- Joined
- Sep 9, 2003
- Messages
- 2,361
Again and again, across the internet when I am involved in a conversation somebody will come at me with a rebuttal that not everybody has, needs, or even wants salt baths, microscopes, Rockwell testers etc… It always comes out of left field as if I missed a whole part of the conversation where some Cashen evil twin said one can’t make knives without a scanning electron microscope and a super-collider. This I believe is often a straw man argument to deflect attention from some other weak point dealing with perceived results. But many see it and seem to get the idea that I advocate all knifemakers getting set up with state of the art equipment, as if I would want the world to be that boring. You see I don’t insist on any method or tool over another, I do however strongly encourage the pursuit of intellectual honesty and reasoning based upon facts. If you have made up your mind about any material or equipment, it is not my place to try to change that. I will offer information with supporting data and reasons to anybody asking. In that process others may see that as refuting their views, And if their views are not supported by data and sound reasoning, they would be right.
Although I virtually never include exact step by steps in how I would do things with my equipment and try to gear my posts to what the inquiring smith may have at hand, I still get the communication lapse that I am pushing the tools I am accustomed to so I thought I would post some things to set the record straight and give information than many erroneously feel that I could never give.
Forges- Coal or gas, I actually prefer coal for many operations. It is capable of localized heats that gas forges are not. It is quieter and more relaxing to run. Nothing is more soothing to the soul than bellows on a charcoal forge and is my choice for pure forging pleasure. Coal and charcoal is dirty, I rarely resemble a Caucasian after working in these forges and blow black boogers for a week,and the need for efficiency in business necessitates a gas forge for me. I do not believe either is any better for the product in the end, it is what you develop the skill set for. Summary: The steel doesn’t care if the heat source is a shiny new gas forge or a hole in the ground with a goat skin attached. There are however factual issues that I prefer people get straight in dealing with these items- please learn about carbon diffusion and how steel will or will not carburize or decarburize when using any type of forge before just believing the old wives tales about them.
Steels used- Do I only work with O1 or L6 tool steels with the bills of origin and full chemical analysis in front of me? NO! I work with everything from bloomery iron that I make myself to the best alloys I can buy. I also have a large scrap pile out back that I pick out of to make primitive knives as gifts to my friends at the Rendezvous encampments. Here I am definitely not high tech since I don’t like having anything in my shop with alloying greater than 1% in any element other than iron. All steel is good for something, some is better than others for certain applications, and chances of success are always greater when you know your material and work it accordingly for that application. I feel that a major consideration in steel selection is what tools that steel was designed to be worked with. If you have a hole in the ground and a pile of charcoal the simper steels will be happier for you and make you happier. I suggest 1070, 1075, 1080, 1084, or even W1 or W2. If you have a digitally controlled kiln, I suggest steels with more alloying and carbon. If you have high tech ovens use any steel you like and be happy. Files and rasps make fantastic looking primitive knives, well treated tool steels make great performance knives, shallow hardening simple carbon steels make great hamons, and stainless steels make great blades for corrosive environments or gifts for the guy who can’t take care of anything.
Summary: What are you making? Pick accordingly and do the best job possible. I have no preference in your steel selection as long as you are happy. But in the end please don’t insult my intelligence by proclaiming as fact that you can get the exact same results from a rich alloy with a pile of Kingsford briquettes and a hair drier that a quality heat treater could with an atmospheric oven. Instead tell me that you made a knife you are very happy with using W2 in the backyard grill. And do yourself the favor of at least admitting to the fact that knowing your material and exactly how to meet its individual needs is the single best route to success, instead of letting pride keep you from considering that the results may have been even better than your standards at the time.
Salt baths- they are not for everyone! They are simply overkill for what the vast majority of knifemakers wish to accomplish. In fact I actually cringe when I get a knifemaker without years of experience in heating equipment asking me questions on how to build their salt rig. I cannot tell you how often I desperately want to tell people to abandon the idea and walk away when they tell me they are halfway through building a unit and then ask questions that reveal that they plainly don’t event know what it is that they are building. It is really scary! And I feel I could be somehow responsible for what may happen due to the false idea that I somehow advocate salt baths in very shop.
Summary: Please people, I have specific needs that only salt baths could meet- metallurgical testing and research, difficult swords with crazy cross sections, finishing procedures that have evolved around such equipment, this does not mean what I have is what I believe is the thing to have in your shop, develop you own equipment needs based upon your procedures and goals.
