Micarta - When is it appropriate for use?

[giant1]

Hi all, I am a newbie and have been reading this thread with interest and have learned quite a bit from the posts, so please don't shoot me if my questions are dumb.

I have seen high end knives with Elephant Ivory scales. I always thought this to be a banned product due to illegal harvesting. Is this right?

Secondly following on from the comment that some natural materials used for scales shrink over time, does this also apply to Elephant Ivory?

How can one stop or prevent the shrinking?

I Love this forum and have learned quite a bit from reading the posts, and I hope that nobody minds me barging in on this thread.

Thanks

 

[Kevin Jones]

Hi all, I am a newbie and have been reading this thread with interest and have learned quite a bit from the posts, so please don't shoot me if my questions are dumb.

I have seen high end knives with Elephant Ivory scales. I always thought this to be a banned product due to illegal harvesting. Is this right?

Secondly following on from the comment that some natural materials used for scales shrink over time, does this also apply to Elephant Ivory?

How can one stop or prevent the shrinking?

I Love this forum and have learned quite a bit from reading the posts, and I hope that nobody minds me barging in on this thread.

Thanks

You see elephant ivory being referred to as "pre-ban" which refers to the particular ivory being harvested prior to the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species ban levied in 1989. If you have official documentation to prove your ivory was harvested prior to this ban it is legal.

Yes, elephant ivory (as all ivory) will shrink and/or crack if not properly cut, cured, worked to shape by maker and stored under proper conditions. IMO, elephant ivory especially gets negative and inaccurately labeled as an inferior handle material by many. However if the above conditions are addressed, there is usually not a problem. I have a knife with elephant ivory that is nine years old with flawless ivory.

Yes, shrinking can be stopped or reduced by keeping the ivory out of heat or direct sunlight, maintaining stable humidity and the maker must be experienced in working or shaping the ivory slowly under low temperature and setting the pins slightly oversized can help.

You are always welcome to participate in any thread discussion and there is such thing as a dumb question around here.

 

[RogerP]

I don't care how careful and skilled the maker is with how he cuts and works the ivory, there is absolutely no guarantee that it won't shrink or crack somewhere down the road. I have also owned an ivory piece that remained stable for over a decade. Another shrunk up like a sumbitch. You need to understand your own environmental conditions to best guage the risk of it happening to you - but it is still an educated guess. I love the ivories, but will almost always specify a single piece with a full hidden tang. My experience with scales made of any natural material (save pearl) has NOT been good.

Roger

 

[giant1]

I don't care how careful and skilled the maker is with how he cuts and works the ivory, there is absolutely no guarantee that it won't shrink or crack somewhere down the road. I have also owned an ivory piece that remained stable for over a decade. Another shrunk up like a sumbitch. You need to understand your own environmental conditions to best guage the risk of it happening to you - but it is still an educated guess. I love the ivories, but will almost always specify a single piece with a full hidden tang. My experience with scales made of any natural material (save pearl) has NOT been good.

Roger

Roger

Newbie here chiming in for another go.

You are fighting your case very hard. You obviously feel strongly about this.

Why is it that so many makers use natural products for scales if there are going to be the inevitable problems?
Without quoting a number, I would say that a high percentage of all high end knives use natural materials which apparently will shrink or crack at some stage. I am guessing there must be a lot of upset owners out there as the knives deteriorate???? (Remebering that most of these knives sit on display somewhere)

Please don't take this post as argumentative, I am just stating an observation which is at odds with your case.

Kevin, thanks for your response.

Giant1

 

[NDallyn]

My experience with scales made of any natural material (save pearl) has NOT been good.

Roger

Unstabilized scales definitely require more maintenance and some storage precautions. The stuff that I've been using from WSSI works with about the same effort as a synthetic (micarta) and won't absorb moisture, so far I'm very happy with it. I know some makers and collectors don't like stabilized wood as it can feel like "plastic" but it has definitely solved some issues for me. Have you or do you own any full-tang blades with stabilized scales?

