Mineral oil Quenchant

Chris Meyer said:
I was going to make the point that it only takes a tiny amount of carbon to make steel steel.
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Sure! STEAL my steel idea, why don't ya!:D

Your reason for not posting was the same reason I had... not good to start a David vs. Goliath battle, even if the stone in my sling is a big one.

I always worry that I'll offend someone, as if I'm attacking their virtue. I know, for myself, that I would prefer to be offended initially, so long as I'm given the chance to correct my own fact sheet... but sometimes I think people attach their persona to their statements, instead of viewing this as a conglomerate search for the truth.
 
Mike, Nick, Chris, et al.,

Thanks. This is a great thread. It has been done before, but, with Tim Zowada's recent article, it obviously needs to be done again.

I will only add, for those who weren't in on the last one, my favorite rhetorical questions:

Would you fill your car's automatic transmission fluid reservoir with olive oil? Would you use bacon grease in your hydraulic press? If the answers are no, why would you not use quenching oil for quenching?

John
 
Mineral Oil work great for quenching. It also works great for hand rubbing as well. But I like using Motor Oil most of the time in my shop. But there are more out there that will do the job as well. Thanks for posting this Fitzo, good information for all who heat treats there steel. God bless and have a safe in out in the shop.

Barkes
http://my.hsonline.net/wizard
:thumbup:
 
Chris, a man whose opinion I respect once told me, "I never dispute a man on his personal 'name' forum." You made the honorable choice in not posting there.

********
In 24 years of doing my own HT, I've never used anything but commercial quench oils, so I can't tell someone that their way won't work with weasel piss mixed with ketchup. It may, but what happens if one guy uses Hunt's when the other guy used Heinz and now the blades don't harden? What if the weasel got drunk the night before? Will they be able to figure out that maybe Mrs Weasel pees different stuff from Mr Weasel and that a tiny amount of estrogen may make a world of difference? :) The point is, there are unknowns that prevent good troubleshooting.

What I can tell them is that there is a scientific approach called "commercial quench oils" that have been formulated in a purposeful fashion to help reduce the uncertainties and eliminate the variables of that part of the process. It's predictable and repeatable. As a science geek that is what I prefer.

Others mileage will vary. That's fine by me if that's how they want to do it. All I want people to undertsand is that just because it says Scotch on the bottle, it doesn't mean it's the good stuff. Just because it says Mineral Oil doesn't mean it's good quench oil. That's all. Informed decision making.

Thanks for everyone's comments. Apologies to those I've offended. I hope you might be more curious now, too.
 
Barkes Knife Shop said:
Mineral Oil work great for quenching. It also works great for hand rubbing as well. :
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I agree, before I went in with 4 other guys and got my supply of Texaco type"A" , I did a lot of reading on the web about what all the different quench oils are made of.
Mineral oil (whatever that stuff actually is) forms the basic oil that they make many quench oils from.

I tried to use a few cheaper oils to quench my blades in, and I did learn that for 5160 they did work.
Thats the fun part of this is that in a pinch many oils can cool the hot steel enough to harden it.

But Ed Fowler suggested that I go with a real tested quench oil that is a good match to the steel I work with.
This way I can compare results and build on a known oil that has proven results.

Also on another's suggestion I placed a little fish tank underwater pump that moves the oil and helps in the cooling. Does the little pump really help cool the hardened-edge steel faster?
Beats me, but it's nice to think it does.
 
Thanks Fitzo for sanity yet again. Though I must apologise for opening the can of worms in the first place...:rolleyes:

So, what would be the recommended "real" quenchant for a 1084/15n20 mix? My proportions of steels lead me to believe I should be ~1075/1080 equivalent after all the carbon migration is said and done.

Thanks again for the edumakayshun :)

-d
 
Deker, you have nothing to apologize for. I hope you didn't take offense at the way I approached this. I wanted a non-confrontational way of trying to tell you, though, that you have no real way of knowing whether your mineral oil is good stuff for quenching just because something with that generic name worked for someone else. Sincerely, I knew you would see this and was only trying to help in my own awkward way. I hope you got it that the only thing I was trying to say is that not all mineral oil is created the same. I am not looking to pick a fight with anyone, or cast aspersions.

Your problem may be the vet grade mineral oil, or it may be you have burned too much carbon out of your billet. (Make sure you are far enough through the oxide layer to know for sure you are testing "clean" steel with the file.) Nick said it best about eliminating variables. By eliminating the variable that your oil may be the problem, you thus can do better troubleshooting. One thing I would suggest is to take a small tab of your damascus, heat it to critical, and swish it around in warm water. If that's still softer than expected, you have a problem with the steel or temps. If it's hard, then you have a quenching problem. If it blows apart, smile, grab a shard and put the file to it. (You can also go back and test your starting steels in your mineral oil and see if they harden using your typical procedure.) It's a good thing to test hardenability on a scrap of every billet before you proceed to make sure something bad hasn't happened.

If your billet and/or starting steel hardens in water, it's time to change something. :)

On to quench oils. I will state this at the onset: Kevin Cashen or mete are the best to discuss this with.Definitely not me. For your mix of steels you want "medium fast to fast" quench speed.

