Modern GEC Hybrid Line

Staple, I think your main problem here is not the idea itself, but the delivery. You basically said "Hey guys, know those knives you love? Wouldn't it be cool if we made them look different, made them out of different materials, changed the way they were manufactured, and sold them for double what you're paying now?" Of course the reaction is going to be negative. If you go to General and start a thread saying you'd like a Spyderco that has a blade half the size of their normal runs, no pocket clip, you have to use two hands to open, and is manufactured in such a way that if this line fails Spyderco would be bankrupt you'd probably get a similar response.

Saying that a traditional using modern materials should be able to be produced at the same price as a ZT shows a complete lack of understanding and respect for what goes into manufacturing a traditional slipjoint. You started this all off by invoking the name of GEC. You say that you love the GECs that you have. Why do GECs cost so much more than an equivalent Case that uses comparable materials? I just did a quick check and see that ZT has a flipper made of similar materials to the Sebenza, same blade steel and handle material, and it costs 20% of what the Sebenza costs. Why do Sebenzas cost so much more than an equivalent ZT? You need to go figure that one out before you can even think about comparing the cost of a GEC to a ZT. If you want a good product churned out cheaply take a look at how Rough Rider does things. They can pump out quality knives using similar materials to GEC at 10% of the price. How are they doing that? Could they adapt that process to modern materials? Would that be a product that would be desirable? How is ZT making knives so much less expensive than Chris Reeve? Is their process adaptable to slipjoint knives? Would that be a product that's desirable? These are questions that would need to be answered before you can make the assertion that ZT making a knife out of certain materials for a specific price point means that a slipjoint could be made out of those materials and hit that same price point. A Sebenza and a ZT have a lot more in common than a ZT and a GEC do.

I don't hate your idea. It's not for me, but I'm not staunchly against it. Your approach however, needs serious work before you're going to be taken seriously. As others have recommended, do some research so that you can speak intelligently on the topic. Figure out why it's not already being done and what it would take to make it happen. Come back with a realistic plan of action and you might be able to rally the troops. It's still an uphill battle, but people will listen to somebody that knows what they're talking about. At this point you have a wishlist and are asking other people to go to somebody that they respect and tell them that you should get everything on your wishlist. Bill Howard isn't Santa Claus. He's a business man who happens to be very good at what he does. Business men form business plans. They don't work off of wishlists. Do the leg work and try again. You'll either find out that this whole idea isn't feasible or you'll come back with some good ideas that people might actually be able to get behind.
 
There's a lot of wisdom in that post Cory :thumbup:

supratentorial said:
Eventually, people will no longer be satisfied with super steels and we'll need new extra super steels. :p

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LOL! :D

I can remember when 440C was considered a 'super steel' (not sure exactly when it fell from grace!) Heck, there are probably folks here who can remember when STEEL was considered 'super steel'! :D I have knives made from 'super steel', but most of the time I struggle to remember exactly WHAT 'super steel'! ;)
 
Jack Black said:
There's a lot of wisdom in that post Cory :thumbup:



LOL! :D

I can remember when 440C was considered a 'super steel' (not sure exactly when it fell from grace!) Heck, there are probably folks here who can remember when STEEL was considered 'super steel'! :D I have knives made from 'super steel', but most of the time I struggle to remember exactly WHAT 'super steel'! ;)
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:D Last time I looked we were using this >>>

All the talk back then was, Flint is sharper, no, Obsidian is sharper:rolleyes::D

Best regards

Robin

 
Pipeman said:
Gec had a mission when they opened, to make great old timey knives out of Traditional materials. They tweeked, massaged,
Listened and loved the business to what it is today, WHY the heck would they change it?????
I'm an old curmudgeon so I get to say this > "supersteel shmupersteel".:D
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I won't be upset if GEC sticks to what they're doing. I love their knives. The only reason I mentioned GEC at all is because we all know we can trust their products. The same can't be said for a lot of their competition.
 
supratentorial said:
Eventually, people will no longer be satisfied with super steels and we'll need new extra super steels. :p

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I have some of those. They work great.

