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By the way, Dave, that "tiny snowflake" in your first pic is just too much! The others are neat, too, but that first one....
John
John
-
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Mosaic Damascus
- Thread starter gthouse
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wow, ok
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So, are ya'll saying a loaf billet is mosaic and a accordian cut billet isn't?
The knife below was accordian cut. Sure looks like mosaic to me
The knife below was accordian cut. Sure looks like mosaic to me
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Great thread Gary, I have always wondered what to call some of the patterns we see. Can't wait to see how this thread will go and would like to see more examples of mosaic and composite billets and a explanation why it is one or the other.
I been playing with "W" billets lately and have heard guys call the mosaic and others composite, so where would you say they would fall?
I been playing with "W" billets lately and have heard guys call the mosaic and others composite, so where would you say they would fall?
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So, are ya'll saying a loaf billet is mosaic and a accordian cut billet isn't?
The knife below was accordian cut. Sure looks like mosaic to me
Don, I think that is a composite mosaic billet.
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Some Robert Eggerling Mosaic.
Johnny
Hello Johnny,
The full page image you used here is from one of my books and
is fully copyrighted material. It is okay to use on the Forums but
this should be done only with full mention of the source...
From "The Art of Modern Custom Knifemaking" by Dr. David Darom (2006)
All the best,
David Darom (ddd)
Last edited:
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Tend to agree with Coop. This thread isn't going to go anywhere.
Bill, question- Is a composite not made up of more than 1 bar? If so does it not make Gary's loaf a mosaic composite also? It is made up of 3 of the same mosaic bars. I think there is more than one way to skin a cat and they are not all wrong.
David The photo's you posted of the mustache steel Gary accordian cut the final product. Did that no longer classify it as a Mosaic or is it just another form of it.
Coop when ya see it let me know.
Cliff
Bill, question- Is a composite not made up of more than 1 bar? If so does it not make Gary's loaf a mosaic composite also? It is made up of 3 of the same mosaic bars. I think there is more than one way to skin a cat and they are not all wrong.
David The photo's you posted of the mustache steel Gary accordian cut the final product. Did that no longer classify it as a Mosaic or is it just another form of it.
Coop when ya see it let me know.
Cliff
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Hello Cliff,
I hope Gary checks in again as he is can give the best answers
to your question...
All the best,
David Darom (ddd)
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- Oct 3, 2002
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- 12,297
Anybody look up the word, Mosaic? No mention of "tile like"
'Inlaid stone decoration'
'A surface decortion made by inlaying small pieces (as of glass or stone) to form figures or patterns. Also, design made in mosaic'
No mention of steel either
'Inlaid stone decoration'
'A surface decortion made by inlaying small pieces (as of glass or stone) to form figures or patterns. Also, design made in mosaic'
No mention of steel either
jdm61
itinerant metal pounder
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My original point was that the term mosaic may be like "hand made" or "custom" The more you try to expand or limit the definition, the more folks can argue that either is incorrect.Anybody look up the word, Mosaic? No mention of "tile like"
'Inlaid stone decoration'
'A surface decortion made by inlaying small pieces (as of glass or stone) to form figures or patterns. Also, design made in mosaic'
No mention of steel either
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Joe, I should have quoted your first post in the above. You were dead on, man!
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- 2,498
I think that as the technique was developed by bladesmiths with a vision,
among them Steve Schwarzer, they coined the term "Mosaic Damascus"
to identify it relative to other forging techniques.
Here is a classic example from the 90s, by Steve Schwarzer, and the description
of this project from my "Custom Folding Knives" book in 2003:
"Hunters Dream", 1993
Over ten years of research went into the creation of this blade with a "Mosaic Damascus"
showing a shooting scene. Shown are a hunter pointing a shot gun, his dog, a retiever, in
pointing position and quail flying in a covey. The details are astonishing, showing even the
bill on the hunter's hat, heels on his boots and the wing tip feathers on the flying birds.
