Minimalistic long-term/indefinate wilderness living

Marsupial-
Tough, but dumb. Hopefully I am smarter now. I like your way better.
It is easy to imagine why folks lived shorter lives then than now.
Tough don't cut it long term...
-carl
 
Carl, you have done what not too many could do. Since you have actually done a long term situation, Could you please provide a minimal list if you were to do it again?

I am very interested in your comments.
 
Yes, I'd be curious about that. I'd also be interested in what your gear was like the first time around.
 
Sure- as best I can recall...
First time, Simple list-
Tent shelter half, wool blanket, 6 inch knife FB, 100 ft paracord, tin (not aluminum) pot with cover), aluminum canteen, some wire, fishing line and hooks. Almost all gear was military "surplus". The first-aid kit was the kind typically found in government vehicles- mostly band aids, gauze, antibiotic ointment, a sling, etc. suitable for field treatment of small wounds.

The clothes on my back and one spare set of socks (levi's, levi jacket, wool shirt, stetson and good Corcoran boots- military issue.

Do this again? Not likely! Even though I was raised in the woods and we lived mostly off the land (so I have adequate skills for that) what I learned is that it CAN be done. What I also learned is that the cost is very high. It is not something one just does. Are you asking for me to speculate ...to suppose I would do it again and if so what my list would contain?
-carl
 
I honestly take off my hat too, Carl. Chapeau!.
You must be much more skilled than many of the so called survivalists.
What would you take now to do it again?.
 
jaime-
I think comparison of survival skills may be a waste of time, though I do thank you for your kind words. The issue is broader than being able to find shelter, warmth, food and water, and finding what you need when it is needed. For example, I chose my place of exile. Had I not done that, could I have succeeded? Perhaps not. The broader issue is: can a person not "wilderness tuned" reliably and repeatedly demonstrate the specific skills called for by the situation- situation to include a broad range of environments, climates, etc.

By wilderness tuned, I mean a person acclimated to this kind of living, and in sufficient physical and mental condition to sustain themselves. There are hardships uncommon to the common man in such an exercise. The simple fact is, mankind in general has softened. There are immediate remedies available for almost every discomfort from pain to cold to loneliness to hunger to thirst and most importantly, to illness. We think nothing of exercising our option to employ these remedies the moment we encounter discomfort. Part of the problem I see is contained in the fact of simply "KNOWING" a remedy exists and we have willingly isolated ourselves from it. That fact alone softens us. Ancient man had no such knowledge. He therefore was more inclined to accept a situation and move forward. An old quote I like is: "Comfort enters as your guest, remains as your host, and becomes your master". I like it for somewhat obvious reasons.

I think we should all have the requisite skills to survive a wilderness encounter of, say, two weeks. That would "prove" anything needed to be proven- not to anyone else- but to yourself. In that time you could discover things you did not know and resolve to increase your knowledge. My "exercise" did serve me well in a later incident that I did not choose. I can tell you that I was even less prepared and way more at risk, so I guess it was useful.

Were I to consider long-term living in these conditions ever again it would be with a very complete medicine kit including antibiotics and I would have a doctor who was himself skilled in wilderness medicine assist in putting it together- because I would need prescription drugs, needles, syringes, suture, hemostats, etc., and because they could anticipate things I could not. To my original gear, I would add (for a 4 month stay) 4 pair sox- wool, 5 lbs of lard, 20 lbs of salt, 20 lbs of carbohydrate (like rice), some spices, 2 pounds antibacterial soap, some lye (for use in brain-tanning hides, (yes, I know it can be manufactured)), an axe and saw and better knife, ferrocium rod, and a survival rifle- like a .22/410, ammo (not much, really), some cheap lotion high in lanolin, and a close friend who had proven skills (of the opposite sex would be nice :D ).