Really, I prefer what I guess could be called sidekick steels? Not the untra high end stuff, but mid level. Like VG-10. Almost as good as the super steels, but MUCH easier to sharpen.
 
ATwistedStaple said:
I have some of those. They work great.

Really, I prefer what I guess could be called sidekick steels? Not the untra high end stuff, but mid level. Like VG-10. Almost as good as the super steels, but MUCH easier to sharpen.
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:D You're a good sport Twisted.

Best regards

Robin
 
Cory Hess said:
Saying that a traditional using modern materials should be able to be produced at the same price as a ZT shows a complete lack of understanding and respect for what goes into manufacturing a traditional slipjoint. You started this all off by invoking the name of GEC. You say that you love the GECs that you have. Why do GECs cost so much more than an equivalent Case that uses comparable materials? I just did a quick check and see that ZT has a flipper made of similar materials to the Sebenza, same blade steel and handle material, and it costs 20% of what the Sebenza costs. Why do Sebenzas cost so much more than an equivalent ZT? You need to go figure that one out before you can even think about comparing the cost of a GEC to a ZT. If you want a good product churned out cheaply take a look at how Rough Rider does things. They can pump out quality knives using similar materials to GEC at 10% of the price. How are they doing that? Could they adapt that process to modern materials? Would that be a product that would be desirable? How is ZT making knives so much less expensive than Chris Reeve? Is their process adaptable to slipjoint knives? Would that be a product that's desirable? These are questions that would need to be answered before you can make the assertion that ZT making a knife out of certain materials for a specific price point means that a slipjoint could be made out of those materials and hit that same price point. A Sebenza and a ZT have a lot more in common than a ZT and a GEC do.
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Actually, I'd have to argue that your comment proves your own lack of understanding. The main difference between a ZT and a slipjoint is in the way it's constructed. Yes, a slipjoint is more laborious to put together in a quality way. Pinned and peened vs. simply screwed together. GEC has already proven however that this process can be done in a timely, cost efficient manner and there's no reason to change it. If you had to peen over pins made of Elmax or M390 I'm sure the cost would go through the roof, but there's no reason to do that. Liners and pins could still be made of brass or mild stainless steel. The sping doesn't need to be made of anything special either, just a stainless steel so as to match to blade coloration.

Other knife makers have already chimed in and stated that working with the modern handle materials is no more difficult or expensive than working with traditional ones. You'll also have less waste with synthetic materials.

So the real issue is the new blade steel which will require a change in the way the blade blanks are created. For limited runs by a manufacturer that uses a much milder steel, the extra time spent is extremely costly, but for a company that produces blades solely of this type the increase isn't nearly as dramatic. The initial investment is higher, but production cost won't be.

So yeah, I think if GEC(just using them as an example) can produce a high quality production slip joint often for under $100 I think another dedicated company would be able to make a similar product with modern handle material and blade steel for around the $200 mark.
 
Pipeman said:
:D Last time I looked we were using this >>>

All the talk back then was, Flint is sharper, no, Obsidian is sharper:rolleyes::D

Best regards

Robin

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Great work Robin! Beautifully hafted and your leather work is Top Notch! I need some sheaths made for some fixed knives I am making, will contact you when I complete the designs. ;):D
 
It would be interesting to hear from some of the custom knifemakers who hand produce modern hybrids. I wonder if they have ever thought about scaling up their shop or selling/licensing a design to a major producer?
 
ATwistedStaple said:
Actually, I'd have to argue that your comment proves your own lack of understanding. The main difference between a ZT and a slipjoint is in the way it's constructed. Yes, a slipjoint is more laborious to put together in a quality way. Pinned and peened vs. simply screwed together.
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A main point of my post was that ZTs and GECs are constructed very differently, and that's why you can't say that ZT using a material to hit a price point means that GEC can use the same material to hit the same price point. It has very little to do with peening. They are fundamentally different knives. They function in completely different ways. Screwing together a GEC doesn't give you a knife that's similar to a ZT. I agree that I have little understanding of the knife industry. I've never had a job in the knife industry. The fact that somebody that admittedly knows very little can find huge flaws in your reasoning should give you pause.

