Mike ...

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CKD

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Mike,

The last thing this industry needs is another maker who makes knives exactly like the rest of the market with the same materials, strengths and such. Most of those knives are "stale", they are "boring" and they "don't sell" worth a flip. I translate that to complete market boredom ...

In my honest opinion, anyone with the sales track you've created (which I've seen ... personally), in such a short time (2-3 years?), and with the customer repeat business (what ... 50-60-70%?) does not need to join any consensus thinking patterns, especially when it comes to design, technique and especially metallurgical trends and certainly sales strategies. Besides, anyone that thinks metallurgy is a stagnant science, or more humorously, standardized by the Guild or ABS is off their rocker! Sure, there are many members of the two that are professional and very profound thinkers, but the "cutting edge" of the science is "way" outside of their department.

As the owner of the technique or technology, you know better than anyone what it's performance characteristics are, and what the buyer can expect, benefits or otherwise. Pull it together, put it in your line under the brand name and let the market decide it's fate.

Don't forget, there is not a maker around that would not employ a new technique or technology as a sales weapon, were they to have one. Man, the name of this game is to be one step ahead of the pack. Sure, you're going to get some heated reaction and disbelief ... that's what you want! In fact, that's the first sign one the road to success!

"SharpFusion" ... man, what a name!

BTW: My degree was in Chemistry. It qualified me to wash test tubes at Y-12 for $24k.

Alex
 
I agree completely with what has been posted CKD. If some people have a problem with a forward thinker like Mike Snody then that is their problem. I for one am excited by the possibilities that this new technology might bring to light.
 
CDK wrote
"Don't forget, there is not a maker around that would not employ a new technique or technology as a sales weapon, were they to have one. Man, the name of this game is to be one step ahead of the pack. Sure, you're going to get some heated reaction and disbelief ... that's what you want! In fact, that's the first sign one the road to success! "
***********************************

I thought the idea was to make a good knife.

Most of the new metallurgy is designed around making parts cheaper that will do the job. To this end a great deal of case hardening alloys have been developed. Most new metal alloys are product specific, a type of "designer alloy". I do not know of too many new developments in cutting technology which relate to hand held knives.

The powder alloy technologies offer small grain and carbide sizes which is good in a blade, but these higher alloys often create huge percentages of carbides which, by their nature, are brittle.

To be sure no single group has, or should have, a strangle hold on innovation. It is true that the "old" ways of thinking are outdated -- that is why we call them old. But, just like the wheel, the screw and fire, they are still useful and productive.

I do not discount anything, but it is equally important not to jump on every new technology as if it were "the" solution.

I hope Mike or anyone developing their ideas, is successful. I am not attacking his ideas, just questioning his choices.

Richard Furrer
Sturgeon Bay, WI
 
CKD
You are out of line.
Metalurgy is not standardized by either the ABS or the Guild nor is is stagnant. IT is one thing to blow smoke up someones skirt it is another to attack and belittle. You stated that the members of the ABS and Guild do not "think outside of the box." Do you really believe that? Technology is a great thing and is embraced by both of these groups. Because you want to curry favor or blow smoke does not mean you need to geat carried away with your thoughts. Put a bridle on that pony before it runs away.
jerry fisk
 
Just my .02- I don't think Alex was attacking the ABS or the Guild and their standards. I read it as an endorsement of their members for trying new stuff. Hope we just have a little misunderstanding here. Please read it again, Jerry. Thanks.:)
 
Let's keep it civil and on point gents. Thanks.
 
I think that I must re-think my total agreement with what was expressed by Alex in his post. I can not agree that "the "cutting edge" of the science is "way" outside of their department" when it comes to members of the ABS and Guild. I am sure that some of these makers are also metallurgists and there are others that understand metallurgy completely because they have studied it with a passion. To think or say otherwise is an underserved slight to these makers.

I believe totally in what Mike is doing. People that push the boundries of their chosen fields can bring inspiration and innovation to those fields of endeavor. Whether they succeed or not, they make people think. Very often that can lead to wonderous things. We must encourage people to push the boundies, not try to bridle their enthusiasm.

I feel sorry for those that stick their heads in the sand and think that they already know all that is important to know. These people have no imagination and are happy with the status quo. If the Wright brothers had listened to people like that they would never have gotten off the ground. What a terrible shame that would have been.
 
