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Most knife unfriendly places?
- Thread starter mschwoeb
- Start date
Good Evening All-
Even theaters (I'm talking Broadway shows...) are getting into the action by "wanding" people on their way in to the play. The lack of self-reliance in the general population is deeply disconcerting as they feel this is acceptable.
Typically, you'll see a grown man or grown woman trying to saw through mylar snack packaging with their housekeys rather than "resort" to using a small knife before the curtain goes up. Pathetic.
~ Blue Jays ~
Even theaters (I'm talking Broadway shows...) are getting into the action by "wanding" people on their way in to the play. The lack of self-reliance in the general population is deeply disconcerting as they feel this is acceptable.
Typically, you'll see a grown man or grown woman trying to saw through mylar snack packaging with their housekeys rather than "resort" to using a small knife before the curtain goes up. Pathetic.
~ Blue Jays ~
Good Evening All-
It's not just airlines and theme parks with their draconian inspections, but movie theaters, skyscrapers, and even hotels for cryin' out loud.
Just took a business trip to Manhattan and the Westin Hotel "security teenager" took a look in my briefcase for "weapons!" WTF? Are we at a point where buildings, recreation facilities, and corporate sites can simply "ban" anything they want...even if it is 100% legal? It would have been difficult for me to tell the brainless kid to "go pound sand" with senior management within ten feet of where I was standing.
Yeah, yeah, yeah...many people will say, "Hey, just don't go there!" It makes it kind of hard to live your life and work in Corporate America when you have to determine where your briefcase loaded with work stuff plus knife, flashlight, paracord, food, water, and facemask may be classified as "dangerous" to others.
The sheeple will eventually "come around," won't they? :barf:
[/rant]
~ Blue Jays ~
It's not just airlines and theme parks with their draconian inspections, but movie theaters, skyscrapers, and even hotels for cryin' out loud.
Just took a business trip to Manhattan and the Westin Hotel "security teenager" took a look in my briefcase for "weapons!" WTF? Are we at a point where buildings, recreation facilities, and corporate sites can simply "ban" anything they want...even if it is 100% legal? It would have been difficult for me to tell the brainless kid to "go pound sand" with senior management within ten feet of where I was standing.
Yeah, yeah, yeah...many people will say, "Hey, just don't go there!" It makes it kind of hard to live your life and work in Corporate America when you have to determine where your briefcase loaded with work stuff plus knife, flashlight, paracord, food, water, and facemask may be classified as "dangerous" to others.
The sheeple will eventually "come around," won't they? :barf:
[/rant]
~ Blue Jays ~
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2002
- Messages
- 4,131
In California all knives over 2.5" are banned on K-12 schools. On college campuses, that limit only applies to fixed blades. (folders of any size are okay)
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2000
- Messages
- 2,573
Statue of what?
They really do need to change the name with this sort of conduct.- Joined
- Jan 26, 2000
- Messages
- 2,573
My first high school had no weapons rules. It was 1st through 12th grade, and when I was in 7th a teacher need a knife and asked the students for one.
For my last three years of high school we were not allowed to brind "a weapon or anything considered a weapon." My though was "according to whom?" I carrieda maxi-kit in my bookbag, and it had a large and small folder in it. I usually had a knife of some sort with me.
In college I carried a Cold Steel Urban Pal until the last semester when I bought a Spyderco Endura. A couple of my classmates kept Cold Steel Trailmasters in their dorms, and I kept a Taylor-Seto Tanto. As long as there are no metal detectors in the schools, and it would be really wierd for colleges, "Don't ask, don't tell."
If you get in trouble, you can find some non-violent and untracable way to pay them back if you're into that sort of thing.
For my last three years of high school we were not allowed to brind "a weapon or anything considered a weapon." My though was "according to whom?" I carrieda maxi-kit in my bookbag, and it had a large and small folder in it. I usually had a knife of some sort with me.
In college I carried a Cold Steel Urban Pal until the last semester when I bought a Spyderco Endura. A couple of my classmates kept Cold Steel Trailmasters in their dorms, and I kept a Taylor-Seto Tanto. As long as there are no metal detectors in the schools, and it would be really wierd for colleges, "Don't ask, don't tell."
