Most balanced (toughness/wear resistance) steel?

Cobalt said:
Also forging by a master was once the way to get high quality steel because making many layers of steel by folding is how they would make a steel uniform throughout. Todays steel manufacturing and heat treating of more complex alloy steels more than compensates for that.
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Also if I understand it correctly the forging/layering was also a way for the Japanese to get rid of impurities in the ore used, as the fabled samurai sword makers started out with some pretty sxxxxy (mountains of) material to make a sword.

This is often overlooked in the manic celebration of these swords - not that I dont like them as well.

But there was a reason (necessity) for them to be manufactured in that manner and with those materials.

Again, AFAIK.
 
BladeScout said:
Also if I understand it correctly the forging/layering was also a way for the Japanese to get rid of impurities in the ore used, as the fabled samurai sword makers started out with some pretty sxxxxy (mountains of) material to make a sword.

This is often overlooked in the manic celebration of these swords - not that I dont like them as well.

But there was a reason (necessity) for them to be manufactured in that manner and with those materials.

Again, AFAIK.
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That is my understanding as well. I have owned a few Tamahagane steel blades. Vert tough stuff. IF white steel or 1060 is good enough for you then that is all that matters. This is all opinion based. Also test tables don't tell the whole story. Too many factors for edge testing to be accurate. The only way to truly compare is to get identical knives made from different materials and heat treated by the best system for each steel. Comparing different knife geometries(not just edge geometry) is totally irrelevant to developing a list of what steel is best at holding an edge.
 
I finally read some fair opinion and analysis. I doubt that some of the edge retention test published didn't tell the true picture and some of the results is partial.
For example did the test tell you about how much edge damage to the higher scores super steels and how difficult to put back the edge to these steels.
I know in the end super steel or HSS always win, but i bet many super steels would be useless after the test. That's my point. i think a good knife can be used again and again with optimal balance in edge holding and thoughness
 
Alloy are added to steel to improve its properties in some if not every way....

For instance, 1060 and 5160. The different between them are just some small amount of chromium and silicon, carbon content are basically the same.

But even that small amount of alloy do make a huge different because its will increase hardenability, toughness and spring property of the steel.
5160 will also need less severe quench media to hardened and the depth of hardening also better.

Chromium also change the property of how steel react to tempering. While both 1060 and 5160 will has very similar as-quench hardness, 5160 will remain harder at the same tempering temp.

In summary 5160 is better than 1060 in almost every aspect. Higher working hardness, tougher, more corrosion and wear resistance by slightly margin. The only thing 1060 going to do better than 5160 is it can be achieving better hamon due to the lower hardenability.
 
CPM 3V and Z- Wear are the most balanced steels in my book but the balance of wear resistance and toughness can vary greatly based on HT.

Z wear I like to take to 61 which avoids the secondary hardening curve and leaves a hard matrix with fewer carbides. Z wear at this hardness has great toughness and holds an edge really well. I think its a little more wear resistant than 3V and probably slightly less tough, at the very least it is noticeably harder to grind than 3V.

For 3V in my small blades I have historically run them very hard at 62 and austenized for higher carbide formation. This HT gives high wear resistance with still very good toughness. For big blades I run them softer at around 60 utilizing low soak temps and and low temper for lower levels of carbide formation but still high hardness.

Stuff like M4 which is the next level in wear resistance results in a noticeable and detrimental loss in toughness. 4V and V4E are bridging the gap between M4 and 3V/ Z wear but at least with 4V there is still a big tradeoff in toughness.
 
peleton blade said:
I finally read some fair opinion and analysis. I doubt that some of the edge retention test published didn't tell the true picture and some of the results is partial.
For example did the test tell you about how much edge damage to the higher scores super steels and how difficult to put back the edge to these steels.
I know in the end super steel or HSS always win, but i bet many super steels would be useless after the test. That's my point. i think a good knife can be used again and again with optimal balance in edge holding and thoughness
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This site is full of people who are exactly what you are saying "Master Smiths."

You came in saying that white steel has the best wear resistance, was the hardest, toughest, sharpest, most durable steel (if only forged by Skeletor) and were clearly wrong.

Now you are claiming white steel is superior because other harder more alloyed steels are too hard to sharpen. Well guess what bud, the reason white steel is easier to sharpen is because it is less alloyed than other higher alloy steels.

There are also steels lower grade than White that are EVEN EASIER to sharpen than white. Does this mean they are better than white? Why does the scale stop at white steel? 420j is even easier to sharpen, few would say it is "better." Also these steels are not hard to sharpen if you have experience and most importantly the right tools.

Look dude it is ok to be wrong. Read this forum due to knowledge and then you will be able to type paragraphs and not be wrong about everything. This site is full of metallurgists, American Master Bladesmith, bladesmiths who have much knowledge of Japanese smithing techniques, even peope like Ankerson who are some of the bleeding edge of knife sharpness research.
 
I think what we've leaned form this thread is when asking a question like this you probably ought to specify whether it's a folder, fixed and what size, and do you have diamond stones.

