Minimalist camping without a fixed blade

craytab said:
And you can't see how you have related the arguments in the past? I'm not going to go look because I don't care that much but it goes something like this "I don't destroy the forest like you so I don't need a fixed blade in the woods".
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Craytab, you correctly understand central critique that LNT makes against harvest based camping styles. In many environments, it's not sustainable, even when done in a distributed manner. That's the reason the USFS and many other public land managers advocate LNT practices and in some places ban harvesting and fires outright.

And yes, if you used alpinist style LNT tools and techniques, you no longer need a fixed blade.

https://flic.kr/p/NEaDdV

What is possibly insulting or upsetting about this? Are you simply seeking drama for the sake of drama?
 
Location, location, location, is really the missing factor in this conversation. There's no doubt that places like the UK, or California, or popular spots in Utah have a draw that means the number of visits if folks were left to do as they pleased would wind up with the local area ruined in just one season.

It's also just as valid that there are places in Alaska or B.C. or other international locations where you can get off the grid quickly and in a very brief moment nature will cover your tracks as if you'd never been.

The real tyranny here is the desire to stamp your local best practices on every other person in the world. Either by our LNT cheerleaders or by the I go where I please, burn what I like and shit in all your creeks crowd.
 
Location and use is a very important factor as to whether the land can "heal" as Pinnah mentioned. I visit the Smoky Mt NP a lot and I can say that a lot of the trails get serious use and there is erosion. That was always the reason to limit access to public lands from motored dirt bikes, ATV's, and even off road bicycles. Horses create another problem potentially on public lands. Most people aren't too concerned about the Amish use of horse and buggy on paved public roads, but with frequent use, they wear grooves into the pavement.

The old adage of dropping one cigarette butt is not a big deal, but if a thousand or tens of thousands did the same thing in the same space, you'd have a mess. Rules on public land use have changed as the population and use increased.
 
Hi. Interesting read :thumbup:. From my non-English mother tongue perspective, I think it really depends on what everyone defines as “camping”. I have done some “camping” (and still do) and believe this discussion about being with/without a fixed blade is very much related to this. For example, during my military service I have “camped” quite much :D, also in rather extreme conditions (e.g. overnights in snow shelters around 2500-3000 mt on the Alps) and I never had the need for anything more than a SAK or an Opinel to cut some food. Why? Because we (as a Company and as individuals) were carrying all the goods, commodities and even some supplements we needed, from camp stoves to snow shovels, from metal pegs for tents or tarps to hammers and other specific tools :). On the contrary, when camping with the Scouts, in my childhood and teenage, a fixed blade was a must since we had to build everything we needed from scratches. This is how I would guide my choice: DIY? Fixed blade. Carry everything you need from home? I just take one folder I like :).

About the leave no traces philosophy, I love and respect “my” Land, so I try to preserve her beauty and might. But I also think there’s a lot of agenda/propaganda from the usual well-knowns in this. I’ve roamed the Alps / quite much and since my childhood / and I can tell, from first-hand experience, how fast Nature takes lands “back”, as soon as humans “retreat”. Entire villages, inhabited only 50-70 years ago are today ghost towns, crumbling down and the woods/forests are almost hiding them already :(. Roads have disappeared, once left without maintenance. From a more scientific point of view, satellite pics of EU show how, in the last 50 years, forest covered areas have increased by 35 % on average. All makes sense, People are more and more living in big cities and leave the country-side, which soon returns “wild” :). But these things don’t hit the headlines very often and one has to dig and search for these infos. Quite different for the “Al Gore Gospel” type of news which are instead broadcasted in almost all the World language and normally always hit the headlines. As a side funny note, thinking back, I realize probably we left less “traces” as a military company than as Scout troops :D.

About Ötzti, I have maybe said already somewhere here, but it’s almost a thriller story or a plot for Cold Cases series! It looks now that the copper his axe was made of, might have origins in Tuscany Region and this would testify for a long distance trading/bartering existing already in those days. According to the Munich (DE) Commissioner of the Criminal Police, Alexander Horn, very likely, he was ambushed, when the arrow, which killed him later on, hit him in the shoulder. It has been speculated Ötzti might have been involved in some kind of fight, just a few days before being killed. This is told by what it looks like a defensive wound found on his right hand. Not showing any other wounds, likely he was the “winner” of this grappling fight. Ötzti also didn’t look as someone in fear for his life; this is told by the fact he had a long break in an open spot (where his body was found). It looks he set a camp and had a good meal (not a snack on the run), judging by what has been found in his stomach and around him at the finding site. So it looks his killing was a kind of “revenge”, when excluding robbery as a possible motive, since all his belongings were found on him or close by, on the site. Yes, he was walking, not on the run and it doesn’t look like he was trying to escape from someone chasing him. As far as his health, they found he was suffering from arteriosclerosis. As a curiosity, it was a patchwork of five different animals skins - calf, goat, sheep, bear and deer - to compose Ötzti’s clothing. This suggest that hunting was a complementary activity to breeding and farming.