If you get in trouble, you can find some non-violent and untracable way to pay them back if you're into that sort of thing.
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2003
- Messages
- 1,913
For situations where I may be searched and relieved of my tools of choice that day I carry my custom neck knife [ straight blade about 4 inches long ] made from fiberglass resins.
Non-magnetic, x-ray doesn't find it and though it won't slash worth a damn I can "point" you which will cause sufficient injury if I thats my intent [ or need ] at the moment.
I had it made by Warren Thomas in Texas. Has his folder [ liner lock ]completely made of the same material but decided to let it go when soemone offered me $500.00 for it. He was only selling these to LE at the time.
Brownie
Non-magnetic, x-ray doesn't find it and though it won't slash worth a damn I can "point" you which will cause sufficient injury if I thats my intent [ or need ] at the moment.
I had it made by Warren Thomas in Texas. Has his folder [ liner lock ]completely made of the same material but decided to let it go when soemone offered me $500.00 for it. He was only selling these to LE at the time.
Brownie
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2003
- Messages
- 99
Keith,
Sorry to take so long to reply. Work and all.
What I have found is not the scope of what is actually banned but the inconsistancy and lack of clarity in the laws. In Ontario, it is illegal to carry any object specifically for use as a weapon. This applies even if the reasoning is self defense. It is also illegal to conceal a knife on your person. Technically any folder in your pocket could be deemed illegal. So you must carry your knives in plain view but a police officer is at his/hers/its (to be PC) own discretion to determine if the knife you carry is a "weapon" or a "tool". While a double edged dagger blade or 10" combat knife may not technically be illegal on its own, it could be confiscated as an illegal weapon at the discretion of an officer.
The best policy is to be courtious and helpful to the officer so that they are sympathetic to your situation. Most of the time they are decent, honest people doing their job very well. It is also best to have a pat answer for why you are carrying that does not include any defensive use. I know a municipal Officer who said he let a guy go who had a 12" camp knife in the middle of the city because the guy said he was going camping (the officer didn't think it was worth it to chase it through the court system).
As much as people may hate to admit it, looks play a big part too. You can be the nicest guy in the world, but if you haven't bathed, have long hair, tattoos and are wearing your old bike leathers... I am clean cut, dress well and drive a decent car, and I drive through RIDE stops and safety/seatbelt checks without a second glance regardless of what is in my pockets.
I have seen quite a few of my friends relieved of their knives though.- Joined
- Jan 24, 2003
- Messages
- 2,767
These knife "laws" and "rules" are 99% deciphered by mentally challenged individuals that really don't know the actual enforceable laws that apply to their own regions. Then you enter the LEO equasion, and sadly, most officers do not have a clear picture of what actually has to be enforced. We are victims of every new jurisdiction we enter, and are at the mercy of the "official", like some untrained but instant experts of security. I train new officers and TRY to instill some common sense when dealing with knives and preconceived ideas that the rookies bring onto the job. If nothing else works, I have the option of telling them,"Look, this is HOW you are going to do it!" You may like to know we havn't had any knives confiscated at my work place, and it is a gvt' installation of considerable size. I'm glad I am in a position to educate some would be knife grabbers before they join the problem "experts". I am also fortunate to have supervisors that share a common sense and love of knives. We have had some large blades left at HQ for the owners to pick up on their exit, without hassle. My being a knifemaker may have some influence in the whole matter, also.
Good Evening All-
Negotiating with LEO at a traffic stop is a piece of cake, at least 99.99% are reasonable. Typically speaking, these people are capable of making accurate judgement decisions.
The biggest (and most problematic) hassle is the utter RANDOMNESS in which places where we as Americans conduct day-to-day business insist upon searches....and the sheeple accept it.
Bag inspections at movie theaters? Come on.