For a folder and small fixed toughness isn't as big of a concern as it is for a large fixed blade. If you use diamond stones highly wear resistant steels are not hard to sharpen nor do they take all that much longer which also skews answers.

I think the better question for example might be; I'm looking at various 6" fixed blades to take camping I see them in all sorts of steels I sharpen free hand with Arkansas stones which is steel would have the best blend of toughness and edge retention while still being able to be sharpened with my current setup?
 
GermanyChris said:
I think what we've leaned form this thread is when asking a question like this you probably ought to specify whether it's a folder, fixed and what size, and do you have diamond stones.

For a folder and small fixed toughness isn't as big of a concern as it is for a large fixed blade. If you use diamond stones highly wear resistant steels are not hard to sharpen nor do they take all that much longer which also skews answers.

I think the better question for example might be; I'm looking at various 6" fixed blades to take camping I see them in all sorts of steels I sharpen free hand with Arkansas stones which is steel would have the best blend of toughness and edge retention while still being able to be sharpened with my current setup?
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Too bad you would need an extensive ammount of knowledge in order to know that is the question you should be asking. Lol.

To the white steel guy, all joking aside, there is no steel, no matter how many unicorns forge it, that is the "best" steel. Only steels that are better for certain applications.
 
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I am looking at the guardian 4 in vanadis 4 extra for camping/food prep and such. Not sure if it will be best suited for the task in the vanadis or if m390 would be better all around including against blade staining/rust.
 
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Lapedog said:
Too bad you would need sn extensive ammount of knowledge in order to know that is the question you should be asking. Lol.

To the white steel guy, all joking aside, there is no steel, no matter how many unicorns forge it, that is the "best" steel. Only steels that are better for certain applications.
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The question was; which is best blondes, brunets, or gingers
 
I got me a Gerber it get cuttin done right good

Sorry wrong forum...XHP and CPM154 are worth mentioning on the stainless side of things and/or if you take it up to a three factor criteria (edge retention, toughness, corrosion resistance)
 
MRider86 said:
I am looking at the guardian 4 in vanadis 4 extra for camping/food prep and such. Not sure if it will be best suited for the task in the vanadis or if m390 would be better all around including against blade staining/rust.
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I consider both M390 and Vanadis 4E to be well rounded steels. But V4E will be tougher, more resistant to chipping and breaking, while M390 will hold an edge longer. The stain resistance of M390 would be a plus. Both great steels. From your intended uses, I'd say M390 would be better for you.
 
On the stainless side, Elmax is a great steel that it often over shadowed by M390. Elmax might be the toughest stainless with edge retention that can rival M390. Solid corrosion resistance and can support a fine edge.

I would go with 3V as a non stainless option. 3V is so versatile, it seems most makers can take the RC from a real tough 58 up to 62. Carother’s uses the Delta heat treat protocol. Great toughness and edge holding.
 
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MRider86 said:
I was looking at the Bradford in Vanadis 4 Extra but was wondering if it would be a better all around blade then m390? And if rust would be a problem with everyday carry?
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I've done some reading on Google, and what I "think" I've read is this:
Vanadis 4 Extra is very tough...a little tougher than M390 and will hold an edge longer than M390.
Vanadis 4 Extra is a tool steel; it WILL (or CAN) rust, but not as likely as 3V. And 3V is has never been a problem; I've carried it a lot and never have had any rust...just dry it after use. If you are concerned about rust, you can buy the Bradford 3G or 4G with black DLC blade coating.
FWIW...I ordered two of the Vanadis 4 Extra Bradford Guardian 3's last night on the Bradford website. I have owned five or six 3G's in 3V and in M390 and they are great knives for cross-draw belt-carry. I've carried a Bradford 3G every day since I bought my first one...just about a year ago. I still carry a clipped large Sebbie, but it seldom gets used.
 
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Sonnydaze said:
I've done some reading on Google, and what I "think" I've read is this:
Vanadis 4 Extra is very tough...a little tougher than M390 and will hold an edge longer than M390....
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I'd disagree with you on that second point. Vanadis 4 Extra is tougher than M390, as you say, but it won't hold an edge as long. Both are balanced steels, but balanced differently.

Here's a link from the manufacturer of both M390 and V4E on edge holding, showing that at M390 at 61 Rc has 35 percent more wear resistance than V4E at 61 Rc:

http://www.bucorp.com/media/CATRA_Test2.pdf
 
The question was; which is best blondes, brunets, or gingers
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Based on what tests I have been fortunate enough to conduct in years past, the performance can vary quite a bit depending on geometry, overall shape/proportion, and it's temperature when the testing ensues. Can't say as I have ever been disappointed with any of them. But of course, I am only a keen amateur.

The answer is Asian women.
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Performance here can be exceptional, though the original formulation can lead to some very cryptic things an Anglo Saxon struggles to understand. Actually, it sometimes seems it's my wear resistance that gets tested. I say this as I am married to one.
 
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