I don't think that CKD was attacking any organization.

It appears that this thread was started in reply to the stellite thread started by Mike Snody that has digressed to toddler rhetoric by ABS members. If anyone is out of line it is Larry Harley and Steve Schwarzer. Where was the request for civility on that thread? Mike don't fall for this tit for tat by these Will Rogers diplomacy award winners, when you have the type of success that you have had in a short two year time frame this is inevitable. Keep up the good work.

Shane
 
I also don't think that Alex was trying to insult the whole of the membership of the ABS and Guild. That would be totally out of character. I am sure that this thread was posted out of frustration with the antics of some of the members of the above mentioned groups. Still, the comment did seem to be rather all encompassing.
 
Keith-Your post was not here when I replied so for the record, I never thought that you were implying that about CKD. I have enjoyed reading all of your posts on this forum. They have been fair and of substance and I am frustrated tonight.

Shane
 
Originally posted by Richard Furrer
I thought the idea was to make a good knife.

Most of the new metallurgy is designed around making parts cheaper that will do the job. To this end a great deal of case hardening alloys have been developed. Most new metal alloys are product specific, a type of "designer alloy". I do not know of too many new developments in cutting technology which relate to hand held knives.

The powder alloy technologies offer small grain and carbide sizes which is good in a blade, but these higher alloys often create huge percentages of carbides which, by their nature, are brittle.
Click to expand...

To be sure, few alloys if any are developed specifically for knives, at least not the kind we make. Not all however are "designed around making parts cheaper". Many are designed to make machines and tools better, stronger, and tougher. Knifemakers adapt those alloys to their use, particularly those which have been developed for industrial cutting, stamping or other high stress operations.

The idea that powder metallurgy results in brittle steels is simply wrong, or at least too sweeping a generalization. CPM-3V is decidedly NOT brittle, and CPM-1V has twice the impact resistance of S7, and is most certainly not brittle.

Most of us work very hard at stretching the standards or trying to establish new ones. I think the simple point that Alex was trying to make is that it is unseemly for anyone or group within knifemaking to challenge new ideas out of hand without having themselves tested their merits. Personally, I think we are in a very exciting time in knifemaking, having available to us an unprecedented array of technologies to draw upon. To think some of these will not result in major advance in knifemaking is naive.
 
ShaneB,

I asked to keep it civil precisely so that it wouldn't degrade into what the other thread has turned into.

Since we don't promote personal attacks here, do me a favor and edit your post above where you make some remarks about some knifemakers you have taken exception to.

I don't argue that you're entitled to your opinion, only the method by which you've expressed it here.

Thanks.

Oh, and welcome to the forums.
 
Richard, Keith and Jerry H
I agree that modern technology and the use of modern machines has made great inroads in the field of knifemaking. Both the ABS and Guild encourages stretching the normal boundries in all fields of knifemaking. Many people outside of these two groups do their part in stretching it as well. What I read into what CKD said was that the "cutting edge" was "outside the box" of those organizations members. I do not believe that is true and know how hard many of those people work towards improving what they do. At the time I considered it a slam on those hard working folks that continue to dig a bit harder. As long as it was not a slam I stand corrected.
fisk
 
Jerry F, I agree completely, and am a probationary member of the Guild. If my wife would put up with the noise in addition to the dirt I make already, I'd likely want to join the ABS as well. I don't think anything at all was aimed at those organizations. The remarks were in response to comments on the other thread which suggested the contributions of newer makers were not worthy. Few have contributed more than you and a great many other members of those organizations. I also happen to know that Alex (aka CKD) grew up under the tutelage of a very early guild member, Rade Hawkins.
 
Jerry, having spent much time getting to know members of the ABS I fully realize the tremendous contributions that this fine organization has given to the world of knives. Damascus is what it is today because of the work of Bill Moran. Ed Fowler works a lot of 18 hour day, 7 day weeks trying to improve on the forged blade and he has been very successful. You have been working at testing different steels and cable damascus to see what is the best way to quench these steels to get the ultimate performance out of them. Believe me I appreciate all the hard work those I mentioned and the many other members of the ABS put into making better forged knives for me.

