Minimalistic long-term/indefinate wilderness living

Kirk D · May 10, 2003

You mention of your "wilderness survival/living for a long-term or indefinate period of time".

I've thought about that in nearly 40 years (when I was 10 years old, in New Orleans, and news and school talked about nuclear bomb from Cuba/Russia). So I've always felt of "long-term" (several years) or "indefinate" (to the end of my life).

Yeah..., some people say survival needs only the clothing that's on you, and (maybe) a knife. If it's nice and warm, with adequate bugs and snakes and turtles and take time to make a nice shelter and such..., maybe... But I felt a little different.., when it's winter, at night at 9pm in rain and around 32(or less) degrees and some wind..., and I want a lot more than just a knife.

YoYoMa's gear sounded fairly decent (though I'd prefer "Strike Force" or "Blast ---" instead of just flint, and a little better (probably somewhat larger) pot, and a bit more cord (300".., or 600", or 900"). And I'd add a tarp (5'x7', at least.., preferably 8'x10' or 10'x10'), and I'd REALLY, REALLY prefer a .22 rifle and 1000 rounds (or way more, preferably). I'd prefer my Kimber SVT with Leopold and 3 magazines. I do admit, though, that 1000 rds. of .22 weighs 15 lbs, so weight is a problem.

And..., yeah, I LOVE knives, so I'd add an extra one or two more!!!

thatmguy · May 11, 2003

Originally posted by Angus McGunnigl
Pretend that your right arm is busted and do abunch of it with your weak hand.

Lemme tell ya, last summer, fell and broke my arm in 3 spots, screwed up the ligaments, etc.

Be sure you have weak-hand skills. Try tying knots, cutting fuzz-sticks, and the whole host of things you assume you'll be able to do strong handed.

It is a real eye opener when you don't have to count on those skills to stay alive.

Do it now.

Mike

backpacker · May 12, 2003

I am with Kirk. If you are talking long term survival you are going to need food. Plants are good, bugs are good, fishing is good, but you need to bring a rifle like a 22 for small and medium size game ( and in a pinch even a head shot close-up on a deer). In a short term survival situation, food is not that important, but in a long term situation it is very important. Give yourself some options. Also, bringing a dozen medium and large professional grade snares would make things a lot easier also. In the 1800 & 1900s most of the long term mountain men were trappers. They always had a rifle with them too.

dartanyon · May 12, 2003

I like this thread ...... lots of options ......I recon a good blade, survival kit, cook pot, rope and protective clothing are just a few things needed.
Perhaps a drill bit, tough plastic bags, mini telescope and mobile phone are just a few extras. What about my girlfriend?
And theres the environment to consider? Will she need toilet paper

a_punker · May 12, 2003

What about my girlfriend?

yep, even with cold, numb, useless limbs; In a stupor of hunger and tiredness, the wife would be able to nag me into collecting some more firewood!

. . . what could you do with a drill bit btw?

YoYoMa · May 12, 2003

Originally posted by backpacker
I am with Kirk. If you are talking long term survival you are going to need food. Plants are good, bugs are good, fishing is good, but you need to bring a rifle like a 22 for small and medium size game ( and in a pinch even a head shot close-up on a deer). In a short term survival situation, food is not that important, but in a long term situation it is very important. Give yourself some options. Also, bringing a dozen medium and large professional grade snares would make things a lot easier also. In the 1800 & 1900s most of the long term mountain men were trappers. They always had a rifle with them too.

I forgot several metres of snare wire; that won't take up a lot of space.

About hunting game: that's what the bow is for.

allenC · May 12, 2003

This thread is good food for thought.
Your kit sounds well thought out too.

But beware that snares are illegal in alot of places.

pict · May 12, 2003

If you are living off the land in the lower 48 you will most likely break just about every game law on the books or you will starve. Now I'm not advocating such behavior but hungry men and driven to desperate measures and grouse season tends to befar less of a consideration than "can I make the shot?", as the stomach growls in hearty support of your will and determination to fill it. Hunger is the best sauce, but it is also it's own logic and rationalization.

