Minimalist camping without a fixed blade

Your lack of understanding what others are saying has led you to repeat yourself yet again, and I'm not sure what else to say since it doesn't seem like you want to listen to anybody but yourself.

Matthew, I was trying to respond directly to your earlier post. Sorry we're not communicating yet. Whereas you would see an extra 10oz for a bigger fixed blade as adding to your safety, I would see the extra 1/2 lb of steel as taking away safety. That's enough weight to notice. My knife is 2 oz.

The question of "why is a fixed blade needed" can be reversed as well....

Why would I carry a folder, when a small, sturdy fixed blade will do just the same task, and possibly be more useful?

An ESEE Izula, or similar, small fixed blade, doesn't weigh any more than most folders, has no chance of a pivot breaking, and can be abused infinitely more - without failure - if need be. It can be quicker to deploy (especially wearing gloves) than a folder, and can be trusted more to pry, hack, chop, etc, as it's all a single piece of steel.

What does weight have to do with fixed or folder? I find there are almost invariably fixed options that are as light as, or even lighter than, most folders. I tend to carry folders for the sake of convenience, but if I was counting every ounce and wasn't particularly concerned about social mores (as I'm not when backpacking) a lightweight fixed blade would be my preference every time.

This is a really good point and I agree that light fixed blades are nice options. They aren't needed, but they don't hit the scales hard either.

My folder is only 2oz. I don't know of any 3.5" or bigger fixed blades that are lighter. Most lightweight fixed blades that I'm aware of will be in the 3 to 4 oz range, when you include the sheath, no?
 
If I am trekking and camping for fun, have tent, have cooking system, have food and water; and have warm clothing, then I don't need much knife. A SAK and a light weight folder is plenty. I'm unlikely to ever get lost where I go. For any distance then the lighter the pack the better.

My son who does more than I takes a SAK.

In the military though I carried a fixed utility combat knife, that rarely ever got used.

If I have work to do in the woods, or just dicking about in the woods, then I take the right tools which includes a fixed. I don't need much excuse to take one, and carry one regularly. But then I'm not humping with a pack for miles and miles. If I'm doing bushcraft things then I'm never going too far, and proper tools are part of the course. Recently I've been using small fixed blades as much as my folders, because they are better.
Lastly no folder will replace a Skrama or Axe.

If you want something contentious then I've come to the conclusion very big knives, such as Junglas/Jessica/Big Busse class, are pretty useless being so inefficient. Better to take more than one type of tool for the same weight.
 
This is a really good point and I agree that light fixed blades are nice options. They aren't needed, but they don't hit the scales hard either.

My folder is only 2oz. I don't know of any 3.5" or bigger fixed blades that are lighter. Most lightweight fixed blades that I'm aware of will be in the 3 to 4 oz range, when you include the sheath, no?

Mora classic #1?
 
Matthew, I was trying to respond directly to your earlier post. Sorry we're not communicating yet. Whereas you would see an extra 10oz for a bigger fixed blade as adding to your safety, I would see the extra 1/2 lb of steel as taking away safety. That's enough weight to notice. My knife is 2 oz.

This is a really good point and I agree that light fixed blades are nice options. They aren't needed, but they don't hit the scales hard either.

My folder is only 2oz. I don't know of any 3.5" or bigger fixed blades that are lighter. Most lightweight fixed blades that I'm aware of will be in the 3 to 4 oz range, when you include the sheath, no?

So, I'm still pretty new to backpacking. I tried to "gear up" as cost effectively as I can, with an eye towards the 80/20 rule (80% of the benefit, 20% of the price). I do agree that ounces add up to pounds, but will say thats usually over a large number of items. And when you're gearing up, each one of those choices can really add up to a number of pounds different pack weights. I don't see a huge impact from deciding to take a single item that adds a few ounces as "decreasing my safety", as long as you're not making that same choice over and over again for every piece of gear.

Doing some math, just for me.

My rough base weight is less than 15lbs (lighterpacks shows ~13lbs, but doesn't include a few things like the other water bottles I carry). You add food and some water... lets call that 20lbs (for easy math). For me, the choice between a my Mora (4.62oz with sheath, rangerband, and small firesteel), and an Opinel is basically a 2oz choice.

