Me-109 or Spitfire?

"Overall", which was the better fighter plane? And why.

It's all moot now anyway and has been for years.:rolleyes: Why not ask about the new aircraft coming along, even going so far as to supposition about what has been built that we don't know about like maybe the supposedly Aurora.;) :p :eek:


That's probably already obsolete itself.;) :p






:cool: :D
 
P47 - The JUG!!
Designed originally by Paul R. Hill. Where have I heard that name before? (He's my UFO guru)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_R._Hill

In the end, if you want to arm an air force to defend yourself against the real destroyers, bombers, then you need high altitude capability and a heavy cannon.
The BF-109 did that.

Now, if you actually want to compare dogfighters, then you have the wrong planes in your choice.
Spitfire or Hurricane VS Fw-190
That would be a hard choice, as even Mustang pilots were scared of the FW-190.
 
While stationed in the UK with the USAF, in the late 70's. I visited the Imperial War Museum's airfield in East Anglia. They were running up one of the very very few flying Spits left. Man oh man!! There is NO sound like a Rolls Royce Merlin!! The supercharged Packard built, Merlin powered P-51D's are the only thing that comes close. The Spitfire to me is a bit smoother of line, and faster looking than the Hurricane. The German aircraft of the era seem so utilitarian and boxy by comparison, to me. The Mossies were an amazing aircraft, no doubt. Growing up, on SAC Bases, I blashemed by prefering the Mosquito to the B-17's and B-29's my Dad flew in the Second World War.

Mark
 
Of the two, I'd take the 109. I'd prefer an up-engined Hurricane, though- give it a better engine, and it had higher ceiling, was faster, and more rugged than either.

John
 
Here is what the British and German pilots said: The two planes were so equal that a victory came down to circumstance and pilot skill. Although, the fuel injection and the in-hub cannon, they gave the Me-109 a slight advantage. Both are beautiful, outstanding air craft, of the past.
 
Of the two? The 109 by a hair. Best of the war? Definitely the -262. No ifs ands ors or buts about it. It's our luck Hitler was a retard and didn't realize it's full potential in 1942.
 
there's a classic example of mixing interceptors with fighters. The ME-262 was solely intended for the anti-bomber role. (not a fighter)
Way ahead of her time, she carried on board radar and air to air missiles!
 
The 109 series was a very forward-thinking design, and the tactics they developed became the foundation of basically all modern Aerial combat. (high-speed, boom and zoom)
The Spitfire was one of the best of the "old" designs. (highly maneuverable, turn-type dogfighting.)
The Bf-109 could outrun almost any other plane of the period and had a very narrow rear profile. Also, it had a fuel injector, so the engines did not die if you dove too sharply, which was a problem for the British planes.

I disagree with some of the above. The 109 had severe limitations imposed on it by the basic design, and while ingenuity kept the plane at least serviceable, it was quite dated by the latter half of the war. I would go so far as to say that the 109's widespread deployment had a negative impact on Germany's aircraft weapon development, as it simply couldn't carry some of the more theoretically effective designs on the drawing board, and if it couldn't carry them why bother making them? (Or so the thinking went, in some circles.) Kurt Tank (and others) realized this even before WWII began, hence the FW-190...which still couldn't carry some of that stuff, but that's another story.

The German boom-and-zoom method of fighting was adopted out of necessity, as starting with the Friedrich (or was it the Emil? It's been a while) it could no longer turn with its adversaries, and the angles game ceased to be an option. "Turning and burning" was an easier way to fly and only really started to leave most nations' doctrines with the advent of jets, and the Russians never actually gave up on it. It seems to be making a comeback today.

Carburetted engines were more of a refinement than a serious advantage at the start of the war. True, a hard enough dive would cause the engine to sputter or even stall completely, but hard negative gees are also rather unpleasant (and even dangerous) for the pilots. A quick half-roll to inverted made the dive a climb as far as the fuel injection system was concerned and pilots were trained appropriately. It was something that could easily be "designed in" later on down the development line when convenient.

Basically, if you can trick a german pilot into a turning dogfight, you might win in a spitfire. If you don't see him coming and you don't have enough altitude, though, you are dead meat.

They sometimes did not have the choice.

Historically in air warfare, not seeing the enemy coming usually got one shot up regardless of one's altitude, or what aircraft they were flying. The aces that lived to write about it, generally tell of surprising their enemies and attacking from positions of extreme advantage when at all possible. (Which is probably why they lived to tell about it.)

