Mike ...

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Richard, I am genuinely trying to be civil. Brittleness may have "reared it ugly head" in your experience, but there are other experiences where it has not. Later generations of CPM employ another mechanism to control brittleness and that is by adjusting the elemental composition of the steel to favor the formation of small carbides (Vanadium) over the larger carbides (Chromium). Their process of powdering the steel, through atomizing it in cold temperatures, is specifically designed to make surrounding matrix a fine structure, unlike any other steels.

What "battles" are you referring to?
 
Jerry,
The battle I referred to was brought up by Shane B when he suggested that Larry Harley was a spokesman for the views of Steve Schwarzer. I think it odd that such a suggestion be raised. Obviously Shane B has never met Schwarzer, for if he had it would be apparent that though Steve uses his mouth quite a bit ;) and he "could" find a use for another to talk while he is inhaling or eating through the other, I think it would not be Larry's mouth he would chose as Larry's is about as active as his own. In point of fact if any could be claimed to trumpet Schwarzer it would be me, but I assure you all views I express are my own, not Steve's , not Larry's and certainly not the ABS or Guild. I have a difficult enough time choosing my own words without involving groups of others.
Jerry I'm sorry for the confusion. I tend to reply to all the prior posts rather than singling one out and replying in series. You have indeed been civil, even more than I.

As to carbides.
I have found them to be brittle and I still stand by the assumption that they are by their nature brittle. The Crucible CPM steels (even the high vanadium alloys) contain a grouping of alloys designed to counteract this brittleness. The reason why they are shock resistant is the distribution of these carbide clusters. The powder aspect of the process, as you mentioned, forces small grain and an even distribution of the said carbides. A paper was written by Wadsworth and Sherby on this even distribution of carbides to counteract brittleness. Another carbide paper was written by Stickles on 52100 for the bearing industry. Both speak of an even distribution leading to more ductile alloys.
Most of my recent work revolves around low alloy large carbide networks, namely vanadium/carbon/iron. The type that are more macro in structure and can be seen with the naked eye -- namely wootz and its variations. To that end I have been seeking out similar alloys and methods of production and have spoken to few universities on the subject. It is very possible that I am assuming that my experiences are universal and this may be a large error on my part.I assume that the strength you witness in the Crucible CPM steels is directly related to the special process yielding a small isolated grain size and even carbide distribution. I urge those working it to do stock removal only so as not to disturb the structure which was forged at the mill under very close watch/control. If it works then I can hardly say anything against it can I? Only that they have developed a method of production to partly counteract the nature of the carbide.

As to vanadium.
There are many alloys that form carbides in the CPM steels -- even the V steels they make. The vanadium, though present in high percentages is not the "major" alloy since they have chromium in substantially larger percentages. The specs I have on CPM 3V are:
carbon 0.80%
chromium 7.50%
vanadium 2.75%
molybdenum 1.30%
the balance is iron

I agree with you that the vanadium forms small, hard carbides (titanium carbide is the only carbide harder that I know of), but with all those other alloys and such little carbon to bond with each alloy singly, so what you actually get are relatively large carbide clusters which are evenly distributed due to the powdering process. You can see that the steel requires a great amount of time to go into solution if you study the heat treatment they recommend for the 3V -- a 20-45 minute hold time from 1875-2050F is long and high. This is due to these carbide structures and the alloy content.

Richard Furrer
Sturgeon Bay, WI
 
Richard, I think you'll find that "large carbide clusters " are precisely what CPM steels were designed to eliminate. Here are some references.

http://www.pma.org/MAGAZINE/1997/September/ToolStee/997tool.htm

http://www.crucibleservice.com/cruts.htm

The photomicrographs I've seen of wootz, done by Pendray et al, show very fine carbides arranged into visible (just barely) bands. As I recall the size was in the low micron range. I know that other studies on antique blades revealed larger macro-carbides.

I think you'll find that the hardening temperatures given for CPM-3V is for pieces up to 2" thick and represents the time needed to insure the center of such a piece is fully up to temperature. 440C calls for a soak time of 30-45 minutes.

I've also been told by Crucible that 3V has been successfully forged and they offer no prohibition against it, though likely little would be gained in grain refinement.
 
Richard,

Not trying to get embroiled in the debate, but I think tungsten, not titanium, is the carbide that is harder than vanadium.
 
Tungsten carbide is not harder that Vanadium carbide, but they are very close!

I couldnt find Titanium carbide, but the list I have shows the following, from hardest to softest.