A 2oz difference out of 20lbs total, works out to roughly a 0.63% increase in weight. I don't think I could feel that, nor do I think that this would impact my safety (assuming you're relating additional weight to increased likelihood of mechanical injury). In fact, for less than a percent in total load change, I do actually view my Mora as more beneficial (utility provided > extra weight).

Then, some more math, with an absurdly heavy (for backpacking) BK2. We'll call it roughly a pound (for easy math again). Thats a 5% increase in weight over the Opinel. Now, would it add enough to make me injure myself? Hard to say, and thats the most extreme example I have out of what I own.

I do say that I feel that for backpacking (where you're literally carrying your other things you need to survive on your back), the need for a "fixed" blade knife is lessened in many areas/seasons (because we all agree a knife in general is necessary), but don't think I'd straight up say they aren't necessary ever/anywhere. But especially for situations that may be remote, or for a day hike, etc (where you might not have everything you need to survive a night in the woods), a fixed blade becomes a more clear preference to me.

If I was solo hiking, and rolled my ankle really bad in most places I have gone, I could simply hobble to the nearest trees, hang up my hammock, and wait until the next person comes along to give me a hand. I wouldn't freeze to death, or even really be uncomfortable (other than the ankle). If I go on a dayhike for a few hours and have the same problem, I don't have those other resources available, so my desire for a fixed blade is increased. And, when I say fixed blade, I don't mean a giant one. Just something reasonable.
 
I've said no such thing. Please stop putting words in my mouth so you can argue against them. You're doing it intentionally (assuming you have basic reading comprehension skills).

I carry a fixed blade in the woods sometimes. Got it? I'm not against fixed blades in the woods. Got it?

If you want to disagree with me, let me make the statements very clear so you can disagree with me honestly based on what I've actually said.

Fixed blades are necessary for safe backcountry travel.

Harvesting wood and burning fires in places where it is illegal or unsustainable damages the backcountry for others.

If you want points to disagree with, you are free to voice your disagreement with those statements.



Nobody is arguing that point.

But, people who insist that fixed blades are required for safe backcountry travel are mistaken and display a lack of knowledge. Really, this is pretty basic knowledge.



Again, please stop putting words into my mouth. I've said repeatedly that people should carry what makes them happy. Yes, I've said what works for me. But nowhere have I ever said people should carry what I do. Not once. You can't find it because I've not written it. I assume you understand this, so why do you keep putting words in my mouth?

Classic! :D
 
From reading this thread, this minimalist camping seems like an awful hobby to me, I for one will not participate in any outdoors activity that doesn't include a multitude of knives & other sharp implements!

Camping is, and should be, a great excuse for bringing extra knives with you in my opinion, speaking as a knife knut here.


1234,,,:D

Damn right, 1234. The most minimal I'm gonna get on any camping trip includes the three essentials: A small knife or tool thing, larger fixed blade or small machete, unlimited amounts of beef jerky, and an ass-pocket of Jack Daniels.

hexenjager, the rancher, in post #30 gave the straight dope when he talked about cold hands and losing your fine motor skills, and how good a fixed blade can be in those conditions. Cold and wet will get you.

And let's see you lash your SAK to a pole to make an emergency spear!

Hell, just recently a fellow in Minnesota had to fight a bear to the death using his fixed blade. Got his 15 minutes out of the deal, that's for sure. I think I found the GoPro footage. That fixed blade saved his bacon, for sure:

[video=youtube;QhDinIBETiI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhDinIBETiI[/video]
 
.... Thats a 5% increase in weight over the Opinel. Now, would it add enough to make me injure myself? Hard to say, and thats the most extreme example I have out of what I own..

Stepping away from fixed vs folder for a sec...

The main reason many ultra lite campers and backpackers shave weight with what seems like minuscule choices is because weight compounds over miles. The more you carry, the harder your body works with each step. That extra half pound means nothing when you hoist your pack. But with every step over multiple days, it sucks more energy out of you and it adds up over miles / hours /days.

For them, It's not about a single knife, but compromise on similar choices 5 times on one trip.... All of a sudden your sucking wind on the 9th hour on every day of a trip. Best case, your not enjoying the hike. Worst case, you are making bad decisions because you are tired and not thinking clearly.

There is no question in a worse case scenario, i want one of my large fixed blades. My experience has taught me that depending on my trip, I may be better off carrying a lighter blade.