The first time you pop an out-of-season brook trout with a 9mm you are no longer a virgin. (aim low)Mac

marsupial · May 12, 2003

It all sounds good on paper util you get real sick or real hurt and then it aint fun no more.An 18 - 40 year old would probably do well anytime after that years of wilderness living would take its toll on your body.It unrealistic to believe you could stay your entire life without some contact with the civilized world.

psy-ops · May 12, 2003

marsupial your post is thought provoking.

I agree that an average modern man living in the wilderness and thriving is unrealistic.

but not too long ago it was not only realistic but it was reality.

now we have to overcome so much we have really lost alot of natural skills.

pict · May 12, 2003

chrisaloia,

I don't think it is a matter if lost skills but lost habitat. When man "lived off the land" the land he was living off had a natural abundance that we can hardly imagine. There was much more of it in every aspect than what you see today.

Besides that most native peoples were farmers to one dergree or another. When their crops failed or they were driven away by war they viewed it as a hardship to "live off the land". They did it to a degree that amazed the white man but it was still hard on them when they couldn't grow their staple crops.

Mankind is a subsistence farmer even in places like the Amazon which produces more vegitation and animal life per square kilometer than any other place on earth. Reality is far from the myth that native peoples live in harmony with nature. They beat the crap out of nature wherever they go. The only reason the forest recovers from them is that it is so vast that they just move on to deplete a differnt area and the old location grows back eventually.

We can no longer do that in North America because our forests are a fraction of what they were in terms of size and natural abundance. You are not in the same place. Mac

backpacker · May 12, 2003

This post addressed long term Wilderness living. Very few pioneers went out with just a few items. How long term is your definition of long term? Can you replace your bow strings and arrows in the field?

Long term changes the whole equation when preparing. One of the most overlooked areas of long term survival is hygiene. To go long term you must be a master of all areas of survival. Very few people have this type of knowledge. I think the longest Ron Hood has been out is probably 1 month (that's a long time, but still not long term living). Maybe Ron can chime in here with a few of his thoughts.

dartanyon · May 13, 2003

a_punker

From my personal tests at survival I have found a 1/2 inch drill bit with a ring welded to the top, very useful for making tools, gadgets and shelters. It minimises the amout of cord required and helps to make strong reliable joints.

As for for the long term thing ...... I just can't help thinking about medical problems.

And what if you just happened to stumble onto a crap load of gold??????

Cliff Stamp · May 13, 2003

YoYoma, some comments :

-Knife (In my case, a Buck 119) with sharpening stone

Get a small fixed blade instead. It will clean easier, be more ergonomic and secure in hand, and there are no little parts to break or jam. Consider using both with injured or tired. An A.G. Russell Woodswalker or Swamp Rat Howling Rat are two quality choices, one more slanted for cutting efficiency and the other for overall versatility. The only folder I would consider for such use would be the Megaladon by Arlee Niemi. Easy to open and close even with less than full function. And the lock is the strongest and most secure on the market, and the least likely to get fouled with debris.

-med. sized GB axe (carry on belt or on pack)

Get a decent sized knife and a small quality saw, Felco pruning saw and Swamp Rat Camp Tramp. This will be a much more versatile and efficient combination. The longer blade givs you much more reach and productivity when trimming brush, and combined with the saw will fell and buck wood much easier than the axe, of a size you need to cut to build a shelter or fuel a fire.

-flint and steel, in pouch on belt

Consider as well decent matches for emergencies. Get windproof, strike anywheres if you can.

-bow, arrows and quiver

Large game isn't overly realistic. A decent slingshot is much better for small animals, and amunition is easy to find.

-needle and a whack of dental floss

Is the needle for stitching a wound or just clothing and such. If it is a wound then it requires a much smaller needle, the finest sewing needle you can find, this will break readily on thicker fabrics. You will want more than one in any case. You will also need a set of pliars (carry a decent multitool) to pull the needle through your skin (it is very difficult), and since cuts on the hand are likely you will want something to weight the other end of the line down to tie the knots, a clamp of some kind would be nice. Most cuts don't need to be stitched though will benefit from it. You can also buy steri-strips to hold small cuts when not on active joints, and prefab some out of duct tape if necessary.

