Minimalist camping without a fixed blade

I could probably make do with my Enzo Birk if I carry a hatchet, but going light for me is a small fixed blade & folding saw.

But as a knife-nut I usually carry more steel than I really need, I just can't bring myself to leave my fav toys at home
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I usually opt to swap the full-size MT for a Squirt so I can carry an extra knife instead.
 
This is a thread that specifically asks about "Minimalist camping without a fixed blade".

A general forum includes ultra light multi tools and small folder, not just large fixed blades that suit your particular fancy.

If you or anybody else want to keep hijacking threads like this to discuss only knives they want to talk about, perhaps we should consult the mods.

Nobody, including me, is arguing against large fixed blades or fixed blades in general. I carry them in the backcountry when the mood suits me or when they are useful for a particular goal. I've said this repeatedly.

All I've said really is that fixed blades are optional. They are not needed. This is a General knife reality forum, not a knife fantasy echo chamber forum. To insist they are needed in the backcountry is fantasy. It's a choice. This doesn't denigrate the choice in any way. If you or anybody else gets happy by carrying one, go for it. I do sometimes too. But I don't need to self-justify a luxury choice as a need and I'm sure as shooting not going to tell the OP that they need one because that's simply not true.

The OP asked about "Minimalist camping without a fixed blade". If you feel the thread doesn't belong in the General forum, report it to the mods and ask them to move it the Outdoors forum. Otherwise, let the thread carry on without trying to hijack it.

Please stop posting your opinions as factual assertions. They aren't.
 
I've said no such thing. Please stop putting words in my mouth so you can argue against them. You're doing it intentionally (assuming you have basic reading comprehension skills).

I carry a fixed blade in the woods sometimes. Got it? I'm not against fixed blades in the woods. Got it?

If you want to disagree with me, let me make the statements very clear so you can disagree with me honestly based on what I've actually said.

Fixed blades are necessary for safe backcountry travel.

Harvesting wood and burning fires in places where it is illegal or unsustainable damages the backcountry for others.

If you want points to disagree with, you are free to voice your disagreement with those statements.



Nobody is arguing that point.

But, people who insist that fixed blades are required for safe backcountry travel are mistaken and display a lack of knowledge. Really, this is pretty basic knowledge.



Again, please stop putting words into my mouth. I've said repeatedly that people should carry what makes them happy. Yes, I've said what works for me. But nowhere have I ever said people should carry what I do. Not once. You can't find it because I've not written it. I assume you understand this, so why do you keep putting words in my mouth?

Once again, your opinion. Please stop acting like you speak for everyone, speak for yourself. Thanks.
 
"This is a General knife reality forum, not a knife fantasy echo chamber forum. To insist they are needed in the backcountry is fantasy." Any one of a different opinion is a mindless fantacist merely parroting others around him. Well no...that a little different.

"It's a choice." OK that's a opinion, and one that I happen to agree with....

You know, if you sandwich an insult between two opinions, it doesn't make the insult go away. (Just as carrying a small folder doesn't make one an outdoors expert.)

Fixed blades are not needed in the backcountry and those who insist that they are lack basic knowledge about backcountry skills.

That's not meant to be an insult. But it's straight up reality. Don't like hearing from me? I can point you to countless books on backpacking and mountaineering that make the same point. Or you can consult the packing lists of people who regularly complete the PCT, CDT and AT.

It's dangerous to propagate false information about backcountry travel. In the Whites of NH, we typically see several deaths a year traceable to a lack of knowledge. Knowledge and proper equipment are needed. With proper knowledge and equipment, a fixed blade becomes an optional luxury item (or excess "bad" weight, if you are doing big miles).

I'll ask you the same question that Shinyedges dodged.

Can you think of a single circumstance in camping/backpacking in which is a fixed blade is needed?

As you think about your answer, here is a shot from a typical winter for me. Temperatures hovered between -5f and 0f all day. Very nice green wax skiing.

This shot was taken several miles away from the nearest trail head. A guy I know nearly died within a mile of here while skiing, as he hooked his tip while skiing solo and got a double spiral fracture in his femur. He survived, in no small part, due to his knowledge, skill and equipment (and a great deal of luck).