Ciao!
 
I respect those that have thru hiked the big trails that keep getting mentioned, and think at some point in my life, it would be fun to do at least a good portion of a few of them.

However, I do feel that there is large difference between thru hiking a trail like that, and "camping", particularly away from established campsites. Those big (at least well known) trails are comparative highways in terms of traffic on them, which I do think really changes how you prepare for the trip. If you get injured or something similar, you can pretty much count on seeing someone come through in the next day or so (during the seasons of use anyway). If you're further off trail, or off of a "condensed impact" area (just using that term to mean that you're away from people most likely), the likelihood of that is much lower.

As a personal preference, I like distributed camping better than condensed impact camping. I understand why in some areas that might not be the best choice (particularly these well traveled trails mentioned before, the PCT, CDT, AT, etc). Maybe I'm the only one, but seeing shelters/platforms built in these areas has a bigger "impact" to me than say... a fire ring. I know its to prevent other impact from repeated abuses of the "distributed" approach, but it doesn't feel all that natural to me. If I saw places being destroyed by overuse, I'm sure I'd change my tune. Its just that where I like to camp, this hasn't been a rampant problem (I do wish people were better with packing out their trash though), so seeing things like that out there are still strange to me, and take away from the "i'm getting away from it all" feel that I like about camping.

And again, I might be alone in this. While I'm generally in the fixed blade camp (especially ones that don't have a large weight penalty), I'm also apparently an "ultralight" backpacker (according to REI apparently). If I'm bringing a fixed blade on a HIKE, its not because I'm PLANNING on building a shelter, its so I CAN build a shelter (easier than without one anyway). I trust my gear just as much as the next hiker (maybe more, because I made a lot of it myself), and rely on it as well. But since I almost exclusively hike in the treeline, a good knife is a good "rustic" backup for many pieces of my kit.

Oh, and as a hammock camper, I just have to say that if you see people out there tying hammocks directly to trees with rope, they're "doing it wrong". I'm sure most know, but just in case, you should ideally be using tree straps at least 1in wide (thats the most common law) to spread the load on the surface of the tree and prevent damage to it.
 
GREENJACKET said:
Leghog,
Went through your list.
Anyone who loves the outdoors knows that a good knife is handy. There seems to me a new industry has grown up to provide those essential items that no self respecting person should venture outside without.

They are now marketed as Bushcraft or Survival, and people now make a living from teaching these skills. I don't have a problem with that and for many students they learn stuff that is useful and interesting. Some of these skills may well get them out of a mess, every bit as good as a First Aid course.

However, where ever I've been in the world the locals have never needed any of the "essential items" or Bushcraft and Survival skills to live. Because they already have them living and working in those environments. Most people I've come across in remote areas certainly could never afford the $180 knife, nor other high cost gear. Somehow they manage, flourish even, without them.

In our high living standard, metropolitan world, then the outdoors has been packaged up into manageable labeled classes, each with their own rules. Bushcraft rules and badges of honour. Survival and its survival tin and tools. Orienteering, Mountaineering, Trekking, you name it there are books and kit list to match them all. This thread's "minimalist" is a label as well.
My old Forester did fine and never needed any of it labelled up, he just worked the land. As do most farmers and those who live in rural, wilderness even, environment. Generally they make themselves as comfortable as possible.

My gripe with all this is that there is far too much marketing going on. Some of the knives offered are more marketing than any great revelation; a Mora would be fine. A ferros rod, nice to have but really a Bic or some matches is what "normal" people use. No self respecting forester would go without a saw and axe, so we take a knife... why? To me its all getting a bit out of hand and almost some business. Certainly a whole lot of lecturing going on. A whole lot of must do's, must have.
My pet hate is the abuse of the use of Survival. Survival is dealing with any adverse situation and getting through it successfully. Its not buy a list of "essentials" for the outdoors.

I think my gripe is metropolitans trying to tell country folk how to do things. Packaging it up and selling it to the point of fantasy. Most country folk I know carry a small knife, penknife, lock knife, and some a sheath knife. If they need more they will get it out of the shed/barn.
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Greenjacket,

I suspect that we probably agree on more of this than seems obvious at first glance. I'm a cattle rancher (third generation on my ranch) and my nearest neighbor is over 3 miles away, so I'd likely fall into the category of country folk. As you said, I carry reasonably modest knives and go to the shed and get the appropriate tool for the job when what I carry with me isn't going to be adequate. Axe, saw, wedge and sledge, chainsaw, and/or polesaw for trees and wood, spade, shovel and/or pickaxe variant (perhaps a payloader or the neighbor's ditch witch or tracked excavator on a big job) for digging, you get the picture. This all assumes that I'm near enough to the shed to have access to those tools. Going hunting, hiking or camping far from these tools and civilization is a different matter to me entirely.

