag scales with nail ease notches for both blades, flat bolsters with rounded edges. Only 3/16" thick. Sorry for the lousy scans, but that's the best I can do at the moment. Main blade is stamped CONGRESS KNIFE.

-- Dwight

 

[zerogee]

This ivory Eye Witness pen is 3 3/16" long closed with wonderfully rounded hafting - the scales are relatively thick, such that it's basically round (see bottom image for a view from the back). Feels great in the hand. Blades are only marked with the stylized eye/WITNESS/Sheffield.

-- Dwight

 

[zerogee]

Joseph Rodgers Her Majesty (no England) pseudo-wharncliffe ivory "half-whittler" shadow pattern. It's 3 1/8" closed with fully sunk joints with perfect outer layer ivory. Note: although the main blade now looks like a full wharncliffe profile with a straight edge, originally the edge had a slight belly - so technically a modified wharncliffe profile. Also note how they stepped in the secondary blade tang, almost back to the backsquare, to make room for the long primary blade.

Here's a plate of this same pattern in stag -- note the blade profile - unusual and very attractive IMO. I tend to put it into the wharncliffe family since the top of the blade curve is basically continuous from the tang to the tip.

-- Dwight

 

[zerogee]

W&S Horrabin ivory swellcenter balloon split spring whittler - 3 1/8" long closed. Marked W&S/Horrabin/Sheffield (as best I can see anyway) -- I know almost nothing about this firm - just an estimate of circa 1860. Anyone know more?

-- Dwight

 

[Campbellclanman]

Mick...and all contributors...this is one hell of a thread...so so interesting..thank you everyone.
There are some absolutely stunning knives in here!!!
Folks..if you have just stumbled across this thread...pick out a Saturday afternoon..and go through this...a pictorial history lesson on these beautifull knives!

 

[wellington]

Thanks for the kind words Duncan, I also would like to thank all who have posted items on this thread, been great to see.

An interesting selection Dwight,

The Wostenholm Congress is small at 2 1/2", the "Celebrated Cutlery" marking was used by the firm from C1860 onwards, looks very tidy.

The Vic ivory Rodgers penknife is a nice thing, I wonder if its pocket blade could be described a "lamb foot" (albeit a rather long one). The pen blade has a step tang.

The Taylor Eye Witness penknife is interesting, I've had a look through the firms pattern book, they made a selection of these two bladed penknives with large rounded bolsters, sunken joints, flat backs etc, they were more commonly hafted in stag and varied in size from 3"-3 1/2".

I doubt the Horrabin has a split spring, two springs with a central divider ?, looks a fine example. Goins - William & Samuel Horrabin had their factory in Sheffield England C1844-1867.
The Horrabin's TM was later owned by "Steel, Peech & Tozer Ltd.

Thanks for showing...

Mick

 

[wellington]

Here's another, later made, "swell-centre whittler" marked T TURNER & CO, CUTLERS TO HIS MAJESTY, SHEFFIELD, ENGLAND (ENCORE on the pen blade) C1900s ? 3 5/8", it has a central divider running up through the balance rivet. It also has VERY chunky thick pearl scales.

Mick

 

[zerogee]

An interesting selection Dwight,

The Wostenholm Congress is small at 2 1/2", the "Celebrated Cutlery" marking was used by the firm from C1860 onwards, looks very tidy.

The Vic ivory Rodgers penknife is a nice thing, I woder if its pocket blade could be described a "lamb foot" (albeit a rather long one). The pen blade has a step tang.

The Taylor Eye Witness penknife is interesting, I've had a look through the firms pattern book, they made a selection of these two bladed penknives with large rounded bolsters, sunken joints, flat backs etc, they were more commonly hafted in stag and varied in size from 3"-3 1/2".

I doubt the Horrabin has a split spring, two springs with a central divider ?, looks a fine example. Goins - William & Samuel Horrabin had their factory in Sheffield England C1844-1867.
The Horrabin's TM was later owned by "Steel, Peech & Tozer Ltd.

Thanks for showing...

Mick

Mick, thanks for the info on Horrabin! I was using "split spring" in the vague way we do in the States - as a whittler with two springs with a wedge shaped divider between them. I do have a true split spring whittler somewhere around -- it's not in great shape, but it's still pretty interesting. I'll see if I can find it to add later.

I've always associated the Wostenholm "Celebrated Cutlery" mark (on folders anyway) with pre-1890 knives (so 1860-1890) -- at least from my personal observation, I've never seen a Wostenholm folder stamped "Celebrated Cutlery" that was also stamped England.

Maybe if I feel energetic later today I'll add a few more scans to the above, and see if I can chase down a J Rodgers catalog image of the original blade shape of the sorta-wharncliffe pen.

-- Dwight

 

[zerogee]

An Ashton Jackson true splitspring wharncliffe whittler -- unusually for most Sheffield wharncliffe whittlers, this one is 4" long closed. Marked VcrownR/Ashton/Jackson/Sheffield. Great stag scales with birdseye rivets, iron liners, and grooved iron bolsters. Most interesting of all, it has a true splitspring construction -- note the second image. Looking at the spring very closely, it appears to me that they apparently forge welded two springs together to do this on this knife - forming a single wide spring at the main blade end (see bottom image for a closeup of the main blade end of the spring). Note that there is no divider or liner or anything between the split spring ends or the secondary blades. Both the secondary blades are broken, so no point showing those, but they both work and snap great. The main blade is relatively short for a 4" knife - though a bit worn, it would have been only about 2 3/8" long new -- this is due to the true splitspring construction without any divider between the secondary blades -- there's just no room to fit the main blade between more than the thinner tips of the secondary blades.

-- Dwight

 

[zerogee]

Joseph Rodgers Her Majesty (England) "Norfolk" whittler - 3 3/4" closed, stag scales, semi-sunk joints. This is the pattern Remington copied for their unusual "Norfolk" whittlers (considered by most Remington collectors to be the Holy Grails of the old Remington line). "Norfolk" comes from J Rodgers stamping "No 6/Norfolk St/Sheffield" on just about all their knives (where their main factory was). However, I have no idea what Joseph Rodgers themselves called this particular pattern -- what J Rodgers called a "Norfolk Knife" pattern is seen earlier in this thread in a beautiful ivory whittler version from Mick (and in the Case/Bose Collaboration Norfolk). Although very hard to see in the scans due to pocket wear, this Joseph Rodgers had very similar, but even more elaborately threaded bolsters than what you see on the later Remington versions.

One thing Remington didn't fully copy was the complex recurve of the back of the main blade on the Joseph Rodgers version -- keeping the back of the blade very close to the handle when closed and reinforcing all the curve/recurve aesthetics of the handle.

I can see why this knife is so pocket worn -- it's really a sweet piece of work - feels great in the hand in any position. (BTW, this was one of the most difficult Joseph Rodgers patterns for me to track down -- it was a Holy Grail for me for a long time - even getting one in this shape took me years of looking.) Probably one of the best examples I've got of the total finesse and detail these old master cutlers put into their designs.

-- Dwight