Most high-rise office buildings now send your bag through an airport-style metal detector where some "security chick" with 3" fake, purple fingernails can determine if your possessions are indeed safe. Nevermind that you've been working in the same freakin' building for eleven years. Hopefully they won't have a bad day and scream "WEAPON!!" when they finally notice the AFCK mixed-in with the keys, metal pens, and network cables transported on a daily basis. Sheesh.
[/rant of the day]
~ Blue Jays ~
Negotiating with LEO at a traffic stop is a piece of cake, at least 99.99% are reasonable. Typically speaking, these people are capable of making accurate judgement decisions.
The biggest (and most problematic) hassle is the utter RANDOMNESS in which places where we as Americans conduct day-to-day business insist upon searches....and the sheeple accept it.
Bag inspections at movie theaters? Come on.
Most high-rise office buildings now send your bag through an airport-style metal detector where some "security chick" with 3" fake, purple fingernails can determine if your possessions are indeed safe. Nevermind that you've been working in the same freakin' building for eleven years. Hopefully they won't have a bad day and scream "WEAPON!!" when they finally notice the AFCK mixed-in with the keys, metal pens, and network cables transported on a daily basis. Sheesh.
[/rant of the day]
~ Blue Jays ~
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2001
- Messages
- 932
I have found that the real problem is with wannabe security. They get their uniforms and security patches and try to enforce their perceived authority. I have, on several occasions, demanded to see their supervisor and file a complaint. I also ask for a point of contact to follow up on the complaint. It's a lot of trouble but between me and several of my friends we have managed to have at least two of the supposed security experts replaced. (BTW this was post 9/11.)
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2003
- Messages
- 1,913
Had security tell me I could not bring the knives into my office building after 9-11 myself.
Guess what--I had them call the Boston PD. When they arrived I showed the officers my "shield". Never bothered to tell security that I had one.
The officers laughed and told the kids to let me into the building I wasn't breaking any laws in the commonwealth.
The security people and I have had no issues since then as the word spread among them that I was LE. They nod, and smile as I walk by them into the building now.
Good thing they didn't search me or they would have found the other two knives and a gun on me at the same time.
Brownie
Guess what--I had them call the Boston PD. When they arrived I showed the officers my "shield". Never bothered to tell security that I had one.
The officers laughed and told the kids to let me into the building I wasn't breaking any laws in the commonwealth.
The security people and I have had no issues since then as the word spread among them that I was LE. They nod, and smile as I walk by them into the building now.
Good thing they didn't search me or they would have found the other two knives and a gun on me at the same time.
Brownie
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2001
- Messages
- 358
for being a "liberal" arts college, mine has been pretty knife friendly. I carried a spyderco endura clipped RF and a BM 42 in a sheath on my belt for 2 semesters without hassle.
concerts are a deffinate no-no for knives(as well as carabiners, any necklaces made of chain or balls, spikes on anything, wallet chains(even hemp or rope ones), etc..)
ya'll city slickers and your fancy metal detectors. I don't live in the country but pretty close. I can move freely from place to place in my nearest metropolitan area fairly easily, only place that wont let knives in is the county building.
my work has signs all over that say "no concealed weapons alloud on property". I found out why today, we have the biggest flaming a-hole in the world working there. I'll give anyone a dollar to come beat him up
concerts are a deffinate no-no for knives(as well as carabiners, any necklaces made of chain or balls, spikes on anything, wallet chains(even hemp or rope ones), etc..)
ya'll city slickers and your fancy metal detectors. I don't live in the country but pretty close. I can move freely from place to place in my nearest metropolitan area fairly easily, only place that wont let knives in is the county building.
my work has signs all over that say "no concealed weapons alloud on property". I found out why today, we have the biggest flaming a-hole in the world working there. I'll give anyone a dollar to come beat him up
Good Evening All-
Brownie, this is EXACTLY the frustration I'm talking about. The badge you mentioned provides you a "free pass" on blades that most people do not enjoy. If push came to shove and you were having difficulty gaining admittance to a museum, national park, or public event, you could present the shield and you're on your way.
Political Correctness has allowed many institutions to exercise discrimination against virtually anything that they do not "like" at their whim. In what kind of times do we live that a hotel reserves the right to search your bags before you check-in? The inmates are clearly running the asylum...
