Membership changes, was New Policy: You sell knifemaker's products, you are a dealer

[Spark]

It's been brought to my attention that we've got a couple suppliers of knifemaking materials, woods, etc on the forums with memberships other than dealer level.

It's one thing if you've beaten a couple bars of damascus out and are selling them off. It's another entirely if that's part of your primary source of income. This includes (but is not limited) to grinding supplies & equipment, materials such as wood, plastics, composites or other materials, and other misc & sundry things.

Do the right thing, folks. Dealer memberships are $200 a year. That's less than $17 a month, much less than an ad in a magazine.

 

[JatMat]

Question answered in later post. Thank You,
Jim

 

[Spark]

Again, primary source of income. This means operating a business from it.

 

[JatMat]

Again, primary source of income. This means operating a business from it.

I guess I am out, my SS is 15 times income derived from G-11.
Thanks,
Jim

 

[Phil Dwyer]

Hey Spark,

I'm trying to wrap my brain around this.

• Do I now need to look in another forum that's for dealers to find the kind of stuff I have been finding from knife makers in the Knife Makers For Sale Area?
• It seems that it will become less likely that I will be able to get affordable materials, if full time knife makers who excel at making composites or getting good wood or steel and offer the stuff on the side are no longer allowed to.
• Just wondering, how do you draw the line between knife makers and knife dealers? Is it that a dealer is a reseller?
• If a person/knife maker makes or processes the composites or woods or metals they sell are they different than a reseller (dealer?) of those things?
• Will you notify the folks you feel are in violation of your rule prior to banning them? (I'd hate to lose good folks over misunderstandings.)

Just a couple of thoughts. Good luck sorting it out. I wish I had $200 (and something to make a business out of selling). I'd give it to ya!

All the best, Phil

 

[Josh K]

I always understood that dealers bought things (wholesale) and then resold them via a website for a profit.

It is my opinion that people who make supplies and such for knife makers as a sole consumer source should not be labeled as Dealers.

They are just like any other knife maker. They obtain raw materials and produce goods with them. I don't think someone like Go Mike (13 IIRC) who probably only makes money selling his wood here (or other sites, I haven't checked) should be a Dealer, even though that is his primary source of income.

 

[richard j]

thats a good point josh. he's only a teenager and just starting out.

 

[Spark]

If you are purchasing products for resell, that makes you a dealer.

If you are manufacturing products for resell, so that it can further be used in production, that makes you a manufacturer / wholesaler. Guess what? That makes you a dealer.

If you are occasionally producing onesy-twosey extras, and want to pass it forward to others, that doesn't apply.

This isn't hard to grasp folks. $17 a month. That's what a dealer membership works out to.

 

[go mike]

They are just like any other knife maker. They obtain raw materials and produce goods with them. I don't think someone like Go Mike (13 IIRC) who probably only makes money selling his wood here (or other sites, I haven't checked) should be a Dealer, even though that is his primary source of income.

I'm 16 as of July, and I only sell the wood on BladeForums. I get the wood locally, plane it, and cut it up into blocks and sell the blocks for some profit. Granted, it IS my primary source of income, but I don't make enough from it to be able to handle a $200 a year fee. I would be fine with upgrading my membership to platinum, because that's only $10 more than what I have right now. It's also not a business to do this, because knife making is only my hobby at this time.

I would just like some clarification on what a knife making supplies dealer would mean, at least in my case. Fod, atakach, and Shaughnessy would probably be in the same boat here too with handle materials.

 

[Josh K]

I'm 16 as of July, and I only sell the wood on BladeForums. I get the wood locally, plane it, and cut it up into blocks and sell the blocks for some profit. Granted, it IS my primary source of income, but I don't make enough from it to be able to handle a $200 a year fee. I would be fine with upgrading my membership to platinum, because that's only $10 more than what I have right now. It's also not a business to do this, because knife making is only my hobby at this time.

I would just like some clarification on what a knife making supplies dealer would mean, at least in my case. Fod, atakach, and Shaughnessy would probably be in the same boat here too with handle materials.

:foot: I'm mixing you up with all the other younger members.

My only point was that there is a difference between buying something and reselling it for profit, and making something yourself and selling it. Knife makers fall into the latter, and in my eyes aren't dealers.

 

[SPXTrader]

I see Spark's side. Level the playing field for everyone. Regardless of whether you make it out of materials you buy or pirate from salvage, or buy materials for resale, if you sell, you're a dealer.

Unless you want to start giving stuff away, there's a profit to be made.

 

[Josh K]

I see Spark's side. Level the playing field for everyone. Regardless of whether you make it out of materials you buy or pirate from salvage, or buy materials for resale, if you sell, you're a dealer.

Unless you want to start giving stuff away, there's a profit to be made.

Just like profit on making knives?

Dealers don't have any labor, they buy and resell higher to make a profit. Makers don't.

 

[SPXTrader]

Just like profit on making knives?

Dealers don't have any labor, they buy and resell higher to make a profit. Makers don't.

Dealers have overhead. As do makers. Both have time and money invested and expect a return on their investment. And I'm not familiar with any makers that work for free.