The fixed blade will never be as good at chopping, splitting, digging or anything else as a specialized tool for the job at hand. What it is to me is an excellent and sturdy tool of improvisation at a modest weight penalty. A tool for doing things you hadn't planned on needing to do, but the circumstances have changed since you made your plans. If you'd planned on cutting wood, you'd have brought an axe or saw; digging, a shovel. Speaking only for myself, I believe that thinking you can plan for any eventuality away from civilization is at best naive and at worst potentially disastrous. A tool of improvisation is worth its ounces in my opinion.

Others feel differently, and they're free to do so. I really don't think many minds will be changed among the posters. To me, this isn't the point. It's the non-posting reader that is my concern. There will be many different levels of knowledge among them. Some with enough to make informed decisions on the subject without reading our words here, but others without that level of knowledge but seeking information. Personally, I don't think it's at all wise to be utterly dismissive of a tool with so much potential to get you out of a jam, so make those feelings known for those readers.
 
pinnah said:
Could you explain what anything the LNT crowd has said that makes you feel bad.

The only thing we've said is that fixed blades aren't needed for safe backcountry travel. For the life of me, I don't see how that could you or Quiet or Carl or anybody feel bad.

Seems to me that if there is any intolerance being expressed, it is by the pro-fixed blade crowd, some of whom (not you) insist that a fixed blade is required.

I'll concede that machetes (a fixed blade knife?) make some forms of camping easier. They certainly make travel through some terrain easier or even feasible in the case jungle like conditions.

But really, LNT techniques are utterly proven. Saying that doesn't force people to use them (although local regs might).

Its been a curious thread. There's something very deeply held by some fixed blade advocates that make hearing that their preferred camping tools and techniques aren't universally needed.

But, I suppose that if the pro-fix crowd had all taken your posture of "Fine, they aren't needed but they're fun and I like them so I carry them" approach then the thread would've ended in raging agreement on the 5th page.
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Saying a fixed-blade is NOT necessary is spreading the truth (although not the "truth" of many reputable outdoor "experts" about "essentials") but saying a fixed-blade is necessary is being intolerant? Interesting opinion.
 
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Logan, I prefer unofficial campsites to official ones when st lower elevations. But I will almost always choose an abviously impacted site over a virgin on. The reality here (and where I hiked in Cali) is that if I carve out a new site, it will certainly get used and so all I've done is to create a second common use sight, where there earlier only one.

I have zero problem with people camping in wild campsites, harvesting wood and making fires so long as it's legal and they don't make a mess of things.
 
Distributed vs condensed.

Have seen a cool approach in Sweden.
There was a group of islands in a lake. Complete with rare birds and what not.
The island which was chosen to be open for camping rotated every year. This way the impact was condensed to one island at a time but spread out over all island over the years and gave each island a lot of time to recover.
 
leghog said:
How about lists from those who have actually thru hikes the Appalachian Trail, Pacific Crest Trail, Pacific Northwest Trail, the Ouachita Trail, etc. With a focus on living in the backcountry vs preparing for a survival event.

Unless you ALWAYS carry a bushwhacking fixed blade, you will likely not have one on you in the unlikely event you find yourself in a survival situation.
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Bro, decent point about "camping" vs "survival," but I hope to survive camping and have found that "survival" often comes on without intent, sometimes when "only" camping.

The most likely place for me to face a survival situation "camping" is in the wilderness. When younger and living in SoCal, I went there, including the Sierra Nevada, Rockies, PCT and Sonora Desert, with the gear I thought wise, usually including a 4" fixed-blade, utility pocket knife, and small saw (Boy, have saw choices improved!). Other gear for other places. And I was, of course, responding to the post that no "widely accepted" authorities advocated fixed-blade knives. If you don't accept the authorities who do suggest a fixed-blade knife, that's your judgment.
 
.Hexenjager Very good post.

I do carry at least one good knife on me everyday, sometimes two. Depends what I am doing. I do think if you carry a knife regularly then you pick up the skills that can sort out all sorts of little problems. Doesn't necessarily have to be a big knife. The further I go from my toolbox the more knife I might carry. The pocket saws are good to to compliment a knife, but only if you think its likely to be used.
Those that don't or have never carried one just don't ever find out how useful they are.