1) Vanadium Carbide Rc 84

2) Tungsten Carbide Rc 82

3) Molybdenum Carbide Rc 78

4) Chromium Carbide Rc 76

5) Iron Carbide Rc 75
 
Richard ,


I think ShaneBs' comment came from the post made in the locked thread . As to this thread and all the respondants , I would like to say thanks for sharing such a vast array of knowledge . We end users of the blades made by the likes of Hossom , Rob , Snody certainly appreciate the years spent perfecting and advancing the custom knife market . Thanks for all the info. and links to other sites .


Regards,

Jerry
 
I have to agree with how informative this thread has been. Thanks guys, this type of information and discussion is why I think that Bladeforums is the best place to increase knowledge about knives.
 
Hello all,
The table below is what I have found on carbide hardness. Hardness is actually a misnomer as carbides are measured more in wear resistance than true hardness, but you can covert the Vickers into Rockwell with this chart:
http://www.hardnesstesters.com/hardness_conversion_high.htm



Type Carbide
Microhardness in Vickers (Approximate Values)
Iron Carbide (Fe3C) 1100
Chromium Carbide (Cr3C2) 1800
Molybdenum Carbide (Mo2C) 1800
Tungsten Carbide (WC) 2100
Columbium Carbide (CbC) 2400
Tungsten Carbide (W2C) 2500
Silicon Carbide (SiC) 2500
Vanadium Carbide (VC) 2800
Titanium Carbide (TiC) 3200

The issue with titanium is that is likes oxygen more than carbon or iron so it is hard to keep in the steel.
Also note the atomic weight of the chromium carbide (i.e. size) as compared to the likely structures of the other carbides. I believe that those given are the most common chemical structures.

They are hard little buggers and brittle, but good to have.

Richard Furrer
Sturgeon Bay, WI
 
The battle I referred to was brought up by Shane B when he suggested that Larry Harley was a spokesman for the views of Steve Schwarzer. I think it odd that such a suggestion be raised. Obviously Shane B has never met Schwarzer, for if he had it would be apparent that though Steve uses his mouth quite a bit and he "could" find a use for another to talk while he is inhaling or eating through the other, I think it would not be Larry's mouth he would chose as Larry's is about as active as his own. In point of fact if any could be claimed to trumpet Schwarzer it would be me, but I assure you all views I express are my own, not Steve's , not Larry's and certainly not the ABS or Guild.
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Richard, I find it odd that you find it odd that I raised the suggestion. You are right, I have never met Schwarzer and I do not know him. I only know him from the email that he sent to Larry Harley to include in his post on the now locked Sharpfusion thread started by Mike Snody. I find it odd that you find such a suggestion odd when it is obvious that you have read the thread since it appears that you joined Blade Forums just to post on it. I wonder whose trumpet that makes you? I would not want to make any other suggestions that could be interpreted odd so I will leave it at that. It is my interpretation that Schwarzer was allowing Larry Harley to speak for him since he did not register and post for himself. That is my personal interpretation and I am free to state it on Blade Forums as this is America and May God Bless her during these troubled times!

-------Excerpt from Harley's post in locked Sharpfusion thread--------

-----email from Harley to Schwarzer that Harley posted ---------------
steve
make any changes u fell necessary before i send this to mike snotty

-------email from Schwarzer to Harley that Schwarzer had Harley post--

Just my openion that means nothing to any one but me. After reading your
email here is my responce to the tit and tat.
He has one little shot. Kind of reminds me of the Knife maker with great
secrets. The little bit of knowledge is so precious to them they want to
keep to them selves. Most people on the cutting edge of technology are very
centered and free with knowledge. From what I can tell from your email
this is nothing more than a well worked parlor trick. Stellite makes a fair
blade but it is hard to sharpen in the field and it will roll up like a old
cat wanting his belly rubbed when exposed to a hard surface in thin
sections. It excels as a wear surface and has good corrosion resistance. I
guess that is why it is so popular in industry but those qualities Dont
always make a good cutting edge. The proof is in public testing. If this
intellectual giant wants to prove his process let him show up at Arkansas
and prove its ability as a knife. The cutting contests are the proof. Other
wise it is just another sharp object that looks like a knife. These welded
edges have been on my lawn mower blades for years . Ed Shemp and the Montana
gang use this technology to improve the life of harvesting cutters i.e..
movers and reapers. Time is money they Don't want to resharpen the tools so
often. This concept would lead you to believe that it would help a knife.
Well it aint so. Yes stellite will cut.Remember the blade I forged from it.
But it is a real bitch to sharpen in the field. Question when was the last
time you tied your knife in a knot while skinning a hog? Stellite as a knife
is fine for a dish washer or an oil platform where rust will kill any thing
ferrous with out constant maintenance. If you want a knife that cuts
marginally well and doesn't rust and you have a handy belt grinder to
resharpen it and you want to tie it in a knot when it quits cutting these
bimetal blades are just the trick. A solid Stellite or Tallonite blade will
do the same thing just keep a diamond sharpening stone in your pocket. This
is a very viable way to make a knife it is just nothing new nor does it
exhibit qualities that would extend the use or workability of a proper
knife.
If some body really wants to know about stellite or tallonite edges have
them check out the guild directory several of the guild Knife makers have
used this material for years. They can give you performance info. But what
do I know .
I only have thirty years in the business and I am still on a learning curve.
Why Don't you just leave this old wore out down hiller alone. He may be in
a ditch welding up a sewer pipe that you are going to need one day. Steve
Schwarzer Master Bladesmith
----- Original Message -----
snotty
i have grown weary of this it will be my last post all that can happen is it spiral out of controll
see u at the bladesmith school in ark u can show me up then
harley


