Mineral oil Quenchant

[son_of_bluegrass]

Mike,

I can't seem to find the name of the woman that I dealt with at Heatbath (in 2002), but she was very nice and didn't ask any questions. However, I gave her name to someone else not too long ago and she shot them down. I don't know what they told her, so I don't know what the problem was. When spoke with her I said I was calling from "Shenipsit Forge" and sent them a purchase order from my "company". I bought 10 gallons of AAA and 10 gallons of #50. I just found my purchase order and the AAA was $5.09 per gallon and the #50 was $5.40 per gallon.

Tom Walen is the guy in charge of their sales division. He's the one I sent the pseudo purchase order to. I would imagine that if you lead him to believe you own a real business he will sell you some oil. I have heard that their minimum order is $100, but that's not hard to reach.

I probably haven't earned the right to post but anyway....

This hits on my problem with these quenchants. The cost. As principally a hobbist who is fighting my last boss for pay and trying to get a buisness off the ground, I just can't afford to spend that kind of money. Maybe one day. But for now I know my veggie oil works (it's a conglomeration of what I could lay my hands on). And since it works is there really any compelling reason to change?

Another question - since the base for these quenchants seems to be mineral oil with just a small amount of additives, what justifies the much higher cost over mineral oil? It seems to me that is just going to line someone's pockets and I hate getting fleeced.

Just for the record: yes I would like to try the commercial oils and compare those to what I use and if I ever decide to try it I may change my tune. I try to be open minded.

ron

 

[deker]

Another question - since the base for these quenchants seems to be mineral oil with just a small amount of additives, what justifies the much higher cost over mineral oil? It seems to me that is just going to line someone's pockets and I hate getting fleeced.

Speaking as someone who works in what some would call a "highly skilled field", I feel compelled to add my $.02 to this one. Chemistry is hard and people who truly understand it are few and far between. They also have spent a lot of time and money to gain their knowledge and position and they deserve adequite compensation for it. Companies that produce high-tech chemical products dump a lot of money into salaries for the "big brains", not to mention the expensive high-tech facilities and equipment for them to work in. Given that high cost of doing business, they have to charge what they have to charge to maintain their business. Sure, it may be "mineral oil with a few extras", but how many thousands of tests had to be done on how many hundreds of formulas in order to get to the one that works well? How many man hours did it take? How many compounds did they have to buy to find the ones that work well? How many millions did they spend on the testing equipment?

I suppose what I'm trying to say in short is that cost of an item isn't always necessarily just the cost of its components. If that was the case, all computer software should be free because 0s and 1s don't cost anything. (Had to throw that last one in since I'm a computer geek for a living )

Apologies for being a bit off topic on this one, and I certainly intend no offense to anybody.

-d

 

[Allan Molstad]

what justifies the much higher cost over mineral oil?

I think it just all comes down to the question of what does a guy hope to get out of this stuff?

Some steels do fine with many types of different oils used to quench in.
Some steels, it's not so easy to slide by with just any old oil.

The good part in this is that you dont have to run out and get new oil for every knife you try to heat-treat.
The fact is that once you get the correct oil to go with the steel you use , then thats about it.
With luck you will not have to order any more oil for a long time.

(it's a conglomeration

The advice I received from Ed Fowler was to get a good oil that works with the steel I use so that the results mean something and I can judge things.
In the beginning I was attempting to use all kinds of different oils and oil/water mixes to experiment on my blades.
The problem was that I was not learning anything from such tests.
If a blade cracked, or if it didnt get hard how was I to know what went wrong if I kept changing types of steel, the oil and the temp of my quench oil with evey new blade?

Keeping things the same as far as the right oil matched to the right steel is very important to learning if you are messing up on some other step along the way.

Yes, I spent well over $25 bucks a Gal for two Gal + shipping...But I got the best quench oil for my steel, and I can trust the results that I get out of it are not subject to the oil being "wrong".

Yes, some oils are hard to get, and the truth is that for many steels, good old mineral oil works, (more or less) close enough .

is there really any compelling reason to change?

I would never want to tell a new knifemaker like myself that he "had" to only use one type of quench oil on his first blades. To do that would be silly as it would only cause him to not get started on that first blade at all.
And Im glad that most all the advice I received from the expert Knifemakers here on this forum about what type of oil to use was never the; "Use brand "X" Quench oil or don't even try." type advice.
But as you learn about steels, and Heat-treating, and as you invest so much of your time in grinding out a blade, it starts to just seem the smart thing to do to make sure your Quench oil correct and is able to help bring out the best in all the work you put into a blade.

 

[fitzo]

Ron, your comments are as worthwhile as any others here from where I stand.