ATwistedStaple said:
GEC has already proven however that this process can be done in a timely, cost efficient manner and there's no reason to change it.
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I'm curious to know what your standard is for timely and cost efficient. GEC has somewhere in the ballpark of 20 employees, and their goal is to pump out 80 knives a day. That works out to 4 knives per person employed per day. KAI has 250 employees. I called them up to find out how many knives they make a day/year (that's the research part we were talking about). They didn't have an exact number that they'd share with me, but they did say that it's in the tens of thousands. Even assuming that it's only ten thousand knives a day, they're still pumping them out at a rate of 40 knives per person employed per day. What that tells me is that the payroll costs built into a GEC knife are going to be at least 10 times that of an average KAI knife. That's assuming that everybody at KAI is making as much as the employees at GEC, which I doubt. There are also fixed costs that stay consistent regardless of production. Their building costs and taxes, for example, are going to be much higher per unit shipped than KAI. That has to be worked into the price of the knives. The cost of equipment that can work with those materials has to be built into the price of the knives. GEC is currently working on old Schrade equipment, from what I understand. Buying new is going to cost a lot more than buying at a bankruptcy auction.

Regardless of everything I wrote, you seem to have your mind made up. You know that it would be easy for a manufacturer to make this product in a cost effective way, and that there is a market waiting to buy this product at a price that would prove profitable. I don't understand why there's even a discussion at this point. You have two options. You can either start your company and rake in the dough or you can give your million dollar idea to an established manufacturer and just reap the rewards as a customer. Neither of those options requires a conversation that includes me. I wish you luck on your endeavor.

EDIT: Just to be clear, there are no hard feelings and no hostility whatsoever was meant in my post. I just don't see this conversation going anywhere until the idea is fleshed out a little. Until then it's all academic, and I feel that that avenue has been thoroughly explored. I honestly meant it when I said good luck. Hopefully we'll be seeing this line in the coming years.
 
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Oh, I see what you're saying. You're right, there's no way they could pump out the same volume that ZT does in a quality, traditional format. Probably with any material. I was thinking more along the lines of GEC's volume. Maybe a little higher, but certainly not on the same scale as ZT.

Remember too, that my definition of "affordable" for these knives is around the $200 mark, so there is still a significant increase in price of a traditional production traditional.
 
ATwistedStaple said:
Oh, I see what you're saying. You're right, there's no way they could pump out the same volume that ZT does in a quality, traditional format. Probably with any material. I was thinking more along the lines of GEC's volume. Maybe a little higher, but certainly not on the same scale as ZT.

Remember too, that my definition of "affordable" for these knives is around the $200 mark, so there is still a significant increase in price of a traditional production traditional.
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I think Cory is pointing out that the cost per unit is significantly higher for GEC than ZT. You've stated that if ZT can do it then GEC can, too. Cory has explained why that's not true. You seem to have focused on the volume, but whether GEC can do what you want at the price point you claim is an open question; you are just assuming it's possible.

As he said, you seem to have your mind made up. I think most posters wish you success in your quest, but please try to understand the pessimism. Frankly, you've not provided any reason, other than your opinions, to think otherwise.
 
Baby steps first. As an experiment, see if you can get GEC to produce a run of TC Barlows in 440C. You might have to finagle Charlie into it since I think he controls the SFOs for that design.

If you can get something as relatively simple as getting GEC to make one of their most popular patterns in a steel they already use, then maybe you can move on to the next level of S35VN with iridescent fiberglass scales. :)

For the record, put me down for a pre-order of that TC Barlow in 440C. Your choice of handles, I'll take it. ;)
 
Guys, slipjoints vs zt vs whatever doesn't matter. Heck, even 1095 vs M390 isn't that big a deal to manufacturers. Would you want to hand grind them? Nah, but in house double disk grinding is that expensive and there are several places in the U.S. that do it. A run of 200 minimum is standard. It might be hard to hit the $200 mark, but maybe not either. It would be easy to have parts blanked and ground, then assembled and finished by hand by workers. Would it fit GEC's business model, no. That is where you went wrong. But I'm with you on everything else.

A TC Barlow with S35VN blade and bone handles would be fun.
 
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