My actual recommendations (setting the record straight)

No thank you! I thank you for the sentiments Stephan, but if I have anymore or my threads stickied I may claw on own eyes out. The top of this forum is littered more than enough with my rantings. So please no more stickies.

The simple inspiration for this thread was that I wished I had more opportunity to recommend the simplest and basic methods or tools, however I always seem to get sidetracked into having to justify why I can't support the oversimplified claims of things too many people attach to them, and then I am forced to take things to a more technical level. I actually wanted this thread to be a simple recommendation of very basic tools but I knew that if I didn't add some counterpoints folks would either take it as a late April fools joke, or run with the idea that I somehow support concepts that I don't support.

I also didn't want this thread to come off as another whining or bitching thread, I am cool with everybody else's posts lately, I just wanted to help clarify mine. I also wasn't fishing for compliments, don't get me wrong I appreciate the positive feedback more than you can know, but we should save our kind words for our wife, our kids or somebody who really contributed something more to our day than some weirdo bladesmith with an itch to commit his every gripe into text;)

I assumed you would feel that way which is why I didn't think it would be reasonable.

ohh, well, I guess I'll watch and wait for someone to come throw bricks at your windows.
 
Great Summation Kevin. :thumbup::thumbup: BUT Parks #50 will make a Lowes strap steel blade cut a file right????:eek::foot::cool::D:)
 
This year at Blade I plan on kicking Kevin in the bawlz once an hour for every week he's kept me waiting for his book.
The kicks will come out of nowhere, using the confusion of the crowd to my advantage. I've spent the last 6 weeks walking around with 5 gallon buckets of Park's #50 strapped to my ankles to build up bawlz-kicking strength.
I've lined the insides of the tongues of my shoes with 'rediscovered' 5160 from leaf springs and W2 from old files.
I've spent over 2 years studying the lost ancient Mayan school of CrushaDelBawlz and other neoprimitive bawlzbreaking methods.
Posts like this do nothing more than increase my rage and frustration, Kevin...
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...and I'm pretty sure you owe me at least one cigar.

Just because of you I'm never, ever going to use O1 or L6.

...but I still want a cigar from you. ;)

See you at Blade, my friend.:D
 
I don't believe a damn thing you say...... But I'll keep them under advisement until I form my own opinions. I have to have facts behind myself in everything as a scientifically trained redneck, and I thank you for your search for details (not necessarily truth) that you do, and for explaining your reasonings behind what you say.
 
I don't believe a damn thing you say...... But I'll keep them under advisement until I form my own opinions. I have to have facts behind myself in everything as a scientifically trained redneck, and I thank you for your search for details (not necessarily truth) that you do, and for explaining your reasonings behind what you say.



wow, so do you think Kevin is trying to be misleading?
 
Then you had better make with the book so we can sticky it all on our bookshelves! :)

Again, thanks for the safe, sane, calculated post Kevin. I only have one comment for you...If metalography has insanguinated your wallet rather than exsanguinated it, I'm buying a microscope tomorrow! :)

-d

Right you are, this would not be the first time my verbosity had my typing rate well exceeding my brain. I am not sure if what I typed is acutally a word- it would be an odd practice instead of just going for a transfusion.
 
I think you'd better quit worring about your prose and buy a cup for the Blade Show. :D Matt sounds like he's serious about that ball kicking, I saw a thread he started in the Practical Tactical.... "Please recommend a Harblz Kicking Technique for the Blade Show"
 
I appreciate all the information you have given freely. I have not seen every thread or every reply over the years that I have been lurking in the forums, but what I have seen has been enjoyable. Greatest of all is that I have learned things I would otherwise not know.

I have the half built salt tank, press, and electric ht furnace and many hours invested in the function, design, and the parts needed and bought for each. I know I can make knives without these things because it was done for a very long time before this technology came about. I see them as a way to not only improve what I do, but to make it easier to get the repeatable results I want. I will finish them someday but I think I will make another knife or two first.