-decent first aid kit, with lots of iodine (antiseptic, water purification)

I would include a supply of Celtic Sea salt and raw honey infused with bee pollen and royal jelly. On their own these supply essentical minerals, vitamins, fats and proteins, plus can be used to season and preserve food and don't spoil. They also have a host of other uses such as preventing infection, treating sores, and being used to bait traps.

-100 to 200 ft. of paracord

and some bailing wire .

-fishing hooks & line

It is not trivial to catch fish even in water you are familiar with and you have all the gear you want. Yes it may help, but have reasonable expectations. They have a lot of other uses though and are fairly flexible tools.

-compass

Learn to do navigation otherwise as well, a watch and the sun for example.

-SAS survial guide, and a couple Ray Mears Books

All the basics you should know, if you have to look it up then you are in trouble as the details can be a killer - get some experience with the basics. Reference works are best very particular ones like which plants you can eat and snakes/insects that are poisonous.

In addition :

-a small mirror with a sighting hole

Besides signaling, the mirror allows you to start fires, possible scare away animals, and very importantly be used to check parts of your body that you can't directly see for abrasions and debris, getting something out of your eye for example.

I would also consider :

-a small cast iron pot or thick skillet

Yes this is a lot heavier than most other choices but it the most healthy to cook with, actually providing a cource of iron. It is also the most durable and next to impossible to damage even if you are hurt, injured or subject to loss of dextirity due to cold. It also provides a possible source of iron oxide (rust) which can be eaten and used as a coloring agent and a mild abrasive.

-a quality solid pen and a decent note pad

The pen, besides being a writing instrument, has a host of other uses. Take it apart and you have two tubes, springs a small clip etc. . A really thick and solid pen has enough strength to be very functional for a number of non-pen line activities. The pad allows you to taken notes on locations, animal citings, as well as a journal, list of necessary activities - all of which will keep you on focus.

-Cliff

YoYoMa · May 13, 2003

Originally posted by Cliff Stamp
YoYoma, some comments :

Get a small fixed blade instead. It will clean easier, be more ergonomic and secure in hand, and there are no little parts to break or jam. Consider using both with injured or tired. An A.G. Russell Woodswalker or Swamp Rat Howling Rat are two quality choices, one more slanted for cutting efficiency and the other for overall versatility. The only folder I would consider for such use would be the Megaladon by Arlee Niemi. Easy to open and close even with less than full function. And the lock is the strongest and most secure on the market, and the least likely to get fouled with debris.

You're thinking of the Buck 110. The 119 is the classic 6" fixed blade.

Thanks for the detailed response.

Cliff Stamp · May 13, 2003

Yes exactly was I pictured. That Buck fixed blade is a common pattern here, with that carried you don't have as much need for a longer blade and thus the axe would be a more suitable choice. However in general I would prefer a much smaller knife and a much longer one and a saw. But quality mid range knives are solid choices as well.

-Cliff

allenC · May 13, 2003

I think sometimes we have an unrealistic view of primitive living.
I don't think any primitive person ever willingly chose to live with only the bare essentials.
From what I've read and learned, those who lived in the wilds for long periods of time carried all the supplies that they could get their hands on.
This is why backpacks were created by man--so he could carry more stuff.
Not to mention the use of pack animals like mules and camels to carry even more stuff.

I also don't think men are supposed to live alone in seclusion. Even the most primitive peoples of the world formed tribes, clans, or extended families.
In fact, I would even venture to say that the more primitive the living conditions, the more you need others to help you survive.

Carl Theile · May 13, 2003

This is an excellent thread, with some very significant contributions- none of which should be discounted. Each should be given serious thought. I spent four winter months alone in the woods with "minimalist" gear. Some things are real hard to come by, like salt, fat, and medicine. After the first week, the diarreha will begin to go away, but stomach cramps, cracked hands, feet and lips, general body crud (read: hygene) become a serious problem. After the first month, if you've been lucky and/or skilled enough to eat well- and have avoided all of the pitfalls associated with that, you begin to stabilize physically. Mental issues now become the problem. We are highly socialized (yes, even us loners) and need social input as well as social outlet. The temptation to terminate your self-imposed exile becomes significant. You need reasons to stay isolated and you had best have some or you will "go to town". I had reasons- good reasons- but when I heard the noise of a distant chain-saw, I really wanted to go there. I did not.