Quite often its Leatherman because of wire fences with the way the can hang up deer and dogs who have tried to jump over them; top wire under lower wire. Sheep can get stuck in anything.

My gripe is the proliferation of some pretty dodgy designs, and the over hype that they are "a must have". Some of the exaggeration is excessive. Many aren't very efficient, some really not up to the task as the designs are fundamentally flawed, and some not very well constructed even though the finish has all the look. Just not impressed with a whole lot that are so much in fashion if you believed in all the y tube cult followers. Too many seem to me form over function, and trying far too hard.

Another gripe is the: "have kit so can travel". Its experience that actually keeps you safe. Anyhow, when I'm a tourist I ask the locals, and nearly without fail they are helpful and look out for you. The trick is to listen.

Maybe I'm a bit old fashioned, but I do find the simpler designs tend to work best.
 
Jens Schuetz said:
Did they say it was fixed?
All I read was "$8 flea market knife"
Let's hope it wasn't a folder or who knows a hollow handle survival rambo knife copy with a 1/2 inch screw tang. ;-)
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No, it was fixed. It's on the cover of the mag. I read it first as a hard copy, and remembered it as I was reading through this thread. It is a saw-back, Kabar-ish looking knife that may in fact have a hollow handle. Something I would have no confidence in... and yet! The guy lived and the bear died!
 
pinnah said:
Craytab, you correctly understand central critique that LNT makes against harvest based camping styles. In many environments, it's not sustainable, even when done in a distributed manner. That's the reason the USFS and many other public land managers advocate LNT practices and in some places ban harvesting and fires outright.

And yes, if you used alpinist style LNT tools and techniques, you no longer need a fixed blade.

https://flic.kr/p/NEaDdV

What is possibly insulting or upsetting about this? Are you simply seeking drama for the sake of drama?
Click to expand...

It's fine with me if you don't read what I write but in the least if you do respond at least address what I have said.
 
Aias said:
No, it was fixed. It's on the cover of the mag. I read it first as a hard copy, and remembered it as I was reading through this thread. It is a saw-back, Kabar-ish looking knife that may in fact have a hollow handle. Something I would have no confidence in... and yet! The guy lived and the bear died!
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Thank you Aias.
I'm off to the next gas station. :-)
 
Greenjacket,

Kinda sounds to me like we're in complete agreement on the main principle and that our differences lie mostly in having different circumstances and life experience that shape our choices.

I'm the entirety of the work force on my ranch, with the exception of getting neighbors to help a few times a year for the biggest jobs and helping them in turn. Because of this, I tend to have the view that problems I'm not prepared to solve on my own, probably won't get solved at all.

I agree with you on some of the designs around. There's a lot of gimmicky "features" out there. Admittedly, I own some examples of this myself, but that's more about being a bit of a collector. The blades that actually get carried when I'm on foot with a purpose, as opposed to going to a site to mess with my knives, tend to be drop or clip points of pretty boring appearance. My friends are sometimes shocked by how much I paid for "such a plain knife". As opposed to visible "features", I paid for things less able to be seen. Stellar reputation for using excellent and appropriate steel for a given type of blade with an outstanding heat treatment (so it doesn't need to be thick and heavy to be strong but will still hold an excellent edge) and/or warranties without all the fine print. Any tool can break, but experience turning wrenches over the years has taught me that, the shorter the warranty text on a tool brand, the less likely you are to need that warranty in the first place. I'm willing to pay a premium for these non-visible features if it's to be my "uh oh" wilderness tool.
 
We allow and at times invite some people to "camp" on our property. We are blessed to have about 1/12 miles of creek frontage, and bluffs to hike. Oak and cedar forest.

We have always been careful and sensitive to using the property in a way that dos not "scar" the land. But the boys growing up sometimes did not think, and with their hatchets, and eventually with their "big choppers" got carried away. And then I would walk through an area and see trees with notches, stumps of various heights, and other ugly reminders of someone's "fun" that would be in evidence for years to come. So over time, I was able to teach our family about good stewardship and how to be selective and thoughtful about where the firewood comes from, and where to "set up camp".

I love "big choppers" and have many, and make them also. the children each have one or more. But none of the people we have had stay here, seem to have this understanding or training. The fathers are like, "the boys want to chop and hack, let them go"! And "there are lot's of trees, how many can they hurt"? And that drives me crazy. And if I give them some direction about what is acceptable and what is not, I often get the "dude, lighten up" looks.

I never have heard of any campground or public ground that allows that type of behavior, and it would seem that parents would desire to teach their offs[ring about these things, but sadly that has not been my experience.

I respect those that desire to "leave no trace" and also guys like me that bring along a larger knife for fun and use, and also try to leave almost no trace. I see no need to lecture each other and try to posture a certain position...
 
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