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When I go camping I want to enjoy myself. If by truck I'll take beer and my tools. But if by foot traveling miles between A and B then the lighter the load, taking whats needed, makes the trekking enjoyable. Add a few pounds too much and after a few hours in its less fun. A lot of hours later no fun at all. Even when ten days in, mountain fit, keeping the pack manageable just makes it all so much more enjoyable. Have to be pretty ruthless to bin every ounce not absolutely required. Have to be intelligent about it. I prefer to use the weight to upgrade my cold weather kit to carrying a heavier knife that might never be used.
Basically I want to look at the view not my feet plodding under too much weight.

When I was in the military, and very fit, they heaped kit on to the point is was hard graft from the go. Heck, picking up the pack was a two man effort. Endurance was calories, sweat and blood, with bitch determination. Months of training it was manageable but still hard graft and not much fun. We did it because we were young and didn't know better. Have crushed vertebrae to prove it.

Now I just go out and enjoy myself.

I have fixed and folders that are similar in weight and I could take either. Going very light I tend to take latter because I won't be using a knife much. Its not an either or argument, take whatever you want.

But if the question is minimalist bushcraft camping then I do something very similar to this, and thats fun too (I just make better stew):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxbNupxUygM

Last couple of points.
The Bear argument is dumb. If you are likely to be in bear country then take one of the sprays, and or a Glock 10mm.
I also think a quality Spyderco, Spyderco Military, is a better build than a Mora.
 
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Stepping away from fixed vs folder for a sec...

The main reason many ultra lite campers and backpackers shave weight with what seems like minuscule choices is because weight compounds over miles. The more you carry, the harder your body works with each step. That extra half pound means nothing when you hoist your pack. But with every step over multiple days, it sucks more energy out of you and it adds up over miles / hours /days.

For them, It's not about a single knife, but compromise on similar choices 5 times on one trip.... All of a sudden your sucking wind on the 9th hour of every day of a trip. Best case, your not enjoying the hike. Worst case, you are making bad decisions because you are tired and not thinking clearly.

There is no question in a worse case scenario, i want one of my fixed blades. My experience has taught me that depending on my trip, I may be better served with a lighter blade.

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This is an interesting perspective. But, sometimes, the trade off of extra weight is worth it.

I've been around racing my entire life, and have been involved in building quite a few race cars and motorcycles. Shaving weight is always an issue. But there is often a balance between saving a few ounces/pounds vs. the benefits of the equipment. Such as steel braided brake lines, for example. They weigh a few ounces more per line, but the performance/safety benefits outweigh an weight saving over using regular rubber lines. Same can be said for various other components.

I understand that every ounce adds up over time with every footstep. But for me, the trade off of 2 or 3 extra ounces on ONE thing (a light fixed blade) outweighs the very slight weight advantage of a folder. Just my personal opinion.
 
Stepping away from fixed vs folder for a sec...

The main reason many ultra lite campers and backpackers shave weight with what seems like minuscule choices is because weight compounds over miles. The more you carry, the harder your body works with each step. That extra half pound means nothing when you hoist your pack. But with every step over multiple days, it sucks more energy out of you and it adds up over miles / hours /days.

For them, It's not about a single knife, but compromise on similar choices 5 times on one trip.... All of a sudden your sucking wind on the 9th hour of every day of a trip. Best case, your not enjoying the hike. Worst case, you are making bad decisions because you are tired and not thinking clearly.

There is no question in a worse case scenario, i want one of my fixed blades. My experience has taught me that depending on my trip, I may be better served with a lighter blade.

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For what its worth, I completely agree with you. I used the bk2 as an extreme example, to show how much a difference it would make in contrast to the first comparison.

In my own somewhat limited backpacking experiences, I've listened to wise words like this, and have tried to keep the pack weight down. That's why even as a "knife guy", I have brought a Mora, opinel, or sak each trip. I was just saying that for me, I prefer the Mora, even though its "twice" the weight of the opinel, as the overall difference in weight is so small.
 
This is an interesting perspective. But, sometimes, the trade off of extra weight is worth it.

And I agree with you. Sometimes the trade off is worth it. But make an informed decision.

BTW... I used to race street bikes and the braided brake line analogy is perfect.