One of my teeth abcessed. I had not planned on that. Eating became excruciating and the pain never went away. I did not sleep. I physically deteriorated. Though I did not know this at the time, abcessed teeth can kill you. I got past the pain, learning to live with it and saw the end of my second month. I was cold from then on, only getting warm briefly by the fire. There were four serious storms in the third month and all food seemed to have vanished. I got by on fish and wild onions, and the pain in my jaw suddenly disappeard. By the end of the third month I had lost a lot of weight, but felt pretty good.

My clothes were all but rotten, I itched everywhere, socks and underwear were distant memories, but I was beginning to adapt- and it was getting warmer- just a few degrees, but they were welcome. What I wanted more than anything was a peanut butter milkshake. By the end of the fourth month I believed I could survive with what skills I had. My physical condition was beginning to improve. I kept a journal during that period and my final entry reads: Never ever do this again.

I was 19 years old and in excellent health when I started- weighing 190 pounds, mostly muscle. I weighed 165 pounds when I got back to civilization. I lost two permanent teeth and spent 1 week in the hospital on antibiotics and lactated ringers. I was NOT well.
-carl

jaime · May 13, 2003

I am by no means an authority in survival or first aid, but I have done several courses on both and have a reasonable experience on them too, and I think that living with minimalistic equipment and medical sources is, so to say, reserved to a very little minority.
Even the really experienced (Bosquimans, Inuit, Yanomamis, etc.) have had a head start for living. I mean that they have been able to get all they need to live off the land... with time.
I belive you cannot entirely rely on the food you can get from the wild if there is a bad season, or build a decent camp if its raining and with heavy wind for 2 weeks or whatever adverse scenario you may think of.
On regard to the medical subject, that is very very delicate in my opinion. You must be VERY skilled and strong (in mind and body) to help yourself after being injured. If someone hesitates in what his medical kit should consist of, better take a few more courses on that.
One of the few things I think is indispensable for even a couple of day camping trip is a comprehensive ( sometimes I think too comprehensive) medical kit, but a big part of it is to assist others, because I think it would be useless for an individual alone. No poetry on medics.
This is a very nice thread, and has made me think on what would be the bare minimals I could rely on, and I am amazed on how many sherpas I would have to carry to be sure I would make it

!.
Cliff: How do you start a fire with a mirror?. Sounds great!.

marsupial · May 13, 2003

Carl,my hats off to you sir in my eyes your one tough son of a gun.Hygene is probably the most important aspect of long term survival.Being able to clean all your crevices is important and could prevent bacterial growth some of which can be deadly especially if you have any wounds.Also if you feel dirty and bad you are less likely to work hard for food or shelter,its a no brainer you do well when you feel well.I have spent several weeks out in the bush and have to be able to bathe at least once in a creek or stream if not I get the raw ass literally.Another important aspect that has been mentioned here and that is the mental aspect.You have to have a strong will in the first place to survive anything,it does not matter the circumstances.In my mind real long term minimalistic survival means having a retreat or self sufficient cabin back in the woods.Generater power with battery back up,deep well,stored food supplies,with any or all amenites one would want or have at home.Being able to hunt all day and come back to a humble cabin to use your salt,flour and cookin oil to fry up some deer,and have some canned(mason jar)green beans is tremendous.Another point overlooked is that most civilized people have such a high fat content diet that you COULD not survive on rabbit and deer without supplementing your diet with some kind of fat.Some of the early explorers died with stomachs full of rabbit because it was not high enuff in fat content to sustain them.Being clean and eating better is why we live to an average of 75 and the mountain men lived to an average of 55.All that being said it is possible for someone to do it it would just be really hard.