Remember, Chuck Yeager bagged his 262 while it was trying to land. :)

As to which one was most successful - The Israeli Air Force, when it was created in the late 40's, used the BF-109G or K, I think, which was one of the last models of that plane with a pressurized cabin for hi-altitude flight.

Only until they were able to get Mustangs and Spitfires. ;) There was probably a cultural aspect involved in this decision though, and Israel's S-199's are often mentioned anecdotally as dogs at the best of times, and widowmakers at the worst. They are not fair representations of wartime 109's.
 
Severe limitations? They were able to fly higher than other planes. When an aerial engagement starts, the plane with more altitude usually wins.
(Altitude=energy)
Engine stalls when diving will kill you if you are trying to extend from an enemy plane. (a classic defense - hit the deck and try to outrun him)
High-speed tactics are pretty much all anybody uses now, because they'd black out otherwise.
Nobody flies the sopwith camel anymore..

But hey, don't take my word for it! Read Shaw. That is where I learned what little I know about the subject.
http://www.amazon.com/Fighter-Combat-Tactics-Maneuvering-New/dp/0870210599

The ME-262 was really slow to land. Those early jet engines didnt work as well as the props did, and they had to "linger" for a while before landing, making them pretty vulnerable. That pre-landing pattern was one of the most dangerous tasks for the 262s.
 
+1 for the P47, but I love the P38 also. I used to dream about building a Mosquito in my back yard as a kid...

Still, when forced to name my favorite fighter, the Hurricane is it. Just because.

Anybody know who Eric Hartmann was? A great read, if you can find his bio.

The mistake made on the 109's, vis a vis turning radius ,was the wing guns. It was just not designed for that. That is why the F and G models went back to the engine mounted guns exclusively. That does show the inherent limitations of the platform. in spite of that, it served very well, and was built in greater numbers than any other fighter aircraft in history, IIRC.

Hartmann did not love the dogfight. He was an advocate of the surprise attack, and of getting very close before opening fire. Then get away, fight another day. Quite the martial artist, he was! There were 352 witnesses to that, at least.

take care,

Tom
 
Interesting/odd/cool to note how many khukuri fans are also historical aviation savvy... good thread.


Mike
 
BTW

Love that Corsair too!

way cool plane, did not know it was in production so long.

Black sheep squadron was a favorite tv show, back in the day.

I'm guessing many of you have read several books by Martin Caidin?

I need to get another copy of "Flying Fortress". B17= all time favorite warplane, or airplane period.

"Duel of Eagles" by Peter Townsend, a squadron commander during the BOB is my favorite book on that subject. he goes all the way back to WWI, and the inter war development period. I need to read that again.

I need to get back to work!

When I was a teenager I could recite the tracer/ball mix of the Brit planes as used during that time. I did, in fact, have the occasional date though!

:D:o:foot:

Tom
 
OK, one last trivia question- Name the pilot, and his plane, who was the axis tank buster champ. (I don't know if the Red Army had someone with a higher score or not.)

Tom
 
I'm guessing you mean Rudel in his Stuka. 2,000+ kills including, IIRC, a battleship and a couple of cruisers.

Not too shabby.

Edited to add: And I agree with you 100% about the B-17... it was up there with the Spitfire in terms of beautiful lines and with the Jug as far as sheer toughness. I think I've seem Memphis Belle a hundred times...
 
Great Job!

Even the Stuka found a way to be useful 'till the end of the war.

Don't know much about Rudel. he must have been quite a pilot.

take care,

Tom
 
BTW, when talking B17's I prefer the F model. The chin turret of the G, while more practical, is not nearly as sleek. Like the OD better than the silver too.

Those boys heading on into German airspace while their escorts turned back ranks right up there with the 82nd crossing the Nijmegen in collapsible canvas boats in broad daylight.

..........................................................................................................



T
 
Yes, Hans-Ulrich Rudel, "Stuka Pilot*", who became commander of the Immelmann Wing; destroyed the Soviet battleship Marat plus several hundred of their battle-tanks as well as aircraft... flew both dive-bombers and FW-190. Fought exclusively on the Eastern front.

* Rudel's autobiography, a very good read
 
My bad, it was the Waal river, Nijmegen was the town, of "A Bridge Too Far" fame. Cornelius Ryan's description of that crossing is tremendous.

Thanks for the Tip on Rudel's bio.

Tom
 
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