----------------End of excerpt from Sharpfusion thread---------------

Harleys post can be viewed in full here

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=168995&pagenumber=4

Mike Partner, I would further defend you but I would not want to insult the intelligence of the members of Blade Forums. Anyone out of kindergarten knows to disregard anything said in a post where you are addressed as "Snotty" instead of Snody. The success that you have achieved in the short time you have been a maker, what is it now 2 years? It speaks for itself. So does the quality of your knives. Keep up the great work brother!

Shane
 
...and lest the curmudgeonly moderator step in here to arbitrate arguments (again) let's PLEASE not get into any mudslinging.

Thanks, and now back to your regular programming.
 
The battle I referred to was brought up by Shane B when he suggested that Larry Harley was a spokesman for the views of Steve Schwarzer. I think it odd that such a suggestion be raised.
Click to expand...

Richard Furrer, I agree with Shane. I found it odd that you find it odd since it is a fact and in print on the other thread.

ShaneB, I met you at the SECKS show. Relax hoss, don't worry about Richard Furrer's post. Nearly every post that he has posted has been disputed by a reputable knifemaker.

I personally am glad to see how members of the ABS and KMG conduct themselves on this forum. Whether members choose to be professional or childish and ridiculous is a reflection on both organizations IMHO. When I buy a custom knife, part of why I buy it is based on the maker's personality. Some of these threads help me decide who I will buy future knives from and who I will never buy a knife from.

DerekZ
 
Originally posted by ShaneB
I don't think that CKD was attacking any organization.

It appears that this thread was started in reply to the stellite thread started by Mike Snody that has digressed to toddler rhetoric by ABS members. If anyone is out of line it is Larry Harley and Steve Schwarzer. Where was the request for civility on that thread? Mike don't fall for this tit for tat by these Will Rogers diplomacy award winners, when you have the type of success that you have had in a short two year time frame this is inevitable. Keep up the good work.

Shane
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what did i do that was out of line??? say i was a knife maker??
say i was a welder??
harley
www.lonesomepineknives.com
 
Actually Larry you said a lot more than that you were a knifemaker and welder. You liked to call Mike, "Mike Snotty" or just "Snotty". You also told everyone that Mike was just pandering to the crowd and was suckering people into believing that Sharpfusion was a worthwhile process. There was also something about Sharp Fizzle being designed to make money (nothing wrong with the make money part just the obvious ridiculing with the name Sharp Fizzle) and something else about Cornfusion.

It seems to me that you spent most of your posts ridiculing Mike's credentials, his limited amount of posts, the process and Mike himself (calling him Mike Snotty for example). Actually at many times it was you that was being snotty, although Mike did his share of this as well. You have the right to your views but to say that all you did was call yourself a knifemaker and a welder, nothing could be further from the truth.
 
Well, Shane B and DerekZ, I was wrong and should write this now before I think it over and try to justify my earlier writings.
I had viewed an earlier draft of Harley's rebuttal and when I saw it posted on the forum I glossed over it thinking it was the same one he had sent to me earlier which lacked Schwarzer's input.

For that reason and that reason alone I am sorry, embarrassed, humbled and I ask forgiveness. As to my other assertions about and around stellite and carbides, I stand behind what I wrote.

Should anyone wish to chastise me in person
my number is (920) 746-0313 central standard time.
Email: rfurrer@itol.com

Richard Furrer
Sturgeon Bay, WI
 
what did i do that was out of line??? say i was a knife maker??
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Larry Harley, What a comedian. I am ROTFLMAO that you posted this question. Prior to your last post on the locked sharpfusion thread that included the email from Schwarzer last Saturday I had a little respect left for you, I could tolerate you, and I even found some of what you said to be humoruos. I even said to myself, Self, old Harley and Snody might hit it off if they ever met in person, they might even end up pals, now wouldn't that be funny after a thread like the one that was locked. After reading your long post on the thread you hurt noone but yourself IMHO. I have lost all respect for you.

