Maker; Piece; Price ?

Bladeandbarrel said:
Aww shucks Roger, Kevin is just trying to advance his place in the knife world.
One thread at a time...
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Not trying to advance myself Anthony, but promote discussion and interaction to advance the knife world or at least a small part of it.
As at least several of you "long timers" here seem to be tiring of my threads, I should probably stop.
 
Hi Joe,

Your are confused about your house.

House's should not be used as investments as in order to get the money out of them you have to sell them. Some would argue you could tap the equity with a HELOC. However, this is merely a loan, should you default on that you could lose your home. Or have to sell it to get the money to pay back the HELOC.

Joe, I will offer you this as I have been offering it for almost 20 years. You give me $1,000 and I guarantee a 10% return on your money in 1 year.

At 10% ROI I will almost always beat the street for any given year.

Yes I will invest your money in custom knives.

If you decide not to take me up on this that is fine. But in the future please refrain from saying that custom knives cannot be investments.

Remember, that is 10% guaranteed. Joe will your Financial Planner/Advisor offer you a deal like that on any stock, bond or IPO of any company they represent. If the answer is no...why are you investing with them???

Oh and before you counter with "well you're in the business, you know what to buy, etc. Remember supposedly the Investment professionals you are working with should be in the business and know what they are buying, etc.

Joe, one last thing. The longer you and others say that Custom Knives are not Investments....the longer people will believe you and believe that their knives after purchase are expected to lose money. Question, why would you buy a custom knife that would lose money??? I know I don't.


Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
 
Hi Kevin,

There is nothing wrong with advancing your position. If you want to promote the makers you buy from, nothing wrong with that.

If you want to post questions in order to find out what others are doing. Fine, nothing wrong with that.

There will always be those who have a bone to pick for what every reason.

I would advise staying out of "personality" based conversations on BF and take them private...as I know you have done already.

Your questions have turned into some of the best threads on the forum.

Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
 
SharpByCoop said:
My point is that a maker's bond to a collector can supercede popular rationale.
Coop (Proudly singing 'Kumbaya'....)
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With a few exceptions, I find this is often the case with me. I guess collecting has a tendency to get very personal.

Bob
 
Kevin Jones said:
Not trying to advance myself Anthony, but promote discussion and interaction to advance the knife world or at least a small part of it.
As at least several of you "long timers" here seem to be tiring of my threads, I should probably stop.
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Don't be ridiculous.:D

There are more than a few members here that probably wish that I would stop posting.....fat frikkin chance.;)

Kevin, you and Roger both have something of value to contribute, and you both have your favorite (or favourite, for Roger;)) makers, and there is nothing wrong with that, or with having a strong voice, which you both do.

Both of you need to get whatever issues you have with the other cleaned up in private, so we can publicly get back to arguing about knives like the uncivilized, "know nothing wannabes" that we are.:D

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Hi Bob,

That may exactly sum up the different mind sets.

Many collectors become friends with the makers. This has a tendency to "cloud" their judgment with regards to the makers actual position in the market and the value of the knives in the after market.

Where as investors may also become friends with makers. They will remove that friendship form the equation with regards to a custom knifes value or potential in the after market.

Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
 
I don't have unlimited funds so the only way to advance my collection is to buy with (also) the resell value in mind (by the way I learned that the hard way early on:D) so I can reinvest in other/better/higher valued/and so on knives. That method gave me last year a 22% ROI (I know because of Kevin's spreadsheet ;):thumbup:) on the knives I've sold; which I reinvested in other knives.

That's why, although I do have my favourite makers, I nowadays select (mostly) in the order piece, maker, price.

Besides that I occasionaly buy from an at that time fairly "unknown" maker. To name a couple Andre Andersson, Rodrigo Sfreddo and at the moment I have a set (dagger + fighter) on order with Mark Banfield.

Marcel
 
Kevin, like Les said, your threads have produced some of the best discussions on this forum. You have been a most welcome addition here and I for one hope you continue.
 
