Metallurgy sub-forum needed

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Padrig said:
See I was following fine up to now. What the heck is this? :confused:

Pad
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Human nature... un-scientistic and imperfect.

... no winners and no losers.

I think we need a sub-forum for metallurgy! That's as simple as I can make it!
 
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Couldn't agree more, Nathan. I've been reading and reading about metallurgy because I am a newb and I want to ..no, NEED to know what is going on inside the steel that I'm working with because a knife aint a knife without a good heat treat! I'm starting to understand things a lot better and I encourage any one starting out to read up on metallurgy. I find it very interesting. Here's a link that has helped me understand a fair bit about it. http://www.survivalistbooks.com/faq/metalfaq.htm
 
I feel that a metallurgy sub-forum would simply serve to sweep metallurgy talk "under the rug". I don't hate to say this, but I believe that you know this Tai, and I believe you've seen firsthand what happens when you divide up a forum into so many sub portions. I agree with Mike in that the shoptalk forum is the correct place to have materials science discussions.

No one tries to push art discussions out of shoptalk, why try to push metallurgy out? The new folks coming in are going to click right on past that sub-forum, but I'm sure you already knew that.
 
Tai Goo said:
Scientistic materialism has no authority in the arts.
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is this about a sub forum, or about you having a soapbox to preach on?

just because you say , doesn't make it so.

some people think science and art can go hand in hand
 
"Scientistic materialism" is that like the same stuff that is responsible for the keyboard you're typing on Tai? Or the internet that you're using to come here and tell us how science is dilluting the purity of knife art???

Hmmmmm...... *raised eyebrow*
 
Now guys, we all have plenty of chances to get on our soapbox. :)

I'm reconsidering my initial response to this idea, based on all the opinions expressed here. I do respect all you guys' opinions!

I do think that at least a sticky about metallurgy info would be a good idea, much like the newbie and shop safety threads. Simply as a quick reference to point new guys like me toward.

Don't you ever get tired of guys like me asking "How should I heat-treat XXYY steel?" every other day?
 
I feel very strongly that we absolutely need a drill bit sub forum. Questions about drill bits come up almost every week and I feel it is diluting shoptalk to the point it is almost unreadable. If we don't get a drill-bit-talk subforum I'm leaving.... yeah


Heh heh. In all seriousness, I find it interesting that a relatively intelligent person (me), who has many common interests and ideas as another relatively intelligent person (my wife) can share similar life philosophies but look at the same information and draw such totally different conclusions that I voted republican and she voted democrat...

My point here is that some things are topics that some people are just wired to see a certain way. Tai is an artist, whom I respect a great deal, that hates to see all of the uninteresting damn metallurgy stuff obscuring all the wonderful things pertaining to the art of knives. I think he sees the heavy scientific bent this forum takes as bending our direction too much towards focusing on one aspect of knifemakeing to the detriment of the others. I personally take more of a scientific approach to knifemakeing. Not that I'm not capable of taking an artistic approach to it, but I'm not wired that way. I expect that Tai is probably in the 99th percentile, artistic wise, and is so wired to see things in that light that the way I see things or (gasp) Kevin sees things is kind of like that way my wife and I see politics. It is a debate that doesn't have a correct answer.

BTW, I have reason to believe that Tai's HT is working just fine. Better than mine. I just don't think he finds the subject that interesting. I also believe that we are fortunate to have Tai here, even if he does stir the pot. In my opinion, his art is important and this forum could use more discussion about form and texture and not just pearlite and martensite. I just don't personally think the metallurgy is a bad thing that should be put elsewhere.

My .04
 
Tai Goo said:
Scientistic materialism has no authority in the arts.
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It's a good thing that I make knives, not art. I'll take my metallurgy with heaping doses of factual information, hold the philosophical bull$hizzle please.
I don't believe the forum would benefit from a metallurgical sub forum, for many of the already mentioned reasons. If a person has a question about making knives, all they have to do is ask, there are plenty of people that will help. -Matt-
 
I vote for an "artnotscience" sub-forum :p or we could just have a primal fires forum here? which would satisfy you Tai?