How would BladeForumites handle this kind of situation with the realization that you may not get your hotel room if you refuse? It would really be a lousy vacation if you had to spend the first day trying to secure new lodging arrangements. Does everyone feel that these businesses would eventually "back-down" if we made enough of a stink?
Regards,
~ Blue Jays ~
Brownie, this is EXACTLY the frustration I'm talking about. The badge you mentioned provides you a "free pass" on blades that most people do not enjoy. If push came to shove and you were having difficulty gaining admittance to a museum, national park, or public event, you could present the shield and you're on your way.
Political Correctness has allowed many institutions to exercise discrimination against virtually anything that they do not "like" at their whim. In what kind of times do we live that a hotel reserves the right to search your bags before you check-in? The inmates are clearly running the asylum...
How would BladeForumites handle this kind of situation with the realization that you may not get your hotel room if you refuse? It would really be a lousy vacation if you had to spend the first day trying to secure new lodging arrangements. Does everyone feel that these businesses would eventually "back-down" if we made enough of a stink?
Regards,
~ Blue Jays ~
My kid's and just about any school these days. Also quite a number of colleges and universities don't allow them. I have gotten some strange looks pulling out a knife on some college campuses.
I work for a beverage dispenser company when not working for Uncle Sam. I normally carry a stockman for use on the job to cut plastic tubing and packing materials. I still get the looks but nothing like when they see an AFCK or large Spyderco.
I have even been asked if a disposable blade utility knife was required on one campus. I asked how they expected me to open the box since I had no plans to use my teeth.
I work for a beverage dispenser company when not working for Uncle Sam. I normally carry a stockman for use on the job to cut plastic tubing and packing materials. I still get the looks but nothing like when they see an AFCK or large Spyderco.
I have even been asked if a disposable blade utility knife was required on one campus. I asked how they expected me to open the box since I had no plans to use my teeth.
- Joined
- Aug 17, 2000
- Messages
- 1,039
The Robert Ripley Aquarium in Gatlinburg, Tn does not allow knives. Since they had an old lady with a wand (who wasn't fast enough to wand me as I fast walked past her), I felt no need to ditch my Buck 110. My wife and I decided not to follow up with a trip to the "Believe it or not" Museum. This was last fall.
The aquarium was worth it though. We got to laugh at the little hillbilly childrens' response to the sharks
Chris
The aquarium was worth it though. We got to laugh at the little hillbilly childrens' response to the sharks
Chris
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2003
- Messages
- 1,913
Blue Jays:
The shield doesn't get me into PO's, Federal buildings, parks, etc anymore than anyone else.
In the instance of the private property I mentioned I would have been aloowed in without the sheild as the knife was not illegal to have in this state anyway.
They [ the security personnel ] were just overly aggressive after the 9-11 incident.
I've had cops take knives from me but then have to give them back later as I had broken no laws in carrying what they assumed was contraband. They assumptions were wrong and when they were educated as to the correct rulings [statutes] relative blade length they returned my property post haste.
Any civilian who has a handle on the laws governing what they may or may not posses in public legally has the same recourse. It just isn'tr wise to argue with the LE on the street when he takes the knife he "believes" is illegal.
The real issues across the country I see are that most LE's are uninformed about the laws governing knives and have been preprogrammed through urban legend from older officers when they were pups ju8st on the force. Educating the law enforcement community of what is and isn't legal isn't that difficult but oftentimes necessary.
Most people would not push to get their knife back even when it was not illegal. Thats not the LE's issue but ours as carriers of these products.
One of the big jokes around here is the LE community believes that they are entitled [ exempt ] from the auto knife laws. In Massachusetts they are not exempt and are in violation of 269-10b of the mass statutes if they carry one as well.
Now it is true they will probably never be challenged due to their status within the community as LE's but then again if they are made aware of the laws they should have no problem complying with the same laws they enforce themselves.
I have gone round and round with the LE communities around me on this. Some have attitudes and others appreciate the heads up. Like any profession there are good and bad apples mixed in the bushel basket.