Lane

"quickly hides the microscope and hardness tester"
 
wow, so do you think Kevin is trying to be misleading?


I happen to agree with him, I really only give a hoot about "truth" in interpersonal relationships, for figuring out the world around me I prefer data and facts. An illustration of this difference would be one smith heating 1095 to non-magnet and edge quenching into well used 10W40, skating a file and then cutting some rope with much satisfaction. While another smith heats 1095 to 1475F for 10 minutes and then quenches entirely into a very fast quenching oil, before Rockwell testing and whittling some wood with much satisfaction. Both say their knives are the best they can be, both say their knives got more than hard enough and that their methods work "just fine"... and both are telling the honest to God truth as they see it. While I am certain that both would pass a polygraph with flying colors, the facts and data upon a thorough examination of both blades would be that one blade would have perhaps 50% martensite conversion only in an narrow zone while the other would have over 90% martensite with a thin strip of 40-60% at the very thickest part of the spine. The facts would bear that one method was undeniable more effective in fully hardening the blade, yet the truth of the matter is still that each method worked "just fine" for the smith using it.

While it seems like a small matter of semantics, it is the source of much animosity that we can face when trying to set the record straight on some of these old bladesmithing notions. When we confuse the "truth" with the "facts" when they come up against each other people can get the idea that we are calling them liars or doubting their honesty. I can doubt a man's data or facts without questioning his sincerity. If somebody points out a typo or catches a error in our math they certainly aren't calling us a liar. I have never felt defensive or angry when my math was corrected on something that really mattered, in fact I thanked the person who just saved my butt. Why is it so damned different when we catch factual differences in knifemaking procedures?

I have rarely caught knifemakers not being truthful, but I have found tons of faulty data and conclusions. The few cases of knifemakers lacking truthfulness involved a factual error being pointed out only to plainly see that they were totally aware of the error all along yet chose to present it as fact anyhow, this has nothing to do with facts or truth. The odd thing about the kind of dishonesty that involves denying facts is that in order to make it convincing to others you first practice on yourself:(.
 
Kevin, correct me if I misunderstand, but you're stating that as long as we are doing the best we can with our tools and knowledge we're being honest. The collectors had an interesting discussion not long ago about "honest" blades. If we do not do the best we can with our knowledge, tooling and processes then we're being dishonest.

Early on I made knives to the best of my ability to satisfy myself. When I started selling knives I made the best I could to satisfy my customers and myself. As I gain more knowledge I'm getting harder to satisfy. There's a metallurgist at work and we have an extensive lab (just found this out) and he'll do RC testing, composition analysis and even do some microscopy for me when he has spare time. I plan on fully exploiting this resource by doing a variety of samples for testing and analysis. Is this necessary for 99.99% of our knives and usage? Nope, is it going to make my knives sell for more money? nope. BUT it may change my processes and make my knives a little better, at the very least it will reaffirm what I'm doing is right.
 
Kevin, correct me if I misunderstand, but you're stating that as long as we are doing the best we can with our tools and knowledge we're being honest. The collectors had an interesting discussion not long ago about "honest" blades. If we do not do the best we can with our knowledge, tooling and processes then we're being dishonest...

The following is opinion or what I believe, so this is not necessarily fact but my version of the "truth".

Yes, there is a big difference between honestly saying you are making the best knife you personally can, and saying you are making the best knives that can be made by anybody.
The first is the most honest approach we can take to the craft, the second by its very nature is dishonest on just about every level. The second will stagnate your growth and foster apathy, it necessitates dishonesty by giving views and assumptions as if they were facts, and it is just plain arrogant.

Here is where ignorance* comes into play, not self imposed ignorance which is just apathetic laziness, but the genuine state of not possessing the information beyond what you currently have. Total innocence was ours in Eden so long as we remained ignorant, but as soon as we gained the knowledge to know right from wrong we became capable of dishonesty. If a guy is making his very first knife and the only source of information he is aware of is a magazine or an internet forum where he is told that old saw blades are L6, and L6 is the "best knifemaking steel" and that heating to non-magnetic and plunking the edge into a goop will make "the best" using knife there is, and he follows those directions because it is the best information he has at the time- yes that first time maker is honest and is making honest knives.