I just hit a couple sites looking at mineral oil prices. Vet and food grade oils run about $10-12 a gallon, so the commercial quench oils are some about the same, some higher but not outrageously so. Of course, as always, there's a couple places a tad like pirates that won't even blow you a kiss when they take yer money. Welcome to free enterprise, eh? LOL I'm sure that one can find lower prices for other versions of mineral oil if you look around. I didn't look at industrial material.

I know that there are people using all sorts of things to quench in and getting quite decent knives out of that. That is their decision and I respect that. The only persons they really have to satisfy is themselves and their customers, when it comes down to it. The purpose of this thread was to try and prevent any misimpressions about all mineral oil being the same, because it's surely not. Additives can make a big difference, too, as far as I'm concerned. Others obviously don't agree, so we just have to agree to disagree and go our own ways.

Some people are happy with stuff they put together, others need to have a name for it so they can ask for a data sheet. I just happen to fall in that latter group. It's just like some people are happier using found steel and others like me would hope for an actual lot analysis. I like to eliminate variability and unknowns wherever possible.

Different strokes for different folks.

 

[fitzo]

....Chemistry is hard and people who truly understand it are few and far between. They also have spent a lot of time and money to gain their knowledge and position and they deserve adequite compensation for it. Companies that produce high-tech chemical products dump a lot of money into salaries for the "big brains", not to mention the expensive high-tech facilities and equipment for them to work in. Given that high cost of doing business, they have to charge what they have to charge to maintain their business. Sure, it may be "mineral oil with a few extras", but how many thousands of tests had to be done on how many hundreds of formulas in order to get to the one that works well? How many man hours did it take? How many compounds did they have to buy to find the ones that work well? How many millions did they spend on the testing equipment?

-d

deker, I wish I had a nickel for every "accuser" I have tried to explain some of those very same things to when they decide all pharmaceuticals should be cheap and I'm "part of the problem".

 

[fitzo]

Good thread. Lots of good input.

 

[Will52100]

Thanks Fitz, wish I'd read this a couple years ago. A lot of oils work and will work well, but you need to match the oil to the steel and just as importantly the oil temp. I played with a lot of differant oils including the "goop" quench. I found out early that a bit of bacon grease and parifin wax made a very fast quench, so fast regular high carbon blades were warping. I used vet grade mineral oil with good results for a little while, but then I tried texico type A and noticed a big differance. The blades I did with other oils worked and worked well, but there was a sutble improvement when I switched to a comercial quench. And a big factor is piece of mind. I personaly think repeatability aside(like was stated, type x qeunchant is pretty much the same anywhere), not haveing to spend a lot of time experimenting to find the rite quench and oil temp are a big time and money saver. Moon dust and mule spit could probably be made to work, but in the end time is money and a cheap oil can get expensive time wise to get it tweeked rite.

 

[Chris Meyer]

deker: Chemistry is hard and people who truly understand it are few and far between.

Good point, and for those of you who may not have checked out his bio, fitzo is a retired chemist, so he knows what he's talking about.

 

[Darren Ellis]

Good post Fitzo. I bought 25 gallons of Parks 50 and Parks AAA quenchants several years ago and haven't looked back.

If you're selling knives, you want the best you can do, and one way to get there is to eliminate all extraneous variables. A good quench oil takes care of that one. ...just one less thing to think about...



-Darren

 

[Matthew Gregory]

GREAT THREAD!!!!

Mr. Fitzgerald, I envy you for the ease and efficiency you show in tackling possibly incendiary topics with grace! I suspect it's far more advantageous compared to my bulldog deathgrip methods...


Darren, is there any reason you haven't considered selling quenching oils? It seems your business is perfectly suited for resale of such items... you already know I'd order it from you!

 

[Darren Ellis]

GREAT THREAD!!!!
Darren, is there any reason you haven't considered selling quenching oils? It seems your business is perfectly suited for resale of such items... you already know I'd order it from you!

I've looked into this in the past, and the problem is that Heatbath doesn't sell wholesale. So basically, I'd be buying retail, paying the shipping to our shop, purchasing containers to repackage it in, putting the time into repackaging, and marking it up to cover those costs. That's always bothered me a little, as I'd have to sell it for $15+ or more a gallon to cover costs and make a little profit to cover my time. Now, I don't mind doing that, but don't want to sink any time/money into getting a bunch in if people aren't interested in buying it.

So I guess I should ask, and please as many people answer as possible, would you be interested in small quantities of heat treat oil selling for $15+ per gallon when you know that HeatBath sells it for $6 + shipping, though they won't sell to individuals. If there are enough positive responses, I'll follow through with it. ...it's just a lot of money to have 1000 gallons of quenchant sitting around collecting dust!