Same goes with scales, sharpeners, lanyards, sheaths, etc. If you sell something here for a profit, other than in the For Sale/Trade Individual areas, you're a dealer.

And Spark was very clear in his exception:

If you are occasionally producing onesy-twosey extras, and want to pass it forward to others, that doesn't apply.

This isn't hard to grasp folks.

 

[go mike]

Dealers have overhead. As do makers. Both have time and money invested and expect a return on their investment. And I'm not familiar with any makers that work for free.

Same goes with scales, sharpeners, lanyards, sheaths, etc. If you sell something here for a profit, other than in the For Sale/Trade Individual areas, you're a dealer.

And Spark was very clear in his exception:

Spark was clear in that part, but I'm just confused about when Spark said

Again, primary source of income. This means operating a business from it.

By your definition (might be what Spark's is too), my wood for sale would be considered a "primary" source of income, and I'd have to drop $200 to continue to sell it on the forums. I don't have the kind of income from the wood to be able to drop $200 just to continue to sell it. I paid the $40 that was originally required to sell there, and I would only go up to $50.

I understand that Spark is busy dealing with the server issues, but if he could pop in here and clarify a couple things that are being asked, that would be wonderful.

 

[hwpaintballer]

Dealers have overhead. As do makers. Both have time and money invested and expect a return on their investment. And I'm not familiar with any makers that work for free.

Same goes with scales, sharpeners, lanyards, sheaths, etc. If you sell something here for a profit, other than in the For Sale/Trade Individual areas, you're a dealer.

And Spark was very clear in his exception:

I'll have to agree with Spxtrader on this one, if your saleing items regularly and expect a profit it from it then you are a dealer.

 

[J_Curd]

Dealers don't have any labor, they buy and resell higher to make a profit. Makers don't.

No one sells anything without labor, or the attempt to garner a profit.

 

[STR]

Hey Spark,

I'm trying to wrap my brain around this.

• Do I now need to look in another forum that's for dealers to find the kind of stuff I have been finding from knife makers in the Knife Makers For Sale Area?
• It seems that it will become less likely that I will be able to get affordable materials, if full time knife makers who excel at making composites or getting good wood or steel and offer the stuff on the side are no longer allowed to.
• Just wondering, how do you draw the line between knife makers and knife dealers? Is it that a dealer is a reseller?
• If a person/knife maker makes or processes the composites or woods or metals they sell are they different than a reseller (dealer?) of those things?
• Will you notify the folks you feel are in violation of your rule prior to banning them? (I'd hate to lose good folks over misunderstandings.)

Just a couple of thoughts. Good luck sorting it out. I wish I had $200 (and something to make a business out of selling). I'd give it to ya!

All the best, Phil

A knife makers primary source of income is making knives not selling the raw materials used to make them. That is the difference.

The once in a while sale of scraps, left over end cuts, going out of business sales, or something bought but decided against for some reason later by a maker do not apply and will still continue but if you are buying from someone selling raw materials repeatedly whether they be handle materials, ti or stainless sheets, screws or whatever and its their primary income chances are they are not the steal of deals you are talking about anyways.

As I understand it. If your sales come together as your primary source of spending money, whether it be an extra $30 a month or $3000 its not the money amount that sets you apart. Its the fact that you are selling supplies without a dealer member account. The money you make from the stand point of a business has little to do with whether its technically a business or not. Many business lose money but they are still a business. How much you make has nothing to do with the definition. By the way, it is possible to be both a maker and a dealer selling raw materials and again it has to do with whether or not you buy the raw materials to use yourself or to resell to others as to which you are.


STR

 

[JatMat]

I solved my problem, I just closed my sale thread. Thinking about it, I just did not have the extra money for the dealer membership. I have just lost my business of 23 years and now living on SS. I am still having financial problems and do not expect them to change. The boxes of material I have left will be dealt with later when my mind clears and the billfold is fatter. I understand the need for change of policy and I will still support the forum as I can.
Jim

 

[STR]

JatMat open up a Google blog and post a link in the bottom of your posts without making it a big add. Those that know you and what you had can still go there to make contact with you about what they want if a dealer membership is out of the question here. Use the link in my own posts to start your own account with them.

STR

 

[Josh K]

Dealers have overhead. As do makers. Both have time and money invested and expect a return on their investment. And I'm not familiar with any makers that work for free.

Same goes with scales, sharpeners, lanyards, sheaths, etc. If you sell something here for a profit, other than in the For Sale/Trade Individual areas, you're a dealer.

And Spark was very clear in his exception:

But aren't they selling in the Knife Makers For Sale area? Do they all expect to make a profit? I sell lanyards, am I a dealer? I make virtually no money doing this because I have to keep a good variety of colors in stock. You'd have to buy 50+ lanyards just to cover what I've paid already.

I'll have to agree with Spxtrader on this one, if your saleing items regularly and expect a profit it from it then you are a dealer.

See above.

No one sells anything without labor, or the attempt to garner a profit.

How many makers make a living off of their knives?

---------------------------------------------------

Perhaps I'm ignorant, but I don't see a lot of makers producing large batches of stuff, other then handle materials. I was assuming a dealer was a reseller, mostly of production knives. This has been broadened to include people who have websites where you can purchase gear and knives (GG, KC, etc).