Minimalist camping without a fixed blade

[stabman]

Maybe the Junglas is a medium blade in your hands. Its too much of a good thing for most people. It may well get the job done but not in the most efficient way.

Really depends on what you need to get done.

There was a time I was trying to hike through a neglected area where the tall grasses had been left to grow wild for WAY too long.
I had a 12 inch machete with me, which did not work as efficiently as the Junglas (which I had left at home...wanted to try out the short machete).
What I really needed was a grass cutting machete; long and thin blade.

For the area I most often go, though, the Junglas had proven to be quite great. :thumbup:
That area has barrier areas of thorns that the Junglas gets rid out quite nicely.
I brought an 18 inch machete out there, and the extra reach didn't help for that particular task; the extra length did make it too unwieldy for use around the campsite itself though.

So I guess I really depends on what environment you're heading to.
For a jungle or overgrown grassland, some variety of full-sized machete will make life more pleasant.
For my favourite place to go, the Junglas is just the trick.
On a mountain, well, you'd have to ask people that go to them.

When I went to Rondeau Provincial Park to stay at my friend's cottage, pretty much no knife use happened at all; the cottage is right near the lakefront, and the beaches don't have anything requiring a knife growing on them at all.
Even if we'd been camping outside, that part of the park would have had us scrounging dried grasses, bark and driftwood.

I didn't enjoy Rondeau as much due to the lack of knife related things to do.

 

[stabman]

Of course, my take on knives and the outdoors will be different than some.
Some people go to the outdoors and bring a knife.
I go to the outdoors because of knives.

Which I guess isn't any more odd than people who go out there to rack up the maximum number of miles, or get the most pictures of birds, or hug the oldest tree in the forest.

 

[Quiet]

You are putting words into my mouth. Nobody is suggesting that carrying a fixed blade puts you "close to death". Sheesh.

Based on your experience, can you suggest a single scenario where a fixed blade is necessary and not optional?

This is exactly what you alluded to when you stated that extra ounces means a safety risk to you.

 

[Quiet]

I'd do a weekend jaunt with just a Buck 110 and a small hatchet. With that said if I was going to purposely go with few provisions and put myself in a situation where I'd need to improvise, a fixed blade is the only way to go. No moving parts to break. You can use the butt end for a hammer. I've never been into the batoning craze but I have used a fixed to chop small branches for firewood. I'd never chop down a tree or baton but chopping none the less.
You can get by without a fixed blade, but a fixed blade offers so much more improvised usage, why would you? With that said, I don't own a fixxie, I camp safe at campsites. If I decide to be Survival Dude for a weekend or a week, I'm getting a brand new fixxie.

A good point. :thumbup:

 

[Quiet]

You make my point for me.

Carrying a knife of some sort is on pretty much every version of the "ten essentials" since Harvey Manning and Seattle Mountaineers first wrote about it in the classic, "The Freedom of the Hills".

The requirement to have a locking knife is a bit odd, but whatever. As you note, the race organizers accepted a small folder.

The relatively recent law changes in NH allow NH Fish and Game to charge people for rescue costs if they don't have the right equipment with them, which includes the 10 Essentials, which in turn includes a knife.

I wonder if the OP would be brave enough to jump back into this love-fest and clarify their interest in minimal camping with no fixed blade and perhaps we can discuss the techniques needed to do that safely.

Or we could just keep having this futile discussion about why fixed blades are needed (even though they aren't).

Again... I dig me my fixed blades. But the whole kit is essential.

Please stop posting your opinion as though it is a fact, it isn't. Thanks.

 

[Quiet]

Matthew, I was trying to respond directly to your earlier post. Sorry we're not communicating yet. Whereas you would see an extra 10oz for a bigger fixed blade as adding to your safety, I would see the extra 1/2 lb of steel as taking away safety. That's enough weight to notice. My knife is 2 oz.





This is a really good point and I agree that light fixed blades are nice options. They aren't needed, but they don't hit the scales hard either.