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When I camp I canoe. My canoe carries a lot, so for me minimalist camping would be leaving the 4Litre wine box behind, only carrying one 6" fixed blade and just packing the SAK tweezers. The saw, axe and neck knife are minimal. Anything less would be a serious survival situation. The longer your blade the more cutting edge you have. This bush craft fad with short blades is a joke; just a folding knife is hilarious!
 
Is a fixed blade really needed?

Ever seen an Eskimo build an igloo when they were out hunting? A machete is a wonderful thing to have when you are winter camping. It makes cutting blocks of snow a piece of cake.

Who ever stated you loose motor skills when wet, cold and tired is 100% correct. I would rather carry a fixed blade when snow camping than my Cadet SAK. So, for my camping style, yes, a fixed blade is needed.
 
Damn right, 1234. The most minimal I'm gonna get on any camping trip includes the three essentials: A small knife or tool thing, larger fixed blade or small machete, unlimited amounts of beef jerky, and an ass-pocket of Jack Daniels.

Also if having the weight of a fixed blade etc, make you think that you could injure yourself while walking around, makes me think maybe the walking around in it self is a much bigger problem, then the carry of said fixed blade etc,.

Is minimalist camping supposed to be fun, or self punishment?


1234,,,:D
 
Fixed blades are not needed in the backcountry and those who insist that they are lack basic knowledge about backcountry skills.



This shot was taken several miles away from the nearest trail head. A guy I know nearly died within a mile of here while skiing, as he hooked his tip while skiing solo and got a double spiral fracture in his femur. He survived, in no small part, due to his knowledge, skill and equipment (and a great deal of luck).


Lunch spot by Pinnah, on Flickr


Dave, what you mention here is a perfect reason why a stout fixed blade is needed. Shite happens. Unplanned events can change things in a heartbeat. Life can change on a dime. A fall, a skiing accident. A slip and a broken ankle.

Laying in the freezing cold hoping for rescue is not the way to go. With a broken leg, a small machete will let you make splints in very short order. A few chops and you're through most saplings that would take a while to whittle through with a pocket knife. If there are a few forked saplings around, a pair of crutches can be chopped out quick, and you're on the way, if slowly. Beats laying there.

I once got caught out on a Sunday morning hike in the snow with a friend and his wife. What happened is that my friends wife did slip, and did break an ankle. We had only our pocket knives because we were in a suburban area, almost shouting distance from dwellings, but down in a ravine in the snow. We made a stretcher by whittling down a couple of saplings with pocket knives and I vowed to never get caught out like that again. Unplanned events happen in all kinds of places. If 10 ounces to a pound gives me the ability to make what I may need from my surroundings in an emergency, then that's weight that I will gladly carry, and I'm one of the biggest minimalists I know. I go on fanatic hunts for the oct compact and lightweight gear I can find. But I want my small machete with me. Stuff happens. My 9 inch little chopper ain't getting left behind.
 
Dave, what you mention here is a perfect reason why a stout fixed blade is needed. Shite happens. Unplanned events can change things in a heartbeat. Life can change on a dime. A fall, a skiing accident. A slip and a broken ankle.

Laying in the freezing cold hoping for rescue is not the way to go. With a broken leg, a small machete will let you make splints in very short order. A few chops and you're through most saplings that would take a while to whittle through with a pocket knife. If there are a few forked saplings around, a pair of crutches can be chopped out quick, and you're on the way, if slowly. Beats laying there.

I once got caught out on a Sunday morning hike in the snow with a friend and his wife. What happened is that my friends wife did slip, and did break an ankle. We had only our pocket knives because we were in a suburban area, almost shouting distance from dwellings, but down in a ravine in the snow. We made a stretcher by whittling down a couple of saplings with pocket knives and I vowed to never get caught out like that again. Unplanned events happen in all kinds of places. If 10 ounces to a pound gives me the ability to make what I may need from my surroundings in an emergency, then that's weight that I will gladly carry, and I'm one of the biggest minimalists I know. I go on fanatic hunts for the oct compact and lightweight gear I can find. But I want my small machete with me. Stuff happens. My 9 inch little chopper ain't getting left behind.

Great post!
 
Always carried a fixed blade but rarely ever used it, and can't say for certain I ever needed it.
My folder took care of everything from removing thorns to cleaning fish to making wood shavings to processing deer.

Hard to beat a SAK for camping as they are so handy, but the Vic Classic is too small for me. A sharp SAK is sufficient for field chores with deer but I prefer something else. The Leatherman Squirt PS4 is mighty handy too and I could get by with just that if I wanted to.