Know the laws in the area you are in at that time. Carry a copy of the pertinent statute with you when traveling. I carry a copy of the 269-10b statute in my glovebox.
See--I'm not anymore protected than the next swinging D%$k on the streets. The difference is I instruct LE's as an adjunct instructor, have a PI license in the state [ considered a professional by some and not by others ]and have worked for attys: long enough to realize that if you allow these people to take your property which is not illegal to possess in that district and do not persue the issues to retrieve your property if it is in fact confiscated you are part of the problem which continue until someone does make an issue out of it.
At my age and with the experience I have on the street and courts systems after 30 years, it gets easier to explain why you are not illegal in carrying the knife they are questioning.
As an aside, if I know the park service will search me and will confiscate anything knife on me I have the same choices here as everyone else. I can choose to leave them in the car or I can choose not to enter their property.
Then again, I can always choose to carry unconventional weapons which won't be noticed by them but are still capable of inflicting death or severe injury if I have to go that far.
Bic pens, my belt, the buckle, and things non magnetic [ they make some neat stuff that will get through the detectors these days ]are options if I so choose.
Do they have the right to ask you to search your bags at a hotel before checkin? I doubt it, but then it's your choice to comply or go elsewhere if thats their business policy and it is enforced for everyone. In the hotel scenario you could always hide the tool at check in and then retrieve it after you have paid for the room. Leave them in a car if you drove in. Very few would get to a hotel by cab from the airport but would have a rental car. Leave questionable items there until the check-in search is completed.
Use some common sense and you only need to work around the scenario instead of trying to fight their rules to be able to have what you want with you. Is it something we should expect after 9-11. Yes, it is.
Will there be unfairness in the functioning of the rules, of course there will, people carry their prejudice in different ways. Security will always be an issue and the more we are forced to check people the more we lose some of the freedoms we have enjoyed before 9-11.
The world we live in becomes more dangerous not less as time goes on and we need to find ways to work within the system even if that system isn't what we consider fair or logical.
When I attended knife training with Master at Arms James Keating over several years I drove from Boston to Little Rock and New Orleans instead of flying. Two reasons why--
1. I hate flying
2. I was able to carry my knives to the class and I was ableto bring long knives that would have just caused all kinds of issues had I tried to board the plane or they were found packed in the luggage.
I adjusted my schedule to fit MY needs on those trips. It would have been easier to fly into those cities but I was not prepared to go unarmed. Thats a choice I made and had no problem making it.
We have choices, we can choose not to go where we have to be disarmed [whether right or wrong ]or we can give up our tools to be in that area. The point is we all have choices, I know what mine are and why under most circiumstances and act accordingly.
Brownie
The shield doesn't get me into PO's, Federal buildings, parks, etc anymore than anyone else.
In the instance of the private property I mentioned I would have been aloowed in without the sheild as the knife was not illegal to have in this state anyway.
They [ the security personnel ] were just overly aggressive after the 9-11 incident.
I've had cops take knives from me but then have to give them back later as I had broken no laws in carrying what they assumed was contraband. They assumptions were wrong and when they were educated as to the correct rulings [statutes] relative blade length they returned my property post haste.
Any civilian who has a handle on the laws governing what they may or may not posses in public legally has the same recourse. It just isn'tr wise to argue with the LE on the street when he takes the knife he "believes" is illegal.
The real issues across the country I see are that most LE's are uninformed about the laws governing knives and have been preprogrammed through urban legend from older officers when they were pups ju8st on the force. Educating the law enforcement community of what is and isn't legal isn't that difficult but oftentimes necessary.
Most people would not push to get their knife back even when it was not illegal. Thats not the LE's issue but ours as carriers of these products.
One of the big jokes around here is the LE community believes that they are entitled [ exempt ] from the auto knife laws. In Massachusetts they are not exempt and are in violation of 269-10b of the mass statutes if they carry one as well.
Now it is true they will probably never be challenged due to their status within the community as LE's but then again if they are made aware of the laws they should have no problem complying with the same laws they enforce themselves.