Quenchants- I am not a sales rep for Heat Bath Corp., I wished I was! Then perhaps the ornery *$%# s would sell their stuff to people who want to buy it. It is of no consequence to me how many knifemakers are using Parks #50, in fact I feel it is pushed a little too hard as if it were the only quench oil made. I actually believe it is mentioned so much on many forums because it is the only quench oil many people ever heard of. 10 years ago nobody had ever heard of the stuff, except maybe Dan Maragni. Then Dan handed me a bucket to use during my demo at Ashokan and I fell in love with it and began spreading the word. But I have also used products from Amoco, Chevron, Houghton as well as AAA and other oils from Heat Bath. I have also used water, brine, old motor oil, ATF and other stuff. I do feel that Park #50 is the cleanest and fastest oil available for steels that normally require water to harden in thicker sections, yes I do like it better than the Houghton equivalents, but that is a moot point if you can’t get it or have to be financially sodomized on the secondary market to have a few gallons.
If you are working with 10XX or “W” series steels I highly recommend the fastest formulated quenchant you can get before resorting to water based quenchants, simply because even those who say water is “just fine” admit to losing some percentage of their blades in the quench. After all the hard work a cracked blade is more heartache than any of us deserve for our efforts especially if it is totally avoidable with other alternatives. If you are working with alloyed steel that is capable of deeper hardening and wish to work with alternatives of your own choosing, believe or not here are my recommendations- hydraulic fluid and ATF are better than motor oil or many other lubricants or automotive products since they have better thermal extraction rates. Canola oil seems to work quite well when not browning french fries, I believe better than peanut oil, which is not as fast.
Common sense should dictate what will best extract heat via convection and conduction. Thus common sense should also eliminate goops, goos or lards, I will never understand how common sense was collectively switched off on that one just because it got published, and if you want to argue with me on that one- don’t bother! If you don’t get it you will just have to live with it or work it out on your own! So in that sense I am even cool with you using goo, as long as I don’t have to hear about how it "works just fine". Once again use whatever makes you happy; just know why you are using it and match it to your steel for the best results.
Summary: Here is where I stand- if you are looking to quench steel the most logical thing to use is something called quenching oil!!! I am so tired of trying to explain the patently obvious logic of this that I really don’t care to discuss it any longer, as it needs no discussion. But I am actually cool with anybody using any quenchant they want. I am not cool with anybody asking me to believe you can use any quenchant you want and get the exact same results, or being expected to accept “it works just fine” as proof of that stance. If you ask me what quenchant to use I will give you my best recommendation based on the steel you are working, and back it up with sound and specific technical reasons why, I would hope you would insist others do the same before making up your mind, but what you decide is totally up to you.
Testing equipment and methods- I sometimes have what I believe is a rather surreal conversation… “Kevin, I bought this microscope…”, My immediate reaction is “why the hell would you buy a metallurgical microscope”?? Please, please, please tell me that I have not given anybody the impression that you need microscopes to make knives!!! Not only doesn’t my metallograph or scopes contribute directly to my efficiency in knifemaking, they are &$#%*!~ time vampires that have also needlessly exsanguinated my wallet! I teach, lecture and write articles that require research and analysis provided by a lab that I would never had needed if all I wanted to do was make knives. Before you start shopping for a scope please ask specifically what you plan on doing with it, and be aware that the scope is just one piece of equipment and supplies among many you will need to combine with metallography skills before you can see anything in steel. I spend whole days preparing a sample before I even sit down at the microscope, and for what? To more effectively dispute the tripe disseminated in the last issue of “Blade Illustrated”, to an audience that really doesn’t need anymore evidence beyond “Bladesmith Bob said it was so in his article”. Please folks don’t do it! Just make knives and be happy!
I know that I come off as bashing basic testing all the time, but I have no problem with any test as long as it measures what we say it measures and that no test is held up as the ultimate or definitive measure of a knife. File testing is good as long as you realize what it cannot measure and you don’t declare it as all one needs to know. Brass rods and bent blades are fine as long as you understand what it is actually telling you, instead of the B.S. some other smith is telling you about it, and as long as we don’t start making knives around that B.S. instead of making them perform as knives!
Far too often our tests are used as excuses to remain ignorant instead of advancing our work- “It skates a file, my heat treat is just fine!”, “It passes the brass rod test that’s all I need to know!” , “I don’t need metallurgy, my blades bend 90 degrees ten times without breaking!” , “I don’t need better edge retention, my blades are all 60 Rc when done”. Real tests spawn ten times more questions than they answer and are never a stopping point in knowledge gathering instead of a springboard for more inquiry.
Summary: I am here to say that in order to make great knives I believe you don’t need any special testing equipment beyond an insatiable driving need to know as much as you possibly can about the results of your process and a good filter for the marketing B.S. famous smiths will tell you measure “performance”. Without this, microscopes and Rockwell testers are equally as useless as brass rods and piles of rope.