My folder is only 2oz. I don't know of any 3.5" or bigger fixed blades that are lighter. Most lightweight fixed blades that I'm aware of will be in the 3 to 4 oz range, when you include the sheath, no?

Wow, how weak do you have to be in order to feel that your personal safety is threatened by 10 ounces? I have been on countless hikes, one of my longest, I hiked 16 miles in a single day, with a pack weighing around 32lbs. I didn't die, and sure I was sore at the end, but I was still able to get up and do it again the next day (pack was slightly lighter due to having eaten some of the food). At this point, I can't see your personal views on camping and gear as anything other than ridiculous. You keep talking about all these books you've read, and frankly, I have to shake my head. Books? I just went out and did it. I've spent hundreds of nights outdoors and have hiked and camped on multiple continents. I couldn't imagine sitting down to read a book on how to camp or hike. Don't know what to tell you, man.

 

[Macchina]

I will always bring a folder (always in my pocket) and fixed blade (usually in my pack) when I backpack. If I want to go lightweight they both get lighter (usually Benchmade Griptilian and Mora Classic). I'm in the woods most every weekend at my cabin and a day in the woods usually just calls for a slipjoint and a folder (usually a GEC and a Sebenza).

With what Mora's weigh and how useful they are, I see no reason to not bring it. They are the perfect knife to have when camping in groups too because they are one of my only blades I'm OK with lending out.

 

[Quiet]

Pinnah no firesteel ? No rain poncho ? No water container ?

Exactly what I was about to add. :thumbup:

I also see no water purification other than the pills. A shame, water filters today are small and light and don't take up much room in a pack, with the added benefit that water doesn't taste like iodine tablets. But, well, when someone is afraid that a few extra ounces means a slow death alongside the trail, I guess the pills make sense. LOL

 

[22-rimfire]

With what Mora's weigh and how useful they are, I see no reason to not bring it. They are the perfect knife to have when camping in groups too because they are one of my only blades I'm OK with lending out.

Good point!

 

[22-rimfire]

Just measured the Junglas; 0.045" behind the edge, which ain't extremely thick.

I have no trouble carrying them for miles...certainly not a "truck knife", as I don't even own a car.

I find it cuts springy green vegetation quite easily, but that may just be testament to my greatness.
I don't find stopping it during a committed chop to be difficult either...but that may just be further testament to my greatness.

I was able to use it for more than 7 hours of continuous work after requiring multiple muscle relaxers to even become able to stand upright (the joys of back spasms that bend you in half; yay!), so I can't see how it is too heavy to slash with for an extended period of time (unless I just have superhuman strength...I could accept that verdict ).

Wasn't too heavy to be used dextrously enough that I didn't even use my pocket knife on some occasions.
That could be due to my Hulk-like status that was just established though, who knows.

So yeah, either I have latent super-powers that only pertain to the use of knives, or the Junglas at least is not embodying the characteristics you ascribe to it.

I think it is a testament to your greatness mostly. As you mention in the next post, the longer thin bladed machete works well for the thin flexible stuff, even grass. My favorite... 18" Condor El Salvador. Does well on big stuff too.

 

[pinnah]

I don't know why, but it seems like the whole sport of backpacking took off in the 1960's and 70's when there was a strong "hippy" element involved. A kind of peace movement in the woods thing.

The barefoot, ramen-slurping hippie with a Victorinox Climber in his pocket vs the fire-breathing military vet with a Kabar (or 119) in his teeth is such a common trope that it's the mainstay of the show Dual Survival and the recipe for picking contestants on Alone. Maybe the real reason for the sparks in this thread?

It was during that time somethings fell out of favor, and common sense seems to be one them. I remember that comment about breaking off the nail file blade, and it was in a Colin Fletcher book. Nonsense.