What's the matter? wake up without anything to stir? :p
 
grease-man said:
It's a good thing that I make knives, not art. I'll take my metallurgy with heaping doses of factual information, hold the philosophical bull$hizzle please.
I don't believe the forum would benefit from a metallurgical sub forum, for many of the already mentioned reasons. If a person has a question about making knives, all they have to do is ask, there are plenty of people that will help. -Matt-
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You do make art. Statements like that indicate how this discussion is needed here.

Many knives are not art. But handmade custom knives had better be or they can't justify their existence. Perhaps you should give some thought to what art actually is (it ain't just for pretty), and why people spend hundreds of dollars and cherish certain things.

If you were just making a tool, why not make screw drivers?
 
I'm not big into "philosophical bull$hizzle" much, either, grease-man; but I do tend to lean towards the "artistic" side. In that, I know what looks good and feels good to me, I'm beginning to understand what works well, and if a knife just plain looks ugly I'm not even going to pick it up. Blame it on me being left-handed, I guess.

But on the other hand, I read posts from gents like Nathan, mete, and Cashen with great interest. I often don't understand it all, and likely never will. But I've learned a LOT from them and I don't think they're stuffing dogma or an "ism" down our throats, just presenting facts that they can verify. These guys aren't snobs at all, in my opinion. If they were, why would they pour so much time and effort into sharing their experience with their competitors?

Nathan the Machinist said:
Many knives are not art. But handmade custom knives had better be or they can't justify their existence.
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Damn straight! Making beautiful, high-performance knives involves both art and science, I don't see how you can get around that. I will never be a metallurgist (to paraphrase Nathan, my brain just isn't wired that way), but I certainly appreciate the info. It has saved me a lot of time and money that I otherwise would have wasted, chasing my tail.

I've seen gorgeous, highly-functional knives made on a rock next to a campfire, and equally excellent ones made on a CNC mill. It makes very little difference to me! The cat is still skinned, either way.

Nathan the Machinist said:
It is a debate that doesn't have a correct answer.
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That's a fact.

I still would like to see a sticky thread on metallurgy, simply for my own convenience. :)
 
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Why does everyone want to separate art and science ? My parents had an art background and they were always interested in young artists .They once met some art students who were aware that they needed to improve their skills .My father said that was easy , get a sketch pad ,bring it with you everywhere and sketch, sketch , sketch ! They said they were told in art "school " that that would inhibit their creativity. NONSENSE ! Creativity is a brain function.For an artist he must put what he created on canvas.To do so he must know his tools. Those students didn't know how to use or even clean their brushes or mix colors ! So much for our school system.
A good knowledge of your tools will let you use hammers more efficiently, be aware of the limits of your materials so you can get the most out of them and in the end make a better object.
Reject neither art nor science.
 
mete said:
Why does everyone want to separate art and science ? ...
Reject neither art nor science.
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Dammit man, I spent a lot of time on my last post, and you had to go and sum it up in a couple sentences! :D

Nick, I write draw and see best with my left hand/eye, but I fight and swing a hammer like a righty. Again... the dichotomy! ;)
 
No offense guys, but there is an obvious line between art and science. All art involves science, but art is plainly beyond the scope of science.

Science is a subordinate tool in art, not it's master.

Art and religion are outside the realm of science...
 
Why do so many talented smiths seem so hell bent on turning the art of knife making into another damn pseudoscience… “Knifeology”! LOL

If that’s what it’s becoming,… I’d rather hang up my hammer and just walk away from it.
 
Tai Goo said:
No offense guys, but there is an obvious line between art and science. All art involves science, but art is plainly beyond the scope of science.

Science is a subordinate tool in art, not it's master.

Art and religion are outside the realm of science...
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Tai, I greatly respect your work, and I'm still looking forward to that video you guys are working on, and would love to take classes from you some day. But by your own admission, "All art involves science". I think that sums up this discussion.

I agree that art and science are both important. I agree that much of art and religion are outside the realm of science. But as someone who has studied a variety of sciences (most biology and physiology), and as someone who is a Christian as well, I often admire the way science and religion complement each other. In the same way, we need the science to complement the art.

I can see your frustration in the scientific bent this forum has a tendency to lean towards, but suppressing any aspect of the art and science is a disservice to the craft.

--nathan
 
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