Lunch spot by Pinnah, on Flickr
 
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Fixed blades are not needed in the backcountry and those who insist that they are lack basic knowledge about backcountry skills.

That's not meant to be an insult. But it's straight up reality. Don't like hearing from me? I can point you to countless books on backpacking and mountaineering that make the same point. Or you can consult the packing lists of people who regularly complete the PCT, CDT and AT.

It's dangerous to propagate false information about backcountry travel. In the Whites of NH, we typically see several deaths a year traceable to a lack of knowledge. Knowledge and proper equipment are needed. With proper knowledge and equipment, a fixed blade becomes an optional luxury item (or excess "bad" weight, if you are doing big miles).

I'll ask you the same question that Shinyedges dodged.

Can you think of a single circumstance in camping/backpacking in which is a fixed blade is needed?

Please stop posting your opinion as fact, thanks. Also, "It's dangerous to propagate false information about backcountry travel!" Could you possibly be any more ignorant or alarmist? Absurd nonsense. You're addressing a board full of people who almost certainly have extensive years of experience in "the backcountry". I have over 30 years in the outdoors myself. Been hiking and camping since I was a child, and I've ALWAYS carried a fixed blade. I wonder if all my fellow Boy Scouts who did Philmont were aware that by carrying a fixed blade, they were close to death, as you suggest. :rolleyes:

You're starting to become a real troll. I can tell you that I would put my own knowledge and skillset up against yours any day, no question.
 
Please stop posting your opinion as fact, thanks. Also, "It's dangerous to propagate false information about backcountry travel!" Could you possibly be any more ignorant or alarmist? Absurd nonsense. You're addressing a board full of people who almost certainly have extensive years of experience in "the backcountry". I have over 30 years in the outdoors myself. Been hiking and camping since I was a child, and I've ALWAYS carried a fixed blade. I wonder if all my fellow Boy Scouts who did Philmont were aware that by carrying a fixed blade, they were close to death, as you suggest. :rolleyes:

You are putting words into my mouth. Nobody is suggesting that carrying a fixed blade puts you "close to death". Sheesh.

Based on your experience, can you suggest a single scenario where a fixed blade is necessary and not optional?
 
Fixed blades are not needed in the backcountry and those who insist that they are lack basic knowledge about backcountry skills.

Well, at least your claims are no longer thinly veiled implications and you are no longer denying that you made them.

Got to give you credit for that, at least.
 
I'm not sure what the OP means by "minimalist" camping.

If that means "ultralight backpacking" where you take "minimal" gear and try to travel long distances at a time, then there are certain types of knives I wouldn't want to lug around (regardless of fitness level). In my case, I wouldn't bring my BK2 on a hike like that (or, any of the comically large/heavy folders out there for that matter). So, basically any super heavy knife I wouldn't want. But I WOULD bring any lightweight/reliable knife I could find. A Mora, SAK (even an opinel :p), would do just fine. In fact, those are what I've carried on my few "lightweight" hikes so far. Wouldn't hesitate to do it again.

If the OP means doing "minimalist" camping, like where I show up with a single knife, a bushpot, and a wool blanket? Then yes, I would bring a fixed blade. For sure. The Bk2 I wouldn't bring hiking might be something I'd want here (if I only had one tool vs one knife maybe). I'd want things that worked well and were strong/reliable, as the tasks are no longer cutting moleskin, opening freeze dried food, etc. You'd be expecting to do more shelter building, firecraft, etc.

The reasons someone may choose a fixed over a folder are many, but also not necessarily super straightforward. For instance, for food prep (not boiling water), I prefer a fixed. They're just easier to clean. They are also simpler, and less prone to failure, which are some of the main reasons that if I was going "survival practicing", I'd have a fixed blade on me. So, I guess when I bring a Mora on a hike instead of a razor blade/sak classic, its my way of "being prepared" in case something doesn't go according to plan. Mostly because "I" have more confidence in my ability to handle the unexpected fall/stay in the woods.
 
"Can you think of a single circumstance in camping/backpacking in which is a fixed blade is needed?"