You may find my choices interesting- even a bit odd. But those are my choices. :)
-carl
 
Those are great choices Carl,and I too would like to have a companion of the opposite sex.Only problem with that would be all the whinin and complainin ,you would need special survival training for that alone.Women also require "extra" ammenities and hygene is much more imprtant for many factors.Another important point is for her to have plenty of birth control,the last thing you would want would be a pregnancy.Of course she would probably cut you off till you took er to the mall so that may not be a factor:D .It would be hard for me to list all my gear I would have but it to would be along the line of the basics such as flour,sugar, SALT(very important),corn meal,lard or cooking oil.Basic hunting,fishing gear,Rifles and shotguns,Extra gas for machines,A REAL FAK,and barter items such as whiskey,or extra ammo,batteries,etc...All of my points are based from a homestead point of view.Real basic survival is almost always short term.I spent 4 days in the Amazon with nothing but a knife and I can tell you it would have been alot nicer with some salt and flour,but a real learning experience.I could have went onfor much longer,but it would have been tough once it got over a month or more with no soaps or toothbrushes.You got to have a "base" of operations or a cache if you will of supplies and extra gear.
 
Thanks for the info Carl!.
When I wrote those words I was thinking that many people would be able to make it for a couple of weeks, but not for such a long time. I myself found the forums looking for advice on a knife that could serve me extraordinarily well in a situation I was likely to encounter, and I am absolutely sure I can live off the land for a relatively short period. The thing is that the disconforts I may suffer can be fatal in an extended period of time.
My point boils down to this: you must do very very well in a short period to be able to make it in a long period (I hope it is clear :confused: ). That is why I say you must be a very skilled man, because for a few days being only tough is enough. Chapeau again!.
I also think that people in general don´t have any more a will to hold up. We have lost most of the toughness that we have had for ages, and most of the knowledge too. I supose that enduring the cold is easier when you have endured the cold since birth.
 
Homo sapiens are different to the rest of the animal kingdom because they manipulate and adapt their surroundings to themselves, rather than vice versa.

I believe in evolution, and i believe that as the apes learned to do that manipultaing and adapting they evolved into men. primitive man never was just 'punged' into the wilderness and forced to survive.

So, by the time that recogniseable civilisations came to be (Bosquimans, Inuit, Yanomamis. . . as Jamie mentioned) they had generations of prepareed resources enabling them to live permanently off the land. Farmland, herds, tribes.

Even early woodsmen and mountain men were only pioneers from stable societies. They left for the hills with provisions, and could resupply and trade for provisions. If they didn't do this then they too farmed and kept live stock.

So, this thread won't find out how to live permantntly in the bush 'with hardly any kit', because i think its impossible, but just how long can ppl survive?
 
Originally posted by a_punker
I believe in evolution...

Even without proof? Did you know that of the 12 "transitional" forms between ape and man that we see in those drawings everywhere, all of them have either been shown to be whole ape, whole man, or a hoax (Like "Nebraska Man," which was constucted around nothing but a pig's tooth).

I'll quote Dr. Steven Gold, an evolutionist:

"The extreme ratiry of transitional forms in the fossil record persists as the trade secret of paleontology. The evolutionary trees that adorn out textbooks have data only at the tips and nodes of their branches; the rest is inference, however reasonable, not on the evidence of fossils. Yet Darwin was so wedded to gradualism that he wagered his entire theory on a denial of this literal record: The geological resord is ectremely imperfect and this fact will to a large ectent explain why we do not find interminable varieties, connecting together all the extinct and existing forms of life by the finest graduated steps. He who rejects these views on the nature of the geological record, will rightly reject my whole theory."

The truth is, not a single proven transitional form has ever been found. Even hopefuls like the bird/lizard have been discredited by evolutionists themselves. As you can see by the above quote, evolution is actually a matter of faith: there is no rock-solid proof, but the scientists believe in it anyway, and thus huge arbitrary assumptions are created about the fossil record, etc., with no scientific back-up, while all the while they are touted as "fact."

Okay, rant mode off. Sorry.

By the way, this is a great thread.
 
a_punker-
So, this thread won't find out how to live permantntly in the bush 'with hardly any kit', because i think its impossible, but just how long can ppl survive?