You have asked me how you were out of line. Whew! You are trying on the patience. I did not say that you were out of line. Read it again Harley, do you need the link to Hooked on Phonics?
(a friend of mine says that often, I included that for her ;) )
What I did say is "IF anyone was out of line.. "
I said IF and that was in response to Mr. Fisk saying "CKD You are out of line"

I found CKD's post to be logical after the childish rhetoric on the previous thread. All I have ever heard about CKD or Mr. Fisk were the highest compliments. Mr Fisk posted an explanation in a later post.

"At the time I considered it a slam on those hard working folks that continue to dig a bit harder. As long as it was not a slam I stand corrected.
fisk"

Mr. Fisk is a highly respected gentlemen. You Larry Harley made it a point to prove in your posts in the locked thread that you have no desire to be a highly respected gentlemen. Maybe it is a respected comedian that you are trying for. Maybe that is how you "pander". He may be on to something here folks, his sales may have multiplied after his posts on the Sharpfusion thread. He may have received hundreds of emails from new folks who now want to add a Harley knife to their collection. The value of his knives may have increased after his childish rhetoric on the locked Sharpfusion thread. I have to contemplate that theory for a minute---------------naw, that does not seem likely.

I am not an attorney, but it sounds slanderous - what you and Schwartzer said. Both of you attacked something that you have not seen or tested. Both of you attacked Mike Snody's integrity in a public arena without proof. Whatever you have seen and tested was not Mike Snody's Sharpfusion. It is Sharpfusion Harley, not Sharpfizzle, yours may have fizzled 10 or more years ago but Snody's fused. It is Mike "SNODY" and the process is "SHARPFUSION TM". Stellite experts you and Schwartz are not. If you were, you would be aware of the various forms, types and hardness's of stellite. It was not hard for me to figure out that the stellite that you and Schwartzer are speaking of is not the Stellite that Snody is using.

"Question when was the last
time you tied your knife in a knot while skinning a hog?"

Snody, I believe that when I brought up the subject of hunting at the Blade Show that your lovely wife Michelle told us that her Daddy was a hunting guide down in South Texas and Mexico. Isn't that area a haven for hogs the size of buffalo? Why don't you send some Sharpfusion knives down to her Daddy and his guides for some testing. Let the disbelievers see them in action on the hunting shows they film down there where her Daddy guides.

I along with several others saw a test SharpFusion blade at the SECKS show. We saw what it cuts and we did not have to go to Arkansas (he says with a chuckle) to witness it's "ability".



"If this
intellectual giant wants to prove his process let him show up at Arkansas
and prove its ability as a knife."

I see that Schwartzer is a comedian too. Snody, I am proud to know an 'intellectual giant" like yourself. Keep on keeping on brother! Those of us in the know know that they will all be saying that and with meaning very soon.

Harley, on your free knives thread, I have received 34 emails the last time I checked. 33 of them told me to rethink giving them away that it was a bad idea and told me what they think of you and your posts. Only 1 email asked if I was really giving knives away. All of them were polite in their correspondence. I made some new friends and their emails reinforce my theory that it was only Larry Harley that your ridiculous childish rhetoric hurt. Some of them even mentioned that they had been harrassed in emails by you and your Harleyites for posting on these threads.

I want to like you Harley, but you make it really hard with your behavior. Now if you were drunk on your own home brew, or if the sewer pipe you were welding on hit you in the head and you are suffering from brain trauma you need to admit it so these forums can get back to their regular flow. You make a mean knife Harley. Isn't there someone in your camp who can help you out in knowing when it is time to quit this childish rhetoric before your mouth digs you in any deeper?

Shane
 
Well, Shane B and DerekZ, I was wrong and should write this now before I think it over and try to justify my earlier writings.
Click to expand...

I had viewed an earlier draft of Harley's rebuttal and when I saw it posted on the forum I glossed over it thinking it was the same one he had sent to me earlier which lacked Schwarzer's input.
Click to expand...

For that reason and that reason alone I am sorry, embarrassed, humbled and I ask forgiveness. As to my other assertions about and around stellite and carbides, I stand behind what I wrote.
Click to expand...

Richard Furrer, So you did not see Schwarzer's email in the post? That is a reasonable explanation and it is all that I need to understand why you brought the subject up in this thread. Take it easy there Richard, there is no need for such an in depth apology. Such an apology could make you look guilty of much more than a "glossed over" post there fella.

Shane
 
You guys are teetering on the edge...

Lighten up or take it to email.
 
I think that Ric's apology was given in earnest and that there was no ulterior motive for it.

As far as his concerns with Mike's SharpFusion technology, I am sure that within the next few months we will be able to evaluate it for ourselves. At that point we will know which of the camps is correct.
 
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