Basically I have once again taken several pages to lay out a very simple concept. Each of these topics above have the same common theme – tools and equipment, both simple and complex, versus the one tool that trumps them all…reasoning based on solid information. You can have $500,000 worth of equipment in your shop and still be beat by the guy with a BBQ grill and a hair dryer who has to know exactly what he is doing, and why, before he does it. You don't need fancy equipment to make better knives, all you need is knowledge, because without it you can't even know what "better" is. In the end the only item too primitive for any bladesmiths shop is ignorance, and unfortunately it is the most expensive of them all to work with.
Although I virtually never include exact step by steps in how I would do things with my equipment and try to gear my posts to what the inquiring smith may have at hand, I still get the communication lapse that I am pushing the tools I am accustomed to so I thought I would post some things to set the record straight and give information than many erroneously feel that I could never give.
Forges- Coal or gas, I actually prefer coal for many operations. It is capable of localized heats that gas forges are not. It is quieter and more relaxing to run. Nothing is more soothing to the soul than bellows on a charcoal forge and is my choice for pure forging pleasure. Coal and charcoal is dirty, I rarely resemble a Caucasian after working in these forges and blow black boogers for a week,and the need for efficiency in business necessitates a gas forge for me. I do not believe either is any better for the product in the end, it is what you develop the skill set for. Summary: The steel doesn’t care if the heat source is a shiny new gas forge or a hole in the ground with a goat skin attached. There are however factual issues that I prefer people get straight in dealing with these items- please learn about carbon diffusion and how steel will or will not carburize or decarburize when using any type of forge before just believing the old wives tales about them.
Steels used- Do I only work with O1 or L6 tool steels with the bills of origin and full chemical analysis in front of me? NO! I work with everything from bloomery iron that I make myself to the best alloys I can buy. I also have a large scrap pile out back that I pick out of to make primitive knives as gifts to my friends at the Rendezvous encampments. Here I am definitely not high tech since I don’t like having anything in my shop with alloying greater than 1% in any element other than iron. All steel is good for something, some is better than others for certain applications, and chances of success are always greater when you know your material and work it accordingly for that application. I feel that a major consideration in steel selection is what tools that steel was designed to be worked with. If you have a hole in the ground and a pile of charcoal the simper steels will be happier for you and make you happier. I suggest 1070, 1075, 1080, 1084, or even W1 or W2. If you have a digitally controlled kiln, I suggest steels with more alloying and carbon. If you have high tech ovens use any steel you like and be happy. Files and rasps make fantastic looking primitive knives, well treated tool steels make great performance knives, shallow hardening simple carbon steels make great hamons, and stainless steels make great blades for corrosive environments or gifts for the guy who can’t take care of anything.
Summary: What are you making? Pick accordingly and do the best job possible. I have no preference in your steel selection as long as you are happy. But in the end please don’t insult my intelligence by proclaiming as fact that you can get the exact same results from a rich alloy with a pile of Kingsford briquettes and a hair drier that a quality heat treater could with an atmospheric oven. Instead tell me that you made a knife you are very happy with using W2 in the backyard grill. And do yourself the favor of at least admitting to the fact that knowing your material and exactly how to meet its individual needs is the single best route to success, instead of letting pride keep you from considering that the results may have been even better than your standards at the time.
Salt baths- they are not for everyone! They are simply overkill for what the vast majority of knifemakers wish to accomplish. In fact I actually cringe when I get a knifemaker without years of experience in heating equipment asking me questions on how to build their salt rig. I cannot tell you how often I desperately want to tell people to abandon the idea and walk away when they tell me they are halfway through building a unit and then ask questions that reveal that they plainly don’t event know what it is that they are building. It is really scary! And I feel I could be somehow responsible for what may happen due to the false idea that I somehow advocate salt baths in very shop.
Summary: Please people, I have specific needs that only salt baths could meet- metallurgical testing and research, difficult swords with crazy cross sections, finishing procedures that have evolved around such equipment, this does not mean what I have is what I believe is the thing to have in your shop, develop you own equipment needs based upon your procedures and goals.
Quenchants- I am not a sales rep for Heat Bath Corp., I wished I was! Then perhaps the ornery *$%# s would sell their stuff to people who want to buy it. It is of no consequence to me how many knifemakers are using Parks #50, in fact I feel it is pushed a little too hard as if it were the only quench oil made. I actually believe it is mentioned so much on many forums because it is the only quench oil many people ever heard of. 10 years ago nobody had ever heard of the stuff, except maybe Dan Maragni. Then Dan handed me a bucket to use during my demo at Ashokan and I fell in love with it and began spreading the word. But I have also used products from Amoco, Chevron, Houghton as well as AAA and other oils from Heat Bath. I have also used water, brine, old motor oil, ATF and other stuff. I do feel that Park #50 is the cleanest and fastest oil available for steels that normally require water to harden in thicker sections, yes I do like it better than the Houghton equivalents, but that is a moot point if you can’t get it or have to be financially sodomized on the secondary market to have a few gallons.