Some years ago, I and a couple of friends came upon a group of four in the mountains of central California who had created a problem. They had built a fire on the roots of a dead pine and the underground roots had caught on fire. It was a very dry area. (Not everywhere is like the green UK.) They had tried to expose the fire to extinguish it, but the ground was very hard, the only wood was pine and their digging sticks just broke to pieces. None of them had a fixed-blade knife or axe. We each had a fixed-blade knife as that was what we had been taught to carry in USMC Mountain and Desert Survival School. We also had one light hand axe. With these tools, we were able to expose the burning roots and extinguish the fire. Wild fire is a BIG deal in the Sierra Nevada.

When completing the Pacific Crest Trail in Washington, we encountered rain on every day but one in two weeks and that day had heavy, dripping fog You know about fog, I am sure.)d. We were relying on fire to prepare food and try to dry off from the constant rain. Fixed-blade knives allowed us to easily get to the dry interior of wood in order to start fires. Could we have done the same with good folding knives? Probably the answer is "yes," but not remotely as quickly.

"Needed" perhaps has different meanings - to you vs. Lofty, Ray, Mors, Cody, David, Ron, Master Gunny Sergeant Stearns (our survival instructor), and the rest of those who, as you would have it, lack basic knowledge.

I can only hope that when things go bad for you they go bad as per your plans and expectations. That's my opinion after sixty-two years of banging around in the bush when I can in the U.S., Mexico, and Canada.
 
"Can you think of a single circumstance in camping/backpacking in which is a fixed blade is needed?"

Some years ago, I and a couple of friends came upon a group of four in the mountains of central California who had created a problem. They had built a fire on the roots of a dead pine and the underground roots had caught on fire. It was a very dry area. (Not everywhere is like the green UK.) They had tried to expose the fire to extinguish it, but the ground was very hard, the only wood was pine and their digging sticks just broke to pieces. None of them had a fixed-blade knife or axe. We each had a fixed-blade knife as that was what we had been taught to carry in USMC Mountain and Desert Survival School. We also had one light hand axe. With these tools, we were able to expose the burning roots and extinguish the fire. Wild fire is a BIG deal in the Sierra Nevada.

I will admit that impromptu forest fire fighting is not a scenario I had ever considered. I lived on the central coast and did a fair bit of hiking in the tinderbox called the Ventana Wilderness, so I understand the fire concern. A friend of ours from that area is an SAR volunteer in the Ventanas. Another close friend is a USFS volunteer in Stanislaus NF. Neither of them carry fixed blades or any other equipment for fighting fires.

Your story is a great one though in that it points out there are contingencies that one just can't account for. I consider anaphylactic shock to be in that category. I'll carry some antihistamine but won't bother carrying an Epipen. I'll tell people who have severe allergic reactions not to come on trips with me. An Epipen that buys you minutes won't help if evacuation will take hours or days. Your story is great, but it's not one that I've ever seen discussed as a reasonable contingency to plan for.


When completing the Pacific Crest Trail in Washington, we encountered rain on every day but one in two weeks and that day had heavy, dripping fog You know about fog, I am sure.)d. We were relying on fire to prepare food and try to dry off from the constant rain. Fixed-blade knives allowed us to easily get to the dry interior of wood in order to start fires. Could we have done the same with good folding knives? Probably the answer is "yes," but not remotely as quickly.

I've done many multi-day trips in New England's cold, wet shoulder seasons. Days of rain with temps in the 30s and 40s. I consider this be harder than even most winter conditions.

I use the same approach that pretty much everybody I know does in the Whites and that is to use a wet trail clothing/dry camp clothing system. Essentially, this approach just gives up on trying to dry out clothes and relies on the trail clothing being warm when wet and hiking. Just put that cold wet crap back on in the morning and hike till warm.

This approach is definitely shaped/informed by our experience above treeline, particularly in the shoulder seasons and in winter. Fires are just flat out of the question and the lack of fires can be compensated through a combination of clothing, sleep system and shelter choices. I've twice been on skiing treks on which team members have fallen into a river (temps around 0F both times). Again, clothing systems and shelter dealt with the situations just fine.

Note, I don't think you were *wrong* on relying on fire (if the area could sustain it and I'm sure it could). And if you are relying on fire, a fixed blade makes sense. I do the same thing on long XC ski day trips if there is a risk of being benighted. A small wood stove, fixed blade, small saw and tarp is lighter than tarp and sleeping bag. But then, I've done more XC trips with no wood stove so - and this is my point - my choice to carry to a stove and your choice to rely on fires is a choice. Those conditions, as tough as they are, don't demand it.