I'm not trying to be a smartass or anything like that, but I use both stabilized (box elder and buckeye burl, koa, spalt maple) and non-stabilized woods (ironwood, ziricote, ebony) so I'm interested in what collectors have experienced and/or prefer.

Have a good one,

Nathan

 

[Kevin Jones]

I don't care how careful and skilled the maker is with how he cuts and works the ivory, there is absolutely no guarantee that it won't shrink or crack somewhere down the road. I have also owned an ivory piece that remained stable for over a decade. Another shrunk up like a sumbitch. You need to understand your own environmental conditions to best guage the risk of it happening to you - but it is still an educated guess. I love the ivories, but will almost always specify a single piece with a full hidden tang. My experience with scales made of any natural material (save pearl) has NOT been good.

Roger

I sure wasn't offering any guarantees, just stating that ivory gets a bad wrap as a fragile material that's destined to failure, when many times it's controllable elements and factors causing it to fail not the material itself.

In addition to my post above, it's also important to coat the ivory with oil about twice a year. I find that camellia oil works quite well, as it doesn't evaporate fast and it darkens the colors and leaves a nice glow or sheen.

Or perhaps, I don't know what I'm talking about and have just been lucky with my ivory. Let me knock on wood, if I can find any in this world of plastic we live in.

 

[Don Hanson III]

Roger, I'm sorry you've had some trouble with scales but I just have to add:

I have made over 1000 folders and a few fixed blades with fossil and pre-band ivory scales. I have only had trouble with 3 or 4 knives (long ago), which I replaced the scales for the cost of the ivory.

There are no guarantees but as Kevin stated, it has a lot to do with how the ivory is treated before the knife is delivered.

I don't use stabilized ivory but I do store my ivory at lest one year, usually two or three years and apply a few different procedures before use. I also buy the best quality materials available.

 

[Kohai999]

Roger, I'm sorry you've had some trouble with scales but I just have to add:

I have made over 1000 folders and a few fixed blades with fossil and pre-band ivory scales. I have only had trouble with 3 or 4 knives (long ago), which I replaced the scales for the cost of the ivory.

I can appreciate this, Don, however, the very nature of the statement is why I personally don't care for ivory, and fully accept that this is the minority.

I like Micarta very much, especially Ivory Micarta. To all those that love ivory, but may be considering an integral, I would say Ivory Micarta is the ONLY option to consider.

I also like black Micarta, burgundy and polished green. I would not turn away from a knife that I liked because it had Micarta, but would if it had ivory.

This leaves more for everyone else.

I have had great luck with stag.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[RogerP]

Roger

Newbie here chiming in for another go.

You are fighting your case very hard. You obviously feel strongly about this.

Why is it that so many makers use natural products for scales if there are going to be the inevitable problems?
Without quoting a number, I would say that a high percentage of all high end knives use natural materials which apparently will shrink or crack at some stage. I am guessing there must be a lot of upset owners out there as the knives deteriorate???? (Remebering that most of these knives sit on display somewhere)

Please don't take this post as argumentative, I am just stating an observation which is at odds with your case.

Kevin, thanks for your response.

Giant1

You misunderstand me quite fundamentally Giant1. I'm not fighting anything - or trying to convince anyone of anything - just relating my experiences. It certainly makes little personal difference to me what choices others make in terms of design and materials of their custom knives. The whole idea of custom knives is that you get to have it your way, not that you must have it my way. There are a great many things in life about which I hold very strong feelings indeed - knife handle material is not among them.

Also, please understand that my comments relate not to the use of natural materials in general (ALL my knives are so equipped) but to the use of such materials on full exposed tangs or frame handles. On the majority of such knives I have owned, I have had natural materials shrink. And I'm not talking users here - the vast majority of knives I have bought - like 95% or better - have never seen any use by me. But I AM talking all variety of natural material from wood (stabilized and not), to ivory to stag to horn (buffalo, sheep).