For me the maker is important in that I only want to work with those that are honest, ethical, friendly and capable of making the style of knife that I want. I don't look at it from the percpective of someone that only wants to collect the knives of certain makers.
 
Kevin, your threads are almost always thought provoking, and even if I don't agree with your position on certain things, I do enjoy that much information has been passed along in those threads. They have been educational and enjoyable. Things aren't always going to run smoothly, and you are going to piss people off sometimes. It comes with the territory. Handle it as best you can and move on.
 
Les Robertson said:
Hi Bob,

That may exactly sum up the different mind sets.

Many collectors become friends with the makers. This has a tendency to "cloud" their judgment with regards to the makers actual position in the market and the value of the knives in the after market.

Where as investors may also become friends with makers. They will remove that friendship form the equation with regards to a custom knifes value or potential in the after market.

Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
Click to expand...

That's certainly a possibility - we've all seen it happen and some of us have had it happen.

But I don't think there are the two sharp divides that you draw between collector and investor. I buy knives I like - but as a rule I expect them to at least hold their value in the short term and increase in the long term. That said, I have bought and occasionally will buy knives that I know full well won't meet those "investment" criteria. I do it with my eyes open, but that is not a choice any "investor" would make. So am I a "collector" or an "investor"? I suspect a bit of both - and not exclusively one or the other.

Roger
 
Les Robertson said:
Hi Joe,

Your are confused about your house.

House's should not be used as investments as in order to get the money out of them you have to sell them. Some would argue you could tap the equity with a HELOC. However, this is merely a loan, should you default on that you could lose your home. Or have to sell it to get the money to pay back the HELOC.

Joe, I will offer you this as I have been offering it for almost 20 years. You give me $1,000 and I guarantee a 10% return on your money in 1 year.

At 10% ROI I will almost always beat the street for any given year.

Yes I will invest your money in custom knives.

If you decide not to take me up on this that is fine. But in the future please refrain from saying that custom knives cannot be investments.

Remember, that is 10% guaranteed. Joe will your Financial Planner/Advisor offer you a deal like that on any stock, bond or IPO of any company they represent. If the answer is no...why are you investing with them???

Oh and before you counter with "well you're in the business, you know what to buy, etc. Remember supposedly the Investment professionals you are working with should be in the business and know what they are buying, etc.

Joe, one last thing. The longer you and others say that Custom Knives are not Investments....the longer people will believe you and believe that their knives after purchase are expected to lose money. Question, why would you buy a custom knife that would lose money??? I know I don't.


Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
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Point taken, BUT my point is that there is now an expectation that custom knives SHOULD be an investment and if you buy what you like and you lose money, you are not a "smart" collector. When did "nice things that you like to collect" become investment vehicles and how did this happen? Same deal with baseball cards. When and how did something that kids collected and traded because they actually loved the game of baseball become an investment potentially worth big bucks? Rare wine is an even better example. Why the hell would you buy wine if you aren't going to actually drink it all at some point? lol
This mindset assumes, nay insists that you MUST part with some of your beloved collectibles at some point. Otherwise, you are an even dumber collector than they guy who buys what he likes and loses some money.:D If I wanted to split hair, I would say that many folks today are not knife collectors, but knife speculators. Flame on!!!!!
 
jdm61 said:
In my mind, the ultimate position to be in as a collector would be one where you could buy whatever you liked and never sell a single piece in order to make space/raise money for another piece. To me, buying collectibles as an "investment" is almost like buying your home as one. You need a place to park your carcass and if you make some money when you sell it, great. But I wouldn't make plans to retire on the proceeds.
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I like the way Joe talks. Especially "carcass" used here, funny. also describes what Anthony is doing to this thread, one post by strange post at a time..

Keep the love! Custom Collector's Annonymous. ;)

Les, you are in a different league than collectors. it would be interesting to know how you judge knives, get a glimpse of the process.. i'll catch your Blade seminar in June if you are planning it again.

Also would like to hear comments from David Ellis. He has a respectable point of view, as Mastersmith and custom dealer.
David
 
I don't see why any collector or maker needs to box himself in.