"Needed" perhaps has different meanings - to you vs. Lofty, Ray, Mors, Cody, David, Ron, Master Gunny Sergeant Stearns (our survival instructor), and the rest of those who, as you would have it, lack basic knowledge.

Sure. We can stack that set of authors up against Harvey Manning, Colin Fletcher, Ray Jardine, Yvonne Chouinard, Mark Harvey (NOLS) and Chris Townsend to name just a few.

There are different traditions and streams of thought about backcountry travel. Survival/bushraft/campcraft is one. Military is another. And mountaineering/climbing/backpacking is yet another. I like to try to learn from all of them as I think they all have valuable insights to offer. Backpackers have a lot to learn from the survival/bushcraft tradition to be sure. But it flows the other way too.

One of the lessons from mountaineering which has been picked up by climbers and backpackers is that fires aren't needed in the backcountry and neither are fixed blades.

Edited to Add: just to emphasize, I carry a fixed blade on some trips, so this isn't an anti-fixed blade rant.
 
"Minimalist" for me = a small tarp or bivy sac instead of a tent and high-calorie but lighter weight food instead the freeze dried stuff that's much bulkier but tastier. The only reasons I've gone "minimalist" have been to pack on miles or to test equipment close to civilization. I used to do 3-4 multi day backpacking or mountain climbing trips a year for the last 25 years. Mostly in the whites of NE but I've done some mountaineering in the Pacific Northwest as well. Pic from my last multi-day trip. This particular trip was the Northern Presidentials. We did 32 or 33 miles in 3 days. Not a lot, but not bad for a small group in their late 40's and no-one in marathon running shape as my pic clearly shows. This is not what I would call "minimalist".

My point it is not to pump my own tires. The point is.... If you are doing 10+ miles a day for multiple days, in terrain like the below.... trust me, you are going to pay very close attn to what stuff weighs. The equipment, they type of food you bring, the layers of clothing you need, they type of water filtration / purification you'll use. Everything becomes a weight vs utility trade-off. People want to bring their BK9 or Junglas on a trip like that. Have at it. I'm zealous. For me, i'd rather have more food, dry socks, or heavier gloves with that weight. All that said, keep in mind, my next trip will probably see me bringing one of the small fixed blades I posted previously but specifically because they make the weight and are functional for a trip like that.

Me thinks part of the reason pinnah is getting heat is because he is posting on a knife forum where we love our blades and we love any reason to use them, especially when "camping". On a backpacker forum I think those posts would be viewed differently

 
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I'd do a weekend jaunt with just a Buck 110 and a small hatchet. With that said if I was going to purposely go with few provisions and put myself in a situation where I'd need to improvise, a fixed blade is the only way to go. No moving parts to break. You can use the butt end for a hammer. I've never been into the batoning craze but I have used a fixed to chop small branches for firewood. I'd never chop down a tree or baton but chopping none the less.
You can get by without a fixed blade, but a fixed blade offers so much more improvised usage, why would you? With that said, I don't own a fixxie, I camp safe at campsites. If I decide to be Survival Dude for a weekend or a week, I'm getting a brand new fixxie.
 
Me thinks part of the reason pinnah is getting heat is because he is posting on a knife forum where we love our blades and we love any reason to use them, especially when "camping". On a backpacker forum I think those posts would be viewed differently

I think the reason pinnah is getting kickback is because he is unable to hear any differing opinions from his own on the matter, I see plenty of threads and posts about picking an axe over a fixed blade when bushcrafting; knife forum or not people are not biased towards having fixed blades in the woods. When you try and insist your opinions are fact, you will get people reminding you that your opinions are still just opinions; even if your opinions match those of some other more famous people, there are still other opinions out there that cannot be discounted just because you don't think they're correct.
 
Me thinks part of the reason pinnah is getting heat is because he is posting on a knife forum where we love our blades and we love any reason to use them, especially when "camping". On a backpacker forum I think those posts would be viewed differently

Nice picture!

I think you are close on the "heat" issue.