-Darren

 

[Allan Molstad]

though they won't sell to individuals.

This is why I dont like to read where the expert knife makers talk down the guys who Heat-treat with Vet-grade Mineral oils or cooking oils.

The fact is that getting the correct information about what the different grades of steel need as a quench oil is hard to come by.
And the other fact is that even if you get a name of a good quench oil for your steel, just finding a supply house that will sell to you is also tricky at times.

Thats why I believe that for many steels and for many new guys, vet-grade mineral oil works well enough not to mess with their heads about.

What I would like to see is a Blade Forum Myth Buster take on the question of the use of vet-grade mineral oil as compared to a real quench oil like I use.

The idea told to us all the time on this forum is that real pro. quench oil is better than mineral oil, even if that real quench oil is mostly just mineral oil anyway.
I would like to see that idea put to the test on the more common knife blade steels....I may even have to do a little testing on that question myself.

I mean, is the difference between knife quench oils really that important?
What would you need to be able to notice any difference?
What tests could you use to record a difference between the same 5160 blade quenched in olive oil, and that same blade quenched in a fine grade quench oil?

 

[Matthew Gregory]

Alan, your post has been answered a thousand times by people with the same experiences you've had, INCLUDING by the 'Blade Forums Myth Busters'. YOU have decided that these experts have been talking down to you, as I haven't seen anyone else post that they feel they've been lead to believe that they're inadequate.

Why is it that when someone on this forum tells you to use the proper materials for the job they're talking down to you, yet if Ed Fowler tells you it's somehow different?

Almost every thread that you and I have been active in during the last few weeks has covered nothing but the how's and why's of this topic, including answering every question you've posed in your last post!

 

[Tommegow]

OK a newb's .02 concerning this thread (Great info BTW)
What I would like to see and have never seen is a steel/oil chart.
kinda like this

O-1 good- Veg. Oil
better- Auto Trans Fluid
best- Parks AA
5160 good- &&&&
better- %%%%
best- *****

This just may be too contraversial to actual be able to be put togther
but it would help both the cash-strapped,the newb and the makers trying to up-grade his or her process.
I'll duck down y'all fire away

 

[Darren Ellis]

O-1 good- Veg. Oil

I think that the first line above illustrates the crux of this thread. Inconsistencies in batches can result in variations in results. The certified quenchants will perform to spec every time.

Guys, I have no dog in this fight, so don't want to get into it with anyone, so I'll just leave with this. Industry and Science have already figured all of this stuff out, we're not pushing the envelope in any of this stuff and if someone thinks they are they're fooling themselves. You can take the high tech mode of knifemaking or the low tech mode, but imho, the best way is the way you enjoy working.



-Darren

 

[Allan Molstad]

What I would like to see and have never seen is a steel/oil chart.
kinda like this

O-1
good- Veg. Oil
better- Auto Trans Fluid
best- Parks AA

5160
good- &&&&
better- %%%%
best- *****

Yes, they could make that one a "sticky".
Thats a topic thats actually helpfull.
A place where you can look up any steel, and see what the ranking is for the different quench oils people might try to use with each steel.

 

[fitzo]

Well said, Darren. You packed something very important into just a couple sentences. I wish I could do that.

People should do what makes them happy.

I was addressing those who wanted to do things the way I prefer, and did my damnedest to say that. Those who want to do something else, have at it. If you think I was talking down to you, then you have a reading comprehension problem.

I'll not be drawn into a fool's argument with someone who plays both sides simply trying to stir up the sh*t for their own malevolent glee.

Later.

 

[Tommegow]

OK guys I honestly was not trying to stir up any feces. I just thought
the list if it was possible, might be helpful. I am in the very early learning stage.:foot: A few more years and I'll reduce my ignorance and start fewer brush fires

My Apologies

 

[fitzo]

You have nothing to apologize for, Tom. You said nothing wrong. It's a topic worth discussing, just one I am not competent to address. Perhaps others can.

I'm sorry if you thought I was talking at you. I assure you I wasn't.

 

[Don Hanson III]

Great thread fitzo, thanks for keeping me here instead of in the shop where I need to be I learned many years ago the benifits of real quench oil. After many years of good results with olive oil a guy had to give me a 5 gal bucket of quench oil to try. I was too cheap or more likely too lazy to track some down. It made a big different especially in the shallow hardening steel like 1095,W1,W2. I read on another forum of a guy having trouble getting 1084 hard in oil so he was going to start using water, I would say, try the right oil because water ain't the answer for 1084.