Metallurgy sub-forum needed

[James_Terrio]

Tai, I'm not quite understanding you... if you were talking about a painting, the "science" of how the brush, paint and canvas interact is still undeniable. These are empirically demonstrable facts.

"Subordination", or which is the "master" of the other has nothing to do with it.

I mean no disrespect; you are far more accomplished than I, in "our" field... but I'm beginning to detect a distinctly "anti-science" bias that I honestly don't understand at all.

Perhaps my understanding of the definitions is off-base... in school I was taught that the scientific method means positing a theory, then setting out to see if it works and is verifiable by others using similar processes. I fail to see how this compromises art in any way, especially when talking about a knife, screwdriver or any other tool that must perform to a certain standard.

How exactly is it, that science prevents or subverts art, in your opinion?

 

[Tai Goo]

It gives the art a "false impression" as I said in my original post.

Scientistic supremacy has no place in the art of knife making.

 

[Destraal]

Knives were used for cutting things WAY before they were used (or not used as is frequently the case) as art. As such, I think that a knife should be a cutting tool first and a work of art second. Bearing that in mind, there's just no way you can say that science doesn't belong in the process of making knives. Science might not have a place in art, but knives should be tools first, then art.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/knife

 

[James_Terrio]

Please explain to me who mentioned "supremacy"

I'll speak only for myself... to me, the science of knifemaking lies in the ability to identify known materials with known properties, and deal with them in ways that can be proven to work well, hence providing the customer with a product he can rely on to perform at a high level.

Vagueness and an inability to define a given process reeks of psuedoscience... empirical, repeatable data relating to a given material or procedure is "true" science, not a dogma.

What is this "knifeology" of which you speak, friend? Maybe 20 or 30 years ago, in the days of "edge-packing" and wink-wink-nod-nod wive's-tales about quenching in panther-oil, I would have agreed that was "psuedoscience". I see very little of that nonsense around here.

 

[Nathan the Machinist]

the days of "edge-packing" and wink-wink-nod-nod wive's-tales about quenching in panther-oil,

snip

I see very little of that nonsense around here.

And that is one of Kevin Cashen's contributions to our ilk. Removing the counter productive BS, which is really all he was trying to do, not defining knifemakeing as some metallurgical exercise.

 

[grease-man]

You do make art. Statements like that indicate how this discussion is needed here.

Many knives are not art. But handmade custom knives had better be or they can't justify their existence. Perhaps you should give some thought to what art actually is (it ain't just for pretty), and why people spend hundreds of dollars and cherish certain things.

If you were just making a tool, why not make screw drivers?

Nathan, I must apologize as my quoted post was made in haste as I am at work, and in kind of a mood...I don't like to let that bleed over into my posts here, so I do apologize to you and the others here.

I had a few minutes to think about your post while I stepped out of the room for a minute. I think the reason that I don't think of myself or my knives as "art" is because I was never very good at "art". My "art" teachers didn't really like me that much because I didn't show much improvement ever. I even had one tell me I was stupid and would never amount to much. My music teacher said pretty much the same thing (nice teachers, huh ) So from about 5th grade on, I really didn't want to do "art" anymore. "Art" sucked, because I was bad at it. I was pretty good at the rest of my subjects, but science was at the top of the list, I embraced it. So perhaps I'm still rejecting "art" in favor of science in a way. Perhaps I've been misled to believe that I'm incapable of creating "art".
You are right, not all knives are "art", and that's probably where mine are for the time being. Will they ever be "art"? I guess that's up to me. I'll have to work on that. Thanks for the reality check and the opportunity for a little self-realization. :thumbup: -Matt-

 

[Will Leavitt]

What am I going to do with the 20 gallons of virgin panther oil I bought for quenching I bought a "edge packing flatter" on fleabay for $49.95 and it came with a genoowine hickory handle that was part of Paul Bunyan's axe handle This flatter is supposed to help me break the steel atoms into smaller atoms so they cut better, y'all are making me cry. Next you'll tell me is that it doesn't matter if my anvil points to the North or not.