As a backpacker/skier/climber/whateverer, I hold my love of knives as dearly as anybody else on this forum. So I don't think this is about love of knives vs not-enough-love of knives. It's a matter of which knives. I love my Squirt just as much as I love my trusty old H-15 fixed blade. The Squirt does things you can't do with a 5" fixed blade, and vice-versa. So this isn't really about love of knives I don't think.

My sense is that Thomas Linton has put his finger on the real underlying issue (as he often does). There are different approaches to being in the backcountry and those approaches/traditions put different different emphases on different things.

We can all learn from each other (I hope).
 
I think the reason pinnah is getting kickback is because he is unable to hear any differing opinions from his own on the matter, I see plenty of threads and posts about picking an axe over a fixed blade when bushcrafting; knife forum or not people are not biased towards having fixed blades in the woods. When you try and insist your opinions are fact, you will get people reminding you that your opinions are still just opinions; even if your opinions match those of some other more famous people, there are still other opinions out there that cannot be discounted just because you don't think they're correct.

Which fact/opinion? That a fixed blade isn't required for safe backcountry travel?

Asserting that a fixed blade is needed for safe backcountry travel would get you laughed out of any backpacking, climbing, backcountry skiing, mountaineering oriented forum I've ever been on. I'm surprised a bit that people find that so upsetting and am frankly a bit unsure what to attribute it to.

But really, thousands and thousands of people travel in the backcountry safely without a fixed blade.
 
Clearly there are different schools of thought about this. One thing that I think is a fairly big key differentiator in this, is the type of background/purpose each of these "schools of thought" have.

  • Survival instructors/military schools are often operating under the assumption that you DON'T have any other specialized "camping" supplies (other than perhaps bare minimums). A fixed blade pilots survival knife, is included in the plane because it is very versatile, and with proper training it can provide many things (shelter/fire/food, etc) for you.
  • Backpacking has especially in recent years been a big "leave no trace", and going many miles per day. Because of this, they emphasize low pack weight. So partially because of their desire for light packs, and partially because they're already carrying their own shelter/insulation/etc, they can "get away" with carrying very small knives (or sometimes even none at all).
  • Can't comment on mountaineering, as I am not familiar enough with what they do to generalize it at all :/.

So, for me, it comes down to comfort level, and what I plan on doing (and my skill level with each tool, which I know isn't really pertinent to this conversation). But my overly cautious nature just makes me worry about only planning for things on going according to plan. Which is why I usually bring at least a light fixed blade (Mora) regardless of the trip.

If I'm hiking a well marked trail, that I know I'll see some traffic on, I'm not going to worry too much if I just have a small folder though, especially if I'm not alone. Worst case, something goes horribly wrong, but I can more or less count on someone (because I left a plan with my friends/family) will be looking for me, or someone will come along and find me.

If I am setting off to "explore" or blaze new trail, or be in more remote situations with less chance of assistance, I'll be bringing a fixed blade. If one of my more specialized tools breaks/goes missing, there is a decent chance that the knife will be able to fill that void well enough to get by. There is no guarantee of course that a more versatile fixed blade will somehow save me, but I like my chances to fashion an emergency splint better with a Mora/BK16 style knife than with a sak classic or razor blade (just as an example).
 
Can you describe a circumstance in which a fixed blade (or large folder) is truly needed?

Well, when I deliberately went out during the heaviest rain we had that year, after it had rained a bunch in the preceding weeks, if not for my fixed blade knife and lighter it would have been very, very bad.

Of course, I could have stayed at home...or bought expensive clothes I don't own that would keep me warm in those conditions...or used an axe (not very lightweight)...or packed some ultra-lightweight (ultra-expensive) mega-tent.
But given the conditions was in, with the equipment I had deliberately brought, the fixed blade knife--and a lighter--were absolutely necessary. :)
 
Asserting that a fixed blade is needed for safe backcountry travel would get you laughed out of any backpacking, climbing, backcountry skiing, mountaineering oriented forum I've ever been on.

Sounds like they're a bunch of judgemental dicks, from what you say.
If carrying a fixed blade knife will keep me from ever having to hang out with those guys, I'll gladly carry the extra weight. :thumbup:
 
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