There's a list of quench speeds on this thread but Kevin has pointed out that the speeds may not be accurate because of varying test methods.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=402054
Nonetheless, if you pick from the upper middle to top of the list you should be ok if you're shooting for pure martensite in the edge and minimize fine pearlite. I have Park 50 for my 1084/15N20 damascus. I also don't edge quench.


Some of those are very tough to get in small quantities. You might call your local Heatbath rep (Parks 50)and see what they can do for you.

Brownell ToughQuench will get into a decent speed range if heated warm enough. Expensive. Also, get quench oil too hot and it starts to lose efficacy. I think there are better choices in this instance.

K&G in AZ sells high speed quench nowadays, and may be worth a shot if you want to spend that much for the juice+shipping across country.

Personally, in order to get it in smaller quantities from a decent "local" source, I would get a gallon from Mcmaster Carr of their faster oil and test it for your method.
3202K4
Quenching Oil 11-Second Quench Time, 1-Gallon Container
In stock at $13.63 Each

That's my recommendation. Don't trust my recommendation any more than I trust others. :D I make mistakes, too.
 
I should have known, seeing all the oddball stuff I've orderd from McMaster-Carr over the years, that they'd carry quenching oils as well. Any idea who the manufacturer is for their product? I'm interested in the 11 second quench as well.
 
Guy, the MSDS lists it as "Quenchfast" distributed through Motor Oil, Inc in Elk Grove Village IL. A call to them before purchasing may produce a data sheet to aid decision making. I'm not real big on "house brands" but the manufacturers' minimums prevent a lot of direct purchase unless you buy a drum. What worries me is if they change manufacturers ands keep the same name. Still, I think it's at least formulated for quenching, not something else.
 
If you can get it, Heatbath's #50 should work well. Their website says;
#50 QUENCH OIL Low viscosity quench oil that approaches water in quench speed, yet gives a more uniform, less severe quench than water. Recommended for open quench system operating below 120 deg F.​
It works great on 1095 and 1084. As I recall from one of Kevin's lectures, 15N20 is very similar to 1084 and heat treats just about the same, so I would think that #50 would work for it as well.

I bought my oil from Heatbath's facility in Indian Orchard, MA. I had no problems getting my stuff, but others apparently have not been so fortunate. Their MA. address is:
Heatbath Corporation
P.O. Box 51048
Indian Orchard, MA 01151-5048

Phone 413-452-2000
Fax 413-543-2378
​
 
This is COOOL, Chris! I knew sometime, somewhere, I had read of someone in the NE getting some Parks 50 w/o a hassle or a 55gal minimum and have never been able to find that post!

How very fortunate that the person who had done that was active in this thread. Thanks, Chris, for sharing that again!
 
Mike,

I can't seem to find the name of the woman that I dealt with at Heatbath (in 2002), but she was very nice and didn't ask any questions. However, I gave her name to someone else not too long ago and she shot them down. I don't know what they told her, so I don't know what the problem was. When spoke with her I said I was calling from "Shenipsit Forge" and sent them a purchase order from my "company". I bought 10 gallons of AAA and 10 gallons of #50. I just found my purchase order and the AAA was $5.09 per gallon and the #50 was $5.40 per gallon.

Tom Walen is the guy in charge of their sales division. He's the one I sent the pseudo purchase order to. I would imagine that if you lead him to believe you own a real business he will sell you some oil. I have heard that their minimum order is $100, but that's not hard to reach.
 
fitzo said:
Deker, you have nothing to apologize for. I hope you didn't take offense at the way I approached this. I wanted a non-confrontational way of trying to tell you, though, that you have no real way of knowing whether your mineral oil is good stuff for quenching just because something with that generic name worked for someone else. Sincerely, I knew you would see this and was only trying to help in my own awkward way. I hope you got it that the only thing I was trying to say is that not all mineral oil is created the same. I am not looking to pick a fight with anyone, or cast aspersions.
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No offense taken at all Fitzo! I'm here to learn and a fellow geek to boot, so I appreciate the extra time you've taken to clear some of this up for us all. I should choose my smilies more appropriately :)

fitzo said:
If your billet and/or starting steel hardens in water, it's time to change something. :)
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Point taken. I have some scraps that have been hanging out in a pile, I'll put some of them to use.

fitzo said:
<snip lots more useful info>

That's my recommendation. Don't trust my recommendation any more than I trust others. :D I make mistakes, too.
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I'll see if there's a local heatbath reseller and see what they can do. Barring that, I've been getting some wood together to send to K&G for stabilization. Maybe I'll add some oil to the order while I'm at it.

Thanks again for taking the time to make complicated things make sense Fitzo. It's greatly appreciated.

-d

P.S. In general, don't worry about offending me. Many have tried, but none have succeeded. :)
 
In response to a post above, as long as chemistry has come up, Carbon is a very small weight percent of steel, but the real percent from a chemical standpoint is what is called Mole percent, which is where the amounts are normalized to account for the differing weights of the elements. An Iron atom weighs about 4 1/2 times as much as a carbon atom, but their reaction is related on a basis of electron charges-Fe++ or Fe+++ and Carbon with up to a -4 charge. As a mole percent, a eutectoid steel would actually be about 4% rather than 0.84%.
 
The good news to me was that I didn't have to read it twice to try and remember. :D

I read most of these highbrow equations that describe competition for carbon based on relative alloy concentrations and realize the math has been gone for 25 years. Funny how some knowledge just disappears from our grasp. :o
 
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