If, and that's a big "IF" everything goes well, you may need ev er really need a large knife or a pistol. But…also a big "BUT" things do go wrong now and then. I read where some backpacking self styled experts say you don't need to have any wood processing tools, because your super duper stove will heat any food you need. Fine. But…there's that word, what happens when some little piece of metal gets fatigued and breaks, or some gasket gives out, and for some reason the stove fails to work? Now all of a sudden, you need to get a fire going or freeze. Oh wait, it's gonna be kind of hard to split some firewood with a SAK classic, or even a tinker. Especially if it's unexpectedly rained or had an unseasonal snow. Wet wood don't take a flame too well.

Now I admit I love the small to even tiny knives. But…that three letter word again, that's my choice for the most urban/suburban life I live. Even after moving here to Texas, I rarely carry any more knife than a peanut sized pocket knife. Going t the stores, running errands around town, whatever, it's all I need. But…Yeah that word again, if I and the wifey go hiking off in the woods, my daypack is with me, and aside from water and small first aid kit is my little machete. I'm out of shouting distance from the road, I don't really know what will happen until we get home again, so I want a real cutter on hand. This is country side thick with cedar and mesquite thickets, cactus and heavy brush. A machete is actually more needed here than back home in Maryland. Sometimes the trail is a little overgrown.

A good example of other natural dangers is the local wildlife. In addition to rattle snakes, coyotes that have been known to be rabid, mountain lions, are the wild hogs. The Texas hill country is full of them, and most of the time they run off. But sometimes they get a little territorial, especially if they have a nice oak tree that has dropped a lot acorns for a all you can eat hog experience. A few people have been chased up a tree, and a few actually injured by a hog. I like having my Glock on my hip, which is legal here in the Lone Star state.

Not having a crystal ball, we humans don't know what is going to happen at any one time. But…leave it to mother nature to bring up a harsh lesson in just how fragile we humans are when off away from our civilized surroundings. Purposefully setting out in nature with just a Vic classic or other small knife as your stand alone cutlery, is plain foolish.

I drive my hiking and skiing mates nutty by showing up wearing buffalo plaid. They roll their eyes but some of them freak out when bushwacking (hunting taught me that) and most of them couldn't get a fire running (bushcrafty stuff taught me that). I remind them they could learn an awful lot if they took the "red-neck" ways more seriously.

But the insight cuts the other way. My cousins used to roll their eyes when I showed up to hunting camp wearing high-faluting softshelled pants instead of traditional wool. 15 years later, some of them have converted. Almost as shocking as somebody converting from a revolver to a Glock!!

Not my picture but I've spent a good amount of time in places like this.

Up here, you're not going to build a fire. A fixed blade or any big knife is nothing but an unneeded drag. Up here, you trust your life to your gear and your skill... The ability of crampons to stay on your boots. The ability to make turns on steep terrain in difficult snow.

Colin Fletcher once wrote something to the effect that you should choose your stove wisely because it's easier to get somebody to change their religion than their stove. I've trusted my life to a Svea 123 and there have been a few times where it's made the difference. The alcohol stoves like Trangias or even simple Pepsi can stoves have no moving parts to fail. Up here, a stove is your fire. Fuel is the enabler, not a knife.

Not me, but been there, done that...

I recognize the the military, hunting, bushcrafty leanings of Bladeforums but would like to think that there's room at the table for those of who love knives that match our needs ideally. And I'd like to think that revolver guys or fixed blade guys could learn from moutaineers, even if they are hippies or, worse, yuppies.

The best knife for a given circumstance is the best knife for that circumstance. Up here, something like a Victorinox Climber (or a small folder combined with small multi-tool) is an ideal solution.

What does this have to do with minimalist camping? The tools and techniques that allow for (relatively) safe travel above treeline can also be used for travel below treeline. It's stove based, not fire based. Minimal weight. Minimal local impact. Minimal effort. And that I think is the other thing that happened in the 70s and 80s. Climbers worked out the systems above treeline and backpackers like Colin Fletcher applied them at lower altitudes, which explains why he gave up his fixed blade for a Victorinox.