I think it is good to have some concept, or direction for collecting, but not to the extent that the fun, enjoyment and discovery is taken out of it. It's good to keep an open mind, and taking risks can be part of the thrill.

Is a concept "quality" something that we are born with,.. or is it learned?

Have we been conditioned (or conditioned ourselves) to only look at quality from a limited perspective?

Can we change the way people look at knives, help the blinders off,… or are we just trying to convince the rest of the community to see things the way we see it for the sake of our own knives and collections?
 
Kevin Jones said:
Not trying to advance myself Anthony, but promote discussion and interaction to advance the knife world or at least a small part of it.
As at least several of you "long timers" here seem to be tiring of my threads, I should probably stop.
Click to expand...

I guess I just don't see the point sometimes. We get so wrapped up in the semantics game.
"What is a knifemaker"
"What is a custom knife"
"What is a dealer".

For me, these discussions take some of the fun OUT of collecting. I wish we could just have more of the good old show and tells, more of Coops great photos and more show reviews.

I will admit to losing some interest in custom knife collecting over the past several years. I have seen some makers pricing escalate to the point of absurdity and as a result their collectors have to constantly be shouting their virtues to keep their "positions" safe. I am NOT referring to you, BTW.

I agree that every collector should look a collecting with a bit of business savvy unless they can afford to literally throw away money. Buy great knives from the right makers and hold them and me mindful of the ebb and flow of market conditions. You can't go wrong in most cases.
Problem is you have to know what a great knife is and who the great makers are to get to that point. I would like to see more discussion about that then the neverending threads like this that just seem to leave people with more questions than answers in the end.

A good example is the Strider thread ongoing in the GBU. There are people with many thousands of dollars of Strider knives that will likely lose their shirt on them. They bought the "makers" instead of the knives. Since the makers now may not be what they initially claimed, the knives are losing their cache'.
 
What is a knife?

I see a lot of “doubt” in this thread, and some of these topics.

If you are not happy or not sure,… maybe you should try something different.
 
Hi Joe,

BUT my point is that there is now an expectation that custom knives SHOULD be an investment and if you buy what you like and you lose money, you are not a "smart" collector.
Click to expand...

This is where you are wrong. If you are a collector who buys what they like and doesn't care about the after market. Then loosing money is of no consequence. The "Smart" collector seizes on an opportunity to improve their collection presents itself. This may include but is not limited to:

1) Great price on a knife

2) Opportunity to pick up an unusual knife...a rare variant, number 1 or prototype.

When did "nice things that you like to collect" become investment vehicles and how did this happen?
Click to expand...

Don't confuse factory produced items with custom items. It is a proven fact that people will buy their youth. That is to say, the items they wanted as a kid and were not able to afford or obtain. When they get to the point that they have the discretionary income to do so...they do it.

Consequently, the Baseball cards, Sports Memorabilia and Comic Books have all moved up and down over the last several decades.

I have a signed 1969 Chicago Cubs Jersey #14 signed by Mr. Cub himself...Ernie Banks. They say you are not a man until you have your heart broke. In September 1969 at age 11 I had my first heart break. But I digress.

This jersey is under glass hanging in my office. On the opposite side there is a space waiting for a Chicago Bulls Home Jersey #23 signed by Michael Jordan.

Im not expecting these to become investments. I bought these to remind me of some great times in my life.

Same deal with baseball cards. When and how did something that kids collected and traded because they actually loved the game of baseball become an investment potentially worth big bucks?
Click to expand...

They became worth big money when someone wanted a compete set of a team of their youth. They had the money they bought it. Generally it is the biggest collector that becomes the dealer. They know what collectors want, they know what things cost and will sell for, etc. These dealers provide a service and an item for those who wish to buy, sell or trade those items.

Rare wine is an even better example. Why the hell would you buy wine if you aren't going to actually drink it all at some point? lol
Click to expand...

I will let our resident wine expert, Peter Gill address this for you.

This mindset assumes, nay insists that you MUST part with some of your beloved collectibles at some point.
Click to expand...