The lack of need for a fixed blade has been my experience for the most part if I have a folder with me although I usually have at least a small fixed blade on me these days. Why? I like knives, but I know that a fixed blade is stronger and stuff happens sometimes and you need to take at least minimalist precautions.

Added: One of my considerations which includes a fixed blade is some cutting redundancy while in the woods. I depend on having the ability to cut stuff when I need to. I might loose a knife, so I have another available. Just having the knife with me makes me feel more secure.

Also, the bickering between folks on this subject is always fun. I know Pinnah, Stabman, Shinyedges, general opinion's on this subject and the topic of fixed blade carry in general. I am not particularly a fixed blade guy, but I have been carrying a fixed blade just about everyday for the last month along with a folder. Talk about a change.....
 
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Hard to beat a SAK for camping as they are so handy, but the Vic Classic is too small for me. A sharp SAK is sufficient for field chores with deer but I prefer something else. The Leatherman Squirt PS4 is mighty handy too and I could get by with just that if I wanted to.

The lack of need for a fixed blade has been my experience for the most part if I have a folder with me although I usually have at least a small fixed blade on me these days. Why? I like knives, but I know that a fixed blade is stronger and stuff happens sometimes and you need to take at least minimalist precautions.

I think the so called "need" thing gets too much attention. In a 50 year plus expericed of backpacking, and hiking in may places under many kind of weather conditions, I never "needed" a large fixed blade but one time. That was enough to teach me about "needs" changing in a heartbeat. You have to think about not needs, but instead what 'may' happen. Maybe nothing, maybe a life threatening injury, change of unpredicted weather.

I like ultra light as much as the next old fart who can't lug what I used to lug. Under perfect conditions, Imay not need anything but a Victorinox classic and my bag of snacks for the afternoon. Fixed blade? Not likey. But like you say, it's wise take minimal precautions. A small first aid kit, some water, an extra sweater and rain pancho in the day pack. And for me, a blade big enough to construct an emergent shelter or a crutch.

Once you walk out of shouting distance form a road, all bets are off. It ain't like walking in the park and all you have to do is yell for help and someone calls the police. Off in the woods, the only thing you can count on is you. That fancy cell phone isn't worth a tinkers damm if you fall in a creek and need a fire like right now because its freezing cold and you're soaked. For one thing, the cell phone won;t work after getting wet. The other, it ain't gonna get you any dry kindling to start a fire. Kinda hard to baton with the little bade of a squirt or SAK.

If you need to save that much weight, save on areas where it doesn't matter. Dried food, light pile clothing, AAA mini flashinght instead of some maglight. But if do-do hits the fan, that 10 ounces of weight a small machete was that you left at home now could be a life saver. You can get a 9 to 10 inch bladed knife that is as light as most 5 to 6 inch blade knives. Thinner blade stock like a machete, no guards of brass or nickel silver, synthetic handle scales, all cut weight. But you'll still have a viable tool if you really need it for that once in a lifetime bad experience. There's no need to let a bad experience become the last experience you have.

The devout backpacking crowd is made of a lot of idealistic people who somehow think the world is Mister Rogers Nieghborhood, or Pee Wee's playhouse. Most of them have been lucky. I hope for their sakes their luck continues. But not planning for unexpended events, natural or manmade, is just plain foolish. This is a subject that is near and dear to me. Too many people don't think ahead. Especially the hippy backpacking crowd. I hat to use a general stereotype, but when the shoe fits.

When you venture out into nature, it ain't the local shopping mall. You best be prepared for what may come down the trail. It's like being armed. People in that crowd scoff at carry a gun also. Yet how many backpacker and hikers have been victimized while off in the woods? Think the Blood Mountain murders. Gary Hilton also killed a few elderly people he fund hiking, and once he had their pin numbers off the ATM cards, beat them to death. Yeah, Mr. Rogers wasn't around. And he wasn't the only one. Google murders on the Appellation Trail. There's been several. Stuff happens.

A sturdy fixed blade and a small concealed pistol are two things that I think it's very foolish to go off road without. Break a leg and you'll wish for the chopper. Run into a woods wacko and you'll wish for the pistol. The ten essentials are in my opinion of a lifetime of experience, should be the 11 essentials.
 
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