If you are working with 10XX or “W” series steels I highly recommend the fastest formulated quenchant you can get before resorting to water based quenchants, simply because even those who say water is “just fine” admit to losing some percentage of their blades in the quench. After all the hard work a cracked blade is more heartache than any of us deserve for our efforts especially if it is totally avoidable with other alternatives. If you are working with alloyed steel that is capable of deeper hardening and wish to work with alternatives of your own choosing, believe or not here are my recommendations- hydraulic fluid and ATF are better than motor oil or many other lubricants or automotive products since they have better thermal extraction rates. Canola oil seems to work quite well when not browning french fries, I believe better than peanut oil, which is not as fast.
Common sense should dictate what will best extract heat via convection and conduction. Thus common sense should also eliminate goops, goos or lards, I will never understand how common sense was collectively switched off on that one just because it got published, and if you want to argue with me on that one- don’t bother! If you don’t get it you will just have to live with it or work it out on your own! So in that sense I am even cool with you using goo, as long as I don’t have to hear about how it "works just fine". Once again use whatever makes you happy; just know why you are using it and match it to your steel for the best results.
Summary: Here is where I stand- if you are looking to quench steel the most logical thing to use is something called quenching oil!!! I am so tired of trying to explain the patently obvious logic of this that I really don’t care to discuss it any longer, as it needs no discussion. But I am actually cool with anybody using any quenchant they want. I am not cool with anybody asking me to believe you can use any quenchant you want and get the exact same results, or being expected to accept “it works just fine” as proof of that stance. If you ask me what quenchant to use I will give you my best recommendation based on the steel you are working, and back it up with sound and specific technical reasons why, I would hope you would insist others do the same before making up your mind, but what you decide is totally up to you.
Testing equipment and methods- I sometimes have what I believe is a rather surreal conversation… “Kevin, I bought this microscope…”, My immediate reaction is “why the hell would you buy a metallurgical microscope”?? Please, please, please tell me that I have not given anybody the impression that you need microscopes to make knives!!! Not only doesn’t my metallograph or scopes contribute directly to my efficiency in knifemaking, they are &$#%*!~ time vampires that have also needlessly exsanguinated my wallet! I teach, lecture and write articles that require research and analysis provided by a lab that I would never had needed if all I wanted to do was make knives. Before you start shopping for a scope please ask specifically what you plan on doing with it, and be aware that the scope is just one piece of equipment and supplies among many you will need to combine with metallography skills before you can see anything in steel. I spend whole days preparing a sample before I even sit down at the microscope, and for what? To more effectively dispute the tripe disseminated in the last issue of “Blade Illustrated”, to an audience that really doesn’t need anymore evidence beyond “Bladesmith Bob said it was so in his article”. Please folks don’t do it! Just make knives and be happy!
I know that I come off as bashing basic testing all the time, but I have no problem with any test as long as it measures what we say it measures and that no test is held up as the ultimate or definitive measure of a knife. File testing is good as long as you realize what it cannot measure and you don’t declare it as all one needs to know. Brass rods and bent blades are fine as long as you understand what it is actually telling you, instead of the B.S. some other smith is telling you about it, and as long as we don’t start making knives around that B.S. instead of making them perform as knives!
Far too often our tests are used as excuses to remain ignorant instead of advancing our work- “It skates a file, my heat treat is just fine!”, “It passes the brass rod test that’s all I need to know!” , “I don’t need metallurgy, my blades bend 90 degrees ten times without breaking!” , “I don’t need better edge retention, my blades are all 60 Rc when done”. Real tests spawn ten times more questions than they answer and are never a stopping point in knowledge gathering instead of a springboard for more inquiry.
Summary: I am here to say that in order to make great knives I believe you don’t need any special testing equipment beyond an insatiable driving need to know as much as you possibly can about the results of your process and a good filter for the marketing B.S. famous smiths will tell you measure “performance”. Without this, microscopes and Rockwell testers are equally as useless as brass rods and piles of rope.
Basically I have once again taken several pages to lay out a very simple concept. Each of these topics above have the same common theme – tools and equipment, both simple and complex, versus the one tool that trumps them all…reasoning based on solid information. You can have $500,000 worth of equipment in your shop and still be beat by the guy with a BBQ grill and a hair dryer who has to know exactly what he is doing, and why, before he does it. You don't need fancy equipment to make better knives, all you need is knowledge, because without it you can't even know what "better" is. In the end the only item too primitive for any bladesmiths shop is ignorance, and unfortunately it is the most expensive of them all to work with.
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