 

[Matthew Gregory]

No offense guys, but there is an obvious line between art and science. All art involves science, but art is plainly beyond the scope of science.

Science is a subordinate tool in art, not it's master.

Art and religion are outside the realm of science...

Preposterous.

Only someone that has chosen to limit the depth of their thought processes due to a zealot's conviction would possibly consider these statements viable, or even relevant!

 

[James_Terrio]

And that is one of Kevin Cashen's contributions to our ilk.

Agreed! Back in the 80's I fell hook-line-and-sinker for "edge-packing", among other things. Time and maturity, but mostly solid info from folks who can prove what they do, works, have taught me better.

Will, stop yer crying! You know you can put that stuff right back on the Bay, maybe even at a profit Just make it sound as mysterious as you can, that may help raise the value...

Matt, I usually try to avoid strong words like "zealot" in these conversations, but I can't disagree with your sentiment.

P.S. I still think a sticky is a good idea, although I'd hate to be the one to try and organize it...

 

[Nathan the Machinist]

Nathan, I must apologize as my quoted post was made in haste as I am at work, and in kind of a mood...I don't like to let that bleed over into my posts here, so I do apologize to you and the others here.

I had a few minutes to think about your post while I stepped out of the room for a minute. I think the reason that I don't think of myself or my knives as "art" is because I was never very good at "art". My "art" teachers didn't really like me that much because I didn't show much improvement ever. I even had one tell me I was stupid and would never amount to much. My music teacher said pretty much the same thing (nice teachers, huh ) So from about 5th grade on, I really didn't want to do "art" anymore. "Art" sucked, because I was bad at it. I was pretty good at the rest of my subjects, but science was at the top of the list, I embraced it. So perhaps I'm still rejecting "art" in favor of science in a way. Perhaps I've been misled to believe that I'm incapable of creating "art".
You are right, not all knives are "art", and that's probably where mine are for the time being. Will they ever be "art"? I guess that's up to me. I'll have to work on that. Thanks for the reality check and the opportunity for a little self-realization. :thumbup: -Matt-

Grease-man, I hope you don't feel like you owe me an apology - I don't. You expressed your opinion, which I think is fairly commonly held, but I felt there is more to what we do than that. I'm glad to see that, upon reflection, you think so too.

 

[grease-man]

Grease-man, I hope you don't feel like you owe me an apology - I don't. You expressed your opinion, which I think is fairly commonly held, but I felt there is more to what we do than that. I'm glad to see that, upon reflection, you think so too.

Thanks Nathan, the apology was more for the tone of the post rather than the content...I've had my knickers in a knot all day for some reason, I hope no one else took offense to it, including Tai.

Maybe I should stop wearing knickers? :thumbup: -Matt-

 

[CUTS LIKE A KRIS]

I think it is simple Tai- get yourself your own sub forum like other makers, where you can say your piece, talk down about science and be the king of your own castle and let the rest of us stay in the provable, scientific world. That way you can do what you want, say what you want and not insult those of us with a scientific background and who want to learn the science behind knifemaking.

 

[scottickes]

Does Bladeforums need a sub-forum for purely metallurgical information?

My personal opinion is that it does for a couple basic reasons…

First the predominance of metallurgy on this forum under the heading of “The Art of Knife Making” gives a false impression of what "art" is really all about, and a sub-forum would also give people looking for purely metallurgical information, and those who want to share the same, a place to go without all of the open philosophical clutter we’ve experienced here.

I think Mete would be a great choice for moderator, as he has set an excellent example of what a true trained, disciplined and unbiased metallurgist should be. Metallurgy does have it’s place and is of true value.

I’m really not trying to start a flame war here, but I am curious what other forum members think.

I have been struggling with whether or not I should post to this thread. I always try to steer clear of controversy, but I just can't keep silent on this. Please notice in Tai's original post how conveniently the description in the "full" name of this forum was conventiently left out. This is not “The Art of Knife Making” forum, it is “The Art of Knife Making - advice on methods, supplies and materials” forum. If metallurgy doesn't fall under the "methods" part of this forum description, then neither does grinding bevels edge up or sharpening edge down. I for one, see motives other than "the good of all" in this suggestion. I see a personal agenda that I for one find distastefull. The fact that the original post ended with a sentence that contained "I'm really not trying to start a flame war", indicates to me that Tai knew it would probably incite just that.