 

[sodak]

The barefoot, ramen-slurping hippie with a Victorinox Climber in his pocket vs the fire-breathing military vet with a Kabar (or 119) in his teeth is such a common trope that it's the mainstay of the show Dual Survival and the recipe for picking contestants on Alone. Maybe the real reason for the sparks in this thread?

Jackknife is one of the most well-balanced and respectable people I've ever met on BF, and you're trying to force him into a false dichotomy... Unreal...

 

[pinnah]

Pinnah no firesteel ? No rain poncho ? No water container ?

I always carry a rain jacket. Past several years it's been a Marmot Precip but that changes over time. Jackets are more useful to me given the amount of time I spend above treeline.

Water containers aren't shown here either.

I generally don't carry a firesteel for minimal, lower weight camping because I'm relying on a stove (white gas or alcohol) and stoves are so much easier to light with lighters. Actually... I take that back... I keep a small firesteel with one of my alcohol stoves as that's an easy way to start that stove.

Note, I carry a Zippo with a small bottle of extra lighter fluid. That works for must multi-day trips. I also have a back up Bic and those work just great.

 

[pinnah]

Jackknife is one of the most well-balanced and respectable people I've ever met on BF, and you're trying to force him into a false dichotomy... Unreal...

Carl and I are friends. He gave up a revolver for a Glock and at the end of the day, he knows that its a false dichotomy and not a full picture to write off Fletcher (and his peers) as "hippies".

 

[White Crown]

I've gone hatchet/folder only with no problems, but usually I have about 20 knives I WANT to take, and settle on 3... or 4. Not really "minimal" anymore but I cant help it. I think it boils down to your skills and knowledge in the region. The more you know, the less you need. I still need a cutting tool of some sort and therefore bring a few. As previously stated, Moras are pretty light, now which one to bring...

 

[jackknife]

Carl and I are friends. He gave up a revolver for a Glock and at the end of the day, he knows that its a false dichotomy and not a full picture to write off Fletcher (and his peers) as "hippies".

Apples and oranges, and has little to do with the discussion at hand of fixed blade or not.

The Glock is a perfect example though, of a bit of what we're talking about. A more effective tool at little more bulk and weight, and is so much more effective as it justifies the slight increase in weight. For two ounces difference, the Glock 26 gives me 10 shots instead of 5, and has rapid reloading by slipping in a fresh magazine in a two second time. The little revolver you have had to fumble with speed loaders for another 5 shots. The snubbie .38 had a 1 7/8th little barrel with a very short sighting radius. The Glock has a 3.4 inch barrel with a longer sight radius. The Glock is a flatter package with no cylinder bulge. The Glock is a far simpler mechanism with fewer moving parts, and is far easier to field strip and clean in the bush. The 9mm round is a higher velocity and flatter shooting round. There was no resin to keep on carrying what was a dated handgun. It was clear that the Glock offered a more effective tool.

Same with the fixed blade. My 9 inch small bush cleaver is lighter weight than many 6 or 7 inch fixed blades, has better chopping ability, has very good slicing ability for camp cooking use, and in an emergency will take down small saplings far faster and with less effort than a folding saw. If I'm having trouble with fine motor movement because of hypothermia setting in, I do't want to be fooling around with some little SAK saw going back and forth in 1 3/4 inch strokes. Been there, done that, ain't gonna do it again. I pride myself by learning from past mistakes, and never making the same mistake again. I'll never forget kneeling there in the snow on a cold Sunday morning with a frigging pocket knife whittling down a sapling for a litter to carry Danny's wife out of the woods, while wishing I had the Randall 14 that was sitting home, or the small machete that was in the car trunk. That one pound item was badly needed that morning, and it now lives in my daypack. I'll never make that mistake again.