I have four honest-to-goodness seasons where I live, and even though the knives are stored indoors, dramatic changes in climate over time tend to do their thing more often than not. (Mostly, I think it is the dry indoor heat of winter that sucks the last bit of moisture out of stuff). That's why I choose full hidden tangs for my fixed blades (well, not the only reason, but certainly among the most important). I have had close to ZERO problems with knives so constructed. Like I said in my original post - you have to be aware of your own atmoshperic reality and how it impact on natural materials over time. I suspect if you live in south Florida - with constant heat and realtively constant humidity - scale shrinkage may not be the same issue for you.

Kevin - I uderstand that you're not offering any guarantee - I am just pointing out that maker skill cannot guarantee stability of natural materials, and converseley, when these materials shift, it is not necessarily due to some failure on the part of the maker. Indeed - this is the reason why many makers explicitly do NOT warrant against such an eventuality.

Don - your success rate is impressive indeed and you are to be commended. But it bears mentioning that the makers of the knives where I have had these difficulties are - like yourself - among the very best.

On ivory - Jerry recommended to me some time ago a twice-a-year 24 hr. immersion in mineral oil. That has served me very well on my full tang ivory knives.

Roger

 

[Don Hanson III]

I can appreciate this, Don, however, the very nature of the statement is why I personally don't care for ivory, and fully accept that this is the minority.

I like Micarta very much, especially Ivory Micarta. To all those that love ivory, but may be considering an integral, I would say Ivory Micarta is the ONLY option to consider.

I also like black Micarta, burgundy and polished green. I would not turn away from a knife that I liked because it had Micarta, but would if it had ivory.

This leaves more for everyone else.

I have had great luck with stag.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

I can appreciate this also, STeven. I like micarta to.

Just a small example: Remember the green (fresh out of the ground) mammoth you and I bought at Blade a couple years ago? An inexperienced maker would have gone home and used it on a knife in the next few months, big trouble here. I'm still waiting on mine to dry.

 

[Don Hanson III]

Very well said Roger!

I also wanted to add: Most everyones experience with ivory will be different.

And, what Roger said about the dry indoor heat in homes up north. From my experience, this will dry out natural handle materials quicker than anything. And probably micarta also.....really.

 

[Kevin Jones]

I keep a glass of water in my dispaly cases and it's amazing how fast it evaporates. This probably helps in keeping the ivory from drying out.
I have season changes also.

 

[Jon Brand]

Since its very important to keep carbon steel dry, how does the glass of water effect that?

 

[Kevin Jones]

Since its very important to keep carbon steel dry, how does the glass of water effect that?

Good question as I had the same concern as I decided to place the water. However as I have mostly Damascus (little less prone to corrosion than carbon steel IMO) and the fact that I keep a thin coat of Camellia oil on my blades, I decided to place the water and keep close watch for corrosion and I have had none.

Not to sound like a commercial for Camellia oil, however as with ivory, I place a drop, spread it evenly over the entire blade and it provides protection, gives a nice sheen (not too much, not to little), stays on for weeks without evaporating and does not become sticky/gummy and attract dust and dirt like some I have used.

Camellia oil has been use by bladesmiths in the orient for hundreds of years to protect fine swords.

 

[Jared Stenoien]

more custom micarta posted today
http://s185.photobucket.com/albums/x45/shadetrees/?start=all

 

[Kevin Jones]

Sorry Jared, but I just don't get it.
What would that stuff look good on

 

[Bladeandbarrel]

bowling balls?

The brown burlap looks pretty neat. The rest are a little too fruity for me

 

[Jared Stenoien]

I'm mainly just showing that you really aren't limited to single tones when using micarta, as many people here seem to think. My favorite kind is the kind that looks exactly box elder burl. You get the look of box elder burl, and the toughness of micarta.

 

[Joss]

I like those Jared. Some are a bit too colorful, but I like the underlying idea

 

[Kevin Jones]

OK, I have to admit here are two examples where ivory micarta handles are absolutely beautiful. I was actually seriously considering the Loveless for purchase about a year ago, however lost it as I was bogged down deciding if I could live with a micarta handle. My loss. someone else’s gain.

Tharcis Holtzer Fighter. Photo borrowed from another thread.