What really sets this image apart from any Mosaic Damascus created to date is the tiny gun
barrel that was kept straight throughout the process, withstanding 8 months of forging!
It started by cutting the 1 1/2" (38 mm) image of the hunter, using a wire EDM machine
(Electronic Discharge Machines or "spark erosion" machines are machine tools that use an
electric arc or spark to remove metal, rather than using a cutting tool, and are capable of
great precision). This involved a lot of piercings and using many small elements shaped to
fill the holes. The hunter's image was then reduced in a five inch square bar until it was
approximately one inch tall with absolutely no distortion of the image.
This reduction process took weeks. After being reduced in size, it was joined to the dog
and bird billets that had been similarly reduced, distortion free.
The whole image was now further reduced to make it small enough to fit within the
confines of the folder's blade. The image at this point was 1/2" inch tall with no distortion.
This forging-reduction was performed under a 250 LB air hammer.
The steel was worked at a welding temperature and the pattern inside the bar was
controlled only by mentally visualizing and many years of experience.
This stage required over six months of actual forging and cutting into the billet to check
where the image was going. Curves can be tweaked on images with curved lines and still
be presentable. But here Steve had to consider the perfectly straight gun barrel, knowing
that if the gun barrel was bent or curved it would have destroyed the image.
HUNTERS DREAM is Schwarzer's finest piece of pattern work to date.
He feels that any Mosaic work should present a proper image not some distorted suggestion.
All the best,
David Darom (ddd)
among them Steve Schwarzer, they coined the term "Mosaic Damascus"
to identify it relative to other forging techniques.
Here is a classic example from the 90s, by Steve Schwarzer, and the description
of this project from my "Custom Folding Knives" book in 2003:
"Hunters Dream", 1993
Over ten years of research went into the creation of this blade with a "Mosaic Damascus"
showing a shooting scene. Shown are a hunter pointing a shot gun, his dog, a retiever, in
pointing position and quail flying in a covey. The details are astonishing, showing even the
bill on the hunter's hat, heels on his boots and the wing tip feathers on the flying birds.
What really sets this image apart from any Mosaic Damascus created to date is the tiny gun
barrel that was kept straight throughout the process, withstanding 8 months of forging!
It started by cutting the 1 1/2" (38 mm) image of the hunter, using a wire EDM machine
(Electronic Discharge Machines or "spark erosion" machines are machine tools that use an
electric arc or spark to remove metal, rather than using a cutting tool, and are capable of
great precision). This involved a lot of piercings and using many small elements shaped to
fill the holes. The hunter's image was then reduced in a five inch square bar until it was
approximately one inch tall with absolutely no distortion of the image.
This reduction process took weeks. After being reduced in size, it was joined to the dog
and bird billets that had been similarly reduced, distortion free.
The whole image was now further reduced to make it small enough to fit within the
confines of the folder's blade. The image at this point was 1/2" inch tall with no distortion.
This forging-reduction was performed under a 250 LB air hammer.
The steel was worked at a welding temperature and the pattern inside the bar was
controlled only by mentally visualizing and many years of experience.
This stage required over six months of actual forging and cutting into the billet to check
where the image was going. Curves can be tweaked on images with curved lines and still
be presentable. But here Steve had to consider the perfectly straight gun barrel, knowing
that if the gun barrel was bent or curved it would have destroyed the image.
HUNTERS DREAM is Schwarzer's finest piece of pattern work to date.
He feels that any Mosaic work should present a proper image not some distorted suggestion.
All the best,
David Darom (ddd)
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- Feb 23, 2009
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- 351
Don,Joe, I see some one took the time to use a dictionary. This thread is what happens when a bunch of knifemakers get bored with what they should be doing "making knives" and try to rewrite the dictionary with there opinions. And we all know about opinions. Everyone has one and most stink.