As for the comments on the hippy backpackers. I stand by that. I was backpacking in the 60's, and more than a few times some ponytailed nitwit with a peace sign hanging around his neck made a comment about my fixed blade on my hip. "Hey man, you Jim Bowie or something?" BS like that. Well, like has been said in the thread many times, shite happens. You may make a hundred trips in the wild, and never need more than a SAK. Or you may go a lifetime, who knows. But…that word again…that's the point, that you don't know. Nobody knows, and if they claim they do, they're nuts as well as stupid. You lock up the car and walk off into the wilds anywhere, and all bets are off. Once you're out of shouting distance of the parking lot, anything can happen, and has happened to some people. Mother nature can be a bitch, and mankind ain't that much better. I'm fine with lugging a pound or two extra when I'm off the pavement someplace. If I don't need it, fine. But if I ever do again need it like I needed it that Sunday morning years ago, I want it there, not back home because i'm afraid the little extra weight may slow me down.

I don't have a very high opinion of people like Colin Fletcher and other guru's like him. There was a major flaw in his logic. He presumed because he was backpacking, he didn't need a fixed blade. Yet his pack weight wasn't light. He carried all kinds of crap like camera and binoculars and note pads and just stuff that was a bit silly. But…hey, ti's a free country, go carry what you like. Just don't push the guru's kool-aid to people who don't drink that brand. I personally think Fletcher was a sell out. A commercial sell out. How many versions of his book made him millions? The Complete Walker? The Complete Walker 2? The complete Walker 3? The Complete Walker 27? A few minor changes and another printing, and lots more money. Every time he came out with another "revision" the faithful would ante up an buy it. And all the guru's of that era and on into the 80's preached the same BS. It was like a religion or cult. All the hippy backpackers had on the same clothing, the same packs, the same brands that the backpacking guru of choice preached. It got a little silly, and often crossed over the border into obnoxious.

No, the hippy backpacker is a valid label for some types you run into on the A.T. If they want to go through the woods with naught but a Vic classic, fine. But that's not my choice. I'll carry what I like, because my life's experience has taught me that it's a real bite in the ass to need it and not have it. I haven't been in a shootout on the trail either, but I'm not leaving the small pistol home either. There are still Gary Hilton's out there, and mother nature can still be a bitch on very short notice. I haven't had a flat tire in twenty years, but I'm not about to jettison the spare tire to save a little weight and get another little bit of gas milage.

 

[GREENJACKET]

Most of the modern sports of trekking, mountaineering, or even a walk in the park, do not require much knife. Most of the world has a well beaten track to follow. Food, water, shelter, and cooking fire are supplied from the "camping/sports" shop. Highly technical stuff it is too.

Then there is the Bushcraft and Survival followers. Self reliance is the catch word. The ethos revolves around a lot of "knife" and gaining individual skills.
All the above rely on base camp civilisation. Bushcraft is an old skills based experience and often as a means to keep old traditional skills going. Survival, to survive long enough to get back to civilisation.

Non are farming. Farming is what keeps us fed and is an industry requiring large resources that no single individual can do on their own.

We are on a Bladeforum site because we like knives. Non surprising members have their idea what works, and are very loyal to them. Just gets me how inflexible we all are.
There is no place for a Junglas above the tree line, high mountain, ski touring. Not much need for trekking well trodden paths either. In the more defined Bushcrafing or Survival world then sure its an option.
If your minimalist camping includes all the sports kit you need then not much knife is needed so a quality folder or even a fixed Mora will be more than adiquate. If your minimalist camping is Bushctafty and based around a wool blanket then more knife may well be desirable. If you go camping to dick around in the woods to play with your knify stuff then you may well take a barrow load of cutting tools.
But all of it is based around the fact civilisation is never far away. A safety whistle and mobile phone, and the fact you have told people where you have gone and will be missed if you don't return for tea is protection enough. The knife part is just for the fun of it. For real work, as in farming, then most tools have an engine attached.

 

[leghog]

On the trail, I mostly just carry a SAK.

 

[herisson]

Self reliance is the word. A fixed blade knife belongs here, I think. Not dissing capable folders but I will always go for a fixed blade.

 

[Ramrodmb]

I dont understand the logic of carrying stoves, fuel, lighter fluid and other heavy liquids, then worrying about a few ounces on a fixed blade.