My apolgies Tai, but I just do not agree with you and felt that I had to speak my mind.

 

[SShepherd]

I think it is simple Tai- get yourself your own sub forum like other makers, where you can say your piece, talk down about science and be the king of your own castle and let the rest of us stay in the provable, scientific world. That way you can do what you want, say what you want and not insult those of us with a scientific background and who want to learn the science behind knifemaking.

exactly what I said before

 

[Mike Krall]

I like that all of everything is here in Shop Talk... a knife has a lot of different views and points.

My heartache with this sub-forum is all the good information that disappears into it's size. It has a good search engine, if you can use it, but there are 34,000+ threads and who knows how many posts. It is not easy to come up with pertinent data so the resource is largely wasted as a reference.

Recently here there has been the option of putting a prefix on a thread title... "How To", "Recommendation", etc. It might be helpful to have more prefixes... "Metallurgy", for one, maybe. I don't believe it serves to have a lot of prefixes, though. The inevitability is, a truly great discussion on disc grinder's ends up under "Newbee" because someone who didn't know shit about them asked the question there and the "heavy hitters" cruising the "Newbee" section, looking to help, took the topic on a run.


Mike

 

[T. Hendrickson]

I think James would like to have a sticky

 

[Jason Magruder]

I'm probably going to regret jumping into the fire here but it's been on my mind all day.

Tai, from my experience of you, you seem to have a very limited view of what "art" is and more importantly what it is not.

Merriam-Webster's lists the following under art:
1 : skill acquired by experience, study, or observation <the art of making friends>
2 a : a branch of learning: (1) : one of the humanities (2) plural : LIBERAL ARTS b archaic : LEARNING, SCHOLARSHIP
3 : an occupation requiring knowledge or skill <the art of organ building>
4 a : the conscious use of skill and creative imagination especially in the production of aesthetic objects; also : works so produced b (1) : FINE ARTS

That seems to cover pretty well the "art" of metallurgy.

Wikipedia has a more broad definition that I think is more suitable for this discussion though:
"Art is the process or product of deliberately arranging elements in a way that appeals to the senses or emotions."

Now based upon that definition, art in knives can have different meanings to different people. To some people art is a pleasing outline and complementary materials and colors. To another it might mean fit, finish, and symmetry. To still others art is utility, function usefulness, and performance. To me and many others on this forum a knife that is pleasing to look at, with perfect fit and finish, top shelf handle materials, and a poor heat treat might as well be made from age hardened cheese. If I know or suspect that the steel selection and or heat treat was not done with as much thought and care as any other aspect of it's creation or the knife won't function first and foremost as a cutting tool then it doesn't arouse my senses or emotions and is therefore not art TO ME. To another person it may very well be the pinnacle of perfection.


Everyone has their own idea of what constitutes art. All of them are right. To say that what some people consider the most important part of the art of knifemaking isn't art and doesn't belong with what you consider art seems to me very arrogant and narrow minded.

 

[James_Terrio]

...might as well be made from age hardened cheese...

Indeed.

I think James would like to have a sticky

Now there's an idea! Let's just have a sticky

And by the way, wasn't this thread supposed to be about metallurgy? As in, how the heck do I treat such-and-such a steel to get the best performance out of it, to suit my purposes? Instead of tilting at imaginary windmills?

I think we've been had.

But I still want a sticky.

 

[mete]

Man has , since cave man days ,decorated his tools [I do it myself] ! So engraving knives [art] is hardly a new idea.

 

[Tai Goo]

I just think there is the danger of the line between the art of knife making and metallurgy becoming so blurred that it really becomes neither, and that a sub-forum would help. I also think that in many cases science is used to support unscientific opinions and philosophies, under the heading of art. I think this would be much less likely to occur in a sub-forum strictly for metallurgy.

I probably should have just made my original post and not said anything else yesterday.

I'm not anti-science, but I am anti-scientism. We need to recognize the difference between the two.