I have gone round and round with the LE communities around me on this. Some have attitudes and others appreciate the heads up. Like any profession there are good and bad apples mixed in the bushel basket.
Know the laws in the area you are in at that time. Carry a copy of the pertinent statute with you when traveling. I carry a copy of the 269-10b statute in my glovebox.
See--I'm not anymore protected than the next swinging D%$k on the streets. The difference is I instruct LE's as an adjunct instructor, have a PI license in the state [ considered a professional by some and not by others ]and have worked for attys: long enough to realize that if you allow these people to take your property which is not illegal to possess in that district and do not persue the issues to retrieve your property if it is in fact confiscated you are part of the problem which continue until someone does make an issue out of it.
At my age and with the experience I have on the street and courts systems after 30 years, it gets easier to explain why you are not illegal in carrying the knife they are questioning.
As an aside, if I know the park service will search me and will confiscate anything knife on me I have the same choices here as everyone else. I can choose to leave them in the car or I can choose not to enter their property.
Then again, I can always choose to carry unconventional weapons which won't be noticed by them but are still capable of inflicting death or severe injury if I have to go that far.
Bic pens, my belt, the buckle, and things non magnetic [ they make some neat stuff that will get through the detectors these days ]are options if I so choose.
Do they have the right to ask you to search your bags at a hotel before checkin? I doubt it, but then it's your choice to comply or go elsewhere if thats their business policy and it is enforced for everyone. In the hotel scenario you could always hide the tool at check in and then retrieve it after you have paid for the room. Leave them in a car if you drove in. Very few would get to a hotel by cab from the airport but would have a rental car. Leave questionable items there until the check-in search is completed.
Use some common sense and you only need to work around the scenario instead of trying to fight their rules to be able to have what you want with you. Is it something we should expect after 9-11. Yes, it is.
Will there be unfairness in the functioning of the rules, of course there will, people carry their prejudice in different ways. Security will always be an issue and the more we are forced to check people the more we lose some of the freedoms we have enjoyed before 9-11.
The world we live in becomes more dangerous not less as time goes on and we need to find ways to work within the system even if that system isn't what we consider fair or logical.
When I attended knife training with Master at Arms James Keating over several years I drove from Boston to Little Rock and New Orleans instead of flying. Two reasons why--
1. I hate flying
2. I was able to carry my knives to the class and I was ableto bring long knives that would have just caused all kinds of issues had I tried to board the plane or they were found packed in the luggage.
I adjusted my schedule to fit MY needs on those trips. It would have been easier to fly into those cities but I was not prepared to go unarmed. Thats a choice I made and had no problem making it.
We have choices, we can choose not to go where we have to be disarmed [whether right or wrong ]or we can give up our tools to be in that area. The point is we all have choices, I know what mine are and why under most circiumstances and act accordingly.
Brownie
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2000
- Messages
- 6,677
If you visit NASA's Kennedy Space Center on Cape Canaveral in Florida, be sure to leave the knife in the car. Their security standards are basically the same as the airlines. At least they have signs all along the approach to the parking lot making it clear exactly what items are forbidden.
My wife and I visited CNN Center in Atlanta in spring of 2002 and took the CNN tour. They had metal detectors and forbid knives and such. The nice thing, though, was that they held my knife (I was carrying a large Gerber Folding Sportman) and issued me a claim ticket. After the tour I simply walked over and traded the ticket for my knife. The security guard even commented favorably on my choice of cutlery. I'm no fan of CNN as a news outlet, but their rational approach to the fact that, yes, many of their visitors do carry pocketknives, was very refreshing and welcome.
My wife and I visited CNN Center in Atlanta in spring of 2002 and took the CNN tour. They had metal detectors and forbid knives and such. The nice thing, though, was that they held my knife (I was carrying a large Gerber Folding Sportman) and issued me a claim ticket. After the tour I simply walked over and traded the ticket for my knife. The security guard even commented favorably on my choice of cutlery.
I'm no fan of CNN as a news outlet, but their rational approach to the fact that, yes, many of their visitors do carry pocketknives, was very refreshing and welcome.