To all of you that are going the extra mile to someday make that illusive perfect knife, I say thank you. It is because of you that I love this industry as much as I do. Each of you that constantly tries to make his or her knives better and passes on to others how they have achieved these improvements is, in their own way, helping bit by bit to make us that perfect knife. Please don't let these petty little arguements, that don't amount to a hill of beans in the grand scheme of things, dissuade you from continuing with exactly what you are doing.

My hopes for the future of knife making rest on your able shoulders.
 
Okay, first a disclaimer:

I just want to start off by saying I don't have $hitt for credentials when it comes to metallurgy. I am just an average Joe six-pack who loves knives. This is just my $.02. Take it as you will... I was going to post this on the other thread, but Blues closed it before I had a chance.

What does the prospect of "SharpFusion" mean to me? I am very excited about this development. I don't like to sharpen blades all the time. I just want to use them as needed. This is one reason why I love Talonite. Talonite remains sharp enough for a very long time. Not to mention the corrosion resistance. I just can't afford Talonite or Stellite blades on every knife I buy. :(

Another thing I notice about Talonite/Stellite is that it is somewhat brittle. I definitely reach for something other than my Camillus Talon or Mayo TNT (my favorite knife) when I have to cut something that may put lateral force on the blade.

So, for an average knife user such as myself, I could have a Sharpfusion blade that has the cutting ability and wear resistance of Talonite/Stellite with the flexibility and strength of a traditional steel blade. It seems to be the best of both worlds. If it lives up to these demands, not that I doubt it Mike (and Brad D.), then it seems like a win win situation for the makers that utilize this product, and the customers. I can't wait to try BladeFusion out for myself. :D

There will always be room for both new technology, and old world craftsmanship, in the hearts of knife enthusiasts. What is most important, is that we ALL stick together during these troubled times.


Best regards,
Joe M.
 
Mike it looks like Buck had the idea a few years ago. Is your blade sharpened on one side only?
 
My whole comment was actually directed to Mike, personally and openly to diffuse his plight. Let me restate it for the record and see if I can make it a bit more clear.

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Mike ... don't try to put the technology or new concept up for debate here. You know who you are and what you know to be true about the product. If you know it's strong, run with it!

What I recommend is, tighten your control (who among us could endorse it anyway? That's for the user to determine ... the man who's money is riding on it.), shore up your production process and trade branding. Then, produce the product in designs that will compliment the technology and bring it to market. The buyers will decide it's fate. No one is going to sell it, but you. No one is going to back the warranty, or quality control, but you ... not the ABS, nor the Guild! The fate of Snody Knives is in your hands!

So far, those have been very good hands! Trust them!
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No need to respond here ... I'm not up for any more of this! Speaking of saddling up ponies ... why does mine look like a "Dragon"?

Alex Whetsell
AtlantaVirtual.com
 
Jerry wrote :

"The idea that powder metallurgy results in brittle steels is simply wrong, or at least too sweeping a generalization. CPM-3V is decidedly NOT brittle, and CPM-1V has twice the impact resistance of S7, and is most certainly not brittle"

I believe this depends on the matrix supporting the carbide and the type of heat treatment given. Cross-section also plays a major role. Most of the dies I have seen are heat treated to the high 40'S or low 50"s Rockwell, enough to avoid distortion under load and the remaining life of the die is from the carbides creating a high wear resistance to the object being cut/sheared, swaged or whatever. That does not change the nature of the carbide itself, but rather the matrix it is enclosed in. Also via controll over austenizing temps you can dictate how much carbon is allowed into carbide form and how much remains in the matrix -- in efect tweeking the performace of the alloy.

When dealing in the thinner cross-section of hand held cutlery the carbide brittleness does rear its ugly head. I have seen it in my work and am designing around this metallurgic fact. We tend to want a very hard edge and in these higher alloy steels this often leads to a lack of ductility.
Then again do we really expect a knife to bend 180 degrees or even 90? Is that a design parameter than we need to address? Would you not stop at about 15 degrees and go get a crow bar?

I suppose it all depends on what you are looking for in the product. I forge my work and do my own heat treating because I enjoy the process and like the control given in plain carbon steels. The higher alloy steels necessitate different production methods and further remove me from the process.

Oh, in the off chance of being controversial I think the Steve Schwarzer is fully capable of fighting his own battles. As will I if it comes to that, but I prefer to be civil and inquisitive. I have a lot to learn in general and forums like this are invaluable to that end.

Richard Furrer
Sturgeon Bay, WI
 
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