Cliff
Cliff
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2003
- Messages
- 395
mosaic: 1) A picture or decorative design made by setting small colored pieces, such as tile, in mortar. 2) Anything that resembles apiece of mosaic work. 4) Overlapping photographs, usualy aerial, assembled into a composite picture.
I didn't include the plant disease in the definition from The American Heritage Dictionary.
By using the first definition offered in the thread, Owen Woods precision assemblage of of individual pieces yielding a precision forged blade might be the only true mosaic steel. Forging tile together could be considered a composite technique.
Depending on which definition you chose form the dictionary there can be many ways to interpret the meaning of mosaic damascus.
I think there is a benefit in refering to end grain pattern welded steel as mosaic. I don't think it matters how you develop the pattern, as long as the end grain is displayed on the side of the finished billet.
I don't think that a laminate developed with mosaic technique makes that material a Mosaic.
If you were to take any of the fine mosaic examples in this thread and forge them regardles of the orientation where you don't see any of the end grain pattern is it still mosaic?
Is there really much difference in a jump welding of tiles and a well executed accordian.
Too me a geometeric progression is a geometerical form like a square capped on four side by right triangles of 1/4 of a secondary pattern that is not revealed until the material is reforged in a four way or 9 way. When I did the first few of these configurations I called it a geometeric progression. I would call John Davis's distortion technique a form of geometrical progression. Both of these techniques develop a progresive secondary pattern.
It would be wonderful to set down a bunch of Mosaic steel makers to write some developed definitions. This would certainly clarify some very muddy concepts. It would certainly help the collectors and public have a route to understanding the material.
I think in the fact that the dictionary lists 4 definitions of Moasic that 3 of resemble pattern development styles of different smiths, does not benefit by choosing the one that fits your style, and wanting to define the other techniques as non-mosaic.
All dictionaries periodically update and expand definitions, I think this time has come....Take care...Ed
I didn't include the plant disease in the definition from The American Heritage Dictionary.
By using the first definition offered in the thread, Owen Woods precision assemblage of of individual pieces yielding a precision forged blade might be the only true mosaic steel. Forging tile together could be considered a composite technique.
Depending on which definition you chose form the dictionary there can be many ways to interpret the meaning of mosaic damascus.
I think there is a benefit in refering to end grain pattern welded steel as mosaic. I don't think it matters how you develop the pattern, as long as the end grain is displayed on the side of the finished billet.
I don't think that a laminate developed with mosaic technique makes that material a Mosaic.
If you were to take any of the fine mosaic examples in this thread and forge them regardles of the orientation where you don't see any of the end grain pattern is it still mosaic?
Is there really much difference in a jump welding of tiles and a well executed accordian.
Too me a geometeric progression is a geometerical form like a square capped on four side by right triangles of 1/4 of a secondary pattern that is not revealed until the material is reforged in a four way or 9 way. When I did the first few of these configurations I called it a geometeric progression. I would call John Davis's distortion technique a form of geometrical progression. Both of these techniques develop a progresive secondary pattern.
It would be wonderful to set down a bunch of Mosaic steel makers to write some developed definitions. This would certainly clarify some very muddy concepts. It would certainly help the collectors and public have a route to understanding the material.
I think in the fact that the dictionary lists 4 definitions of Moasic that 3 of resemble pattern development styles of different smiths, does not benefit by choosing the one that fits your style, and wanting to define the other techniques as non-mosaic.
All dictionaries periodically update and expand definitions, I think this time has come....Take care...Ed
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- Feb 23, 2009
- Messages
- 351
Hi Ed,
Remember Hank Knickmeyer's work before powder. His deer,butterfly's and flowers. I think those were made in a true mosaic fashion. That was true artwork in my opinion.
All the best
Cliff
Remember Hank Knickmeyer's work before powder. His deer,butterfly's and flowers. I think those were made in a true mosaic fashion. That was true artwork in my opinion.
All the best
Cliff