This point has two parts. For the first, IMHO, people CAN live permanently in the bush with hardly any kit. It is more unlikely than impossible, but it has been done- to at least MY satisfaction. I think the real question to ask is: what would be the quality of that life? (FWIW, today that life is lookin' real attractive to me ...it is just one of those days :D :D ).

For the second part, I think the answer depends upon the variety of foods available, the skill with which they are sought and acquired, and the absence of medical issues. Balanced diets can be achieved in the bush. Medicine can be found in the bush. Given proper skills, the answer is FOR A LIFETIME . The problem is, absent those skills you will get the same answer: FOR A LIFETIME. And I think the point has already been made that the duration of a lifetime is way shorter in the bush than in civilization. I also think the major contributor to lives being shorter in the bush than in civilization is that it is so much harder (wear and tear) coupled with the absence of remedies for some of the things that can kill you (like infection).
-carl
 
YoYoMa,

I agree. This is a survival forum. If you believe in evolution, are you not conceding to non-survival? And if evolution is a practice of faith, why would you not put your faith in eternal salvation (eternal survival). Seems to be better than being just worm food
 
Originally posted by backpacker
YoYoMa,

I agree. This is a survival forum. If you believe in evolution, are you not conceding to non-survival? And if evolution is a practice of faith, why would you not put your faith in eternal salvation (eternal survival). Seems to be better than being just worm food

Naturally. I always open up my anti-evolution dialogues on a scientific note. It is important to establish that on a strictly scientific, facutal level, evolution is a total gong show, before we then show that faith is the answer. In other words, we must establish the absolute need for a designer or creator, in the language of those who deny this need, before we introduce someone to said designer and creator.

On an other point, while I heartily oppose evolution, I disagree with the notion that believing in it is a concession to non-survival. Rather, "survival of the fittest" could potentially act as a motivator for someone to pursue such things as we discuss here. Just food for thought.
 
YoYoMama - Yes, I'm quite aware that evolution is a theory, but its one that i subscribe to. I also believe that one can be an evolutionist and a christian at the same time. . .but this is all heavy stuff, and i'd prefer to keep to the topic as it really is a great thread.

You see, it occurred to me, after reading some posts about how civilized, or modern man eats and lives, that perhaps there really was something different about our ancestors who lived in the bush with no kit - a tolerance to eat different plants, different fat/muscle/stature(body surface area), etc. So i threw it into the discussion.

Perhaps i went too far though. I bet a "wash'n'wear fur coat" would've done Carl some good during his experiment ;):p
 
YOYOMa,

I would add more 550 cord to your list, can't have enough of this stuff in the wilds. I would also take along two survival fishing Gill nets with your fishing gear. Add a backup compass to your kit. Compasses break, so a backup helps out. I am in the Army Infantry and I learned that along time ago and it has payed off several times. What is your plans for long term water purification? Last I would add a saw of some kind, large like the sawvivor!
 
Clothes -

Carl mentioned that his (mostly heavy cotton) clothes didn't really match up to the great outdoors.

Question: What would??!

poeples living in cold climates wear hide - seal or reindeer skin. I've even seen science and journlistic explorers thow away the 'gucci' kit they traveled with in favour of traditional get up.

D'ya reckon its because of its availability, durability or purely warmth?
 
a_punker
I've gone to wool inner, with predominantly cotton outter (read: Filson Tin coat/pants/hat for winter wear). In the original trip I'd planned on going through it with normal daily wear- stuff I'd most likely be wearing when the plane crashed or some disaster struck.

I own lots of synthetic stuff (capilene, down, goretex, fleece, etc.) but none offer me the durability I'd want for long-term use. With an Icebreaker (New Zealand) merino wool inner, covered by virgin wool middle layer and a treated cotton outter (waxed) I'll say you could go the distance with temps down to 20F or so. Adding another layer of heavy wool gets you to zero degrees F.

Hides are great, but you don't start there. Those come with time in the bush and the skill to tan them properly. Getting a bear would be great for fat, meat, and fur ...
-carl
 
I noticed in you picture of outdoor gear that you had a very cool cook pot. Where can I get my mitts on that bad boy??

It's perfect! It's hard to find a good pot with a bail anymore.
 
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