Yes, eventually you will leave every thing you have known and/or loved behind. As there are no luggage racks on a hearse.

Otherwise, you are an even dumber collector than they guy who buys what he likes and loses some money.
Click to expand...

To me, just my opinion. The best a collection has to offer is that it brings you great joy and when you are done with it. You will pass it on to someone who also finds the same joy and will be reminded of great times you had the original owner had. If they are not interested in the collection, hopefully the sale of your collection will fund someone else's collection and bring them the same joy you received from your collection.

Knife Speculators
Click to expand...

No Flame here...absolutely 100% correct.

Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
 
Bladeandbarrel said:
I guess I just don't see the point sometimes. We get so wrapped up in the semantics game.
"What is a knifemaker"
"What is a custom knife"
"What is a dealer".

For me, these discussions take some of the fun OUT of collecting. I wish we could just have more of the good old show and tells, more of Coops great photos and more show reviews.

I will admit to losing some interest in custom knife collecting over the past several years. I have seen some makers pricing escalate to the point of absurdity and as a result their collectors have to constantly be shouting their virtues to keep their "positions" safe. I am NOT referring to you, BTW.

I agree that every collector should look a collecting with a bit of business savvy unless they can afford to literally throw away money. Buy great knives from the right makers and hold them and me mindful of the ebb and flow of market conditions. You can't go wrong in most cases.
Problem is you have to know what a great knife is and who the great makers are to get to that point. I would like to see more discussion about that then the neverending threads like this that just seem to leave people with more questions than answers in the end.

A good example is the Strider thread ongoing in the GBU. There are people with many thousands of dollars of Strider knives that will likely lose their shirt on them. They bought the "makers" instead of the knives. Since the makers now may not be what they initially claimed, the knives are losing their cache'.
Click to expand...

....... What he said! :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::)

Stephen
 
HI David,

You are correct I am in a different position than collectors, makers and other dealers for that matter.

I don't just merely buy and sell. I influence the market. As do others.

If all I did was buy and resell knives I would have gotten out of this a long time ago. I love almost every aspect of custom knives.

As for judging, you do it every time you look at a knife. There are things you like and dislike on knives. What I found to be a great help was to talk with makers about the "technical" aspects of knives. How they are built what they need to do to created a certain look or design elements.

For me making the determination as to whether I will work with a maker long term consists of a set of guidelines and questions I have and ask. These questions and guidelines have been developed and refined over the decades. Wow, did I just write "decades". :eek:

I started in 1984 by ordering every catalog I could get. Then started to determine what I was interested in. Then removed makers catalogs from the file whose knives I wasn't interested in. Then I kept refining.

The turning point for me was at the 1986 Blade Show. I bought a Barminski knife that I worked the dealer down to $250. I walked away pretty smug with myself. Showing my knife to a very educated collector at the time he informed me that dealer cost on those knives were $62.00. My smugness turned to nausea.

I had along conversation with myself in the car all the way from Knoxville TN. back to Ft. Campbell KY. that Sunday night. I vowed I would never let that happen again.

My goal was not to become a dealer...but a very well informed collector. Who would gain as much information on a maker and their knives and how they resold in something called....The After Market.

Ultimately it is up to each collector to determine which knives will find their way into their collection.

My complaint about the "collector only" mindset is that too many of them complain that their knives either didn't sell or wouldn't sell. If you claim you "buy what you like" then you give up the right to complain about how your knives are treated in the after market.

You are right I am in a different position than most collectors. Collectors don't stand behind a table and have some Moron tell you "you don't know what the hell you are doing!....If thats the case why did you come to my table??" When you tell them you are not interested in their knife or that they are asking too much money for it.

By stating this over and over again on the forums. I seldom if ever have someone bring me a knife that they know will be difficult to resell. Or at least they have the common courtesy not to call me an A$$Hole because I didn't want their knife.

Make sure you stop by after the Seminar in Atlanta and I'll show you how to tell if a maker is left or right handed in 3 seconds or less. :D

Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
 
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