That is where the responsibility gets laid on us! If those of us who should know better feed him that line, while he is innocent, those results are our sins being shouldered by an innocent party. When we have access to better information and ignore it we can no longer claim ignorance. Call it denial, call it apathy or call it laziness, when we do it to ourselves we get what we deserve but we have no right to victimize others with our self lobotomizing behavior.

On the other hand I do often contemplate whether it is kinder to allow a new maker to maintain his innocence or give him facts that burden him with the knowledge that will commit the honest man to a lifetime of struggling for improvement. But then avoiding the latter is really only delaying the inevitable.

That is not to say that every first time maker is innocently ignorant. Those who ask for input only because they want to be told the way they want to do it is indeed the best, and will ignore or deny anything that contradicts it are also being quite dishonest. If my advice offends because it contradicts what you read in the “$50 Knife Shop”, then why did you look elsewhere for information anyhow? Go with that book and be happy! Quite wasting my time and yours with these self validating mind games! Once again I do not care to tell folks what they have to do, I am very satisfied with them doing whatever makes them happy.

You will notice an abundance of the quote “it works just fine” in my critical posts; well I must admit it is because when it is said to a first time maker it pisses me off! “It works just fine” is just another way of saying “it is good enough for my low expectations and I don’t care to try any harder”; it is the equivalent of putting our fingers in our ears and humming so that we don’t have to hear something that would rob us of our comfortable ignorance. We owe it to those we advise to give them the best and data we can, not our most convenient assumptions.

The guy, who has been making knives for many years, has been exposed to all kinds of data and facts and ignores them to say that a pearlite ridden knife edge “works just fine” is not making an honest knife. If they held themselves up as an expert before they should of and made all kinds of claims and conclusions that were totally contradictory to fact, they can easily redeem themselves by admitting error and presenting better data. However the more common practice is to deny the facts in order to save face and try to convert as many new makers to their version of the “truth”, in order to maintain their expert image.

Why do you think I reject the “guru” or “expert” role as vehemently as I do? I don’t even want the temptation to pull any of the antics that too many “gurus’ or “experts” do in the pursuit of these ego games. Ego I understand, however the most dishonest crap I have seen comes down to selling more knives than the next guy by any means necessary, and that is less than dishonest, it is contemptible.

*I rarely use “ignorant” in a derogatory fashion, to me it is not stupidity it is simply the absence of knowledge. One can be a genius in physics and still be ignorant of horticulture with no negative connotations attached to that.
 
Much food for thought here, as usual. Thanks, gentlemen.

As for me and the honesty/truth thing, I'll endeavor to make the best knives I can and let my colleagues and customers know exactly how I did it. I hope that way I will get feedback on what I'm doing right/wrong, so I can continue the "lifetime of struggle" as Kevin called it. Life should be a bit of a struggle, or at least require effort. Otherwise what's the point?
 
Much food for thought here, as usual. Thanks, gentlemen.

As for me and the honesty/truth thing, I'll endeavor to make the best knives I can and let my colleagues and customers know exactly how I did it. I hope that way I will get feedback on what I'm doing right/wrong, so I can continue the "lifetime of struggle" as Kevin called it. Life should be a bit of a struggle, or at least require effort. Otherwise what's the point?

Exactly! That is why I despise utopian concepts and oppose those who pursue them. All of us occasionally have epiphanies after putting enough years behind us and as I approached middle age one hit me one day that really stuck- happiness is the overcoming of adversity. Not the absence of adversity, but the act of overcoming it. I believe the quickest way to kill the human soul is to remove all challenges for it struggle with, thus our worst times are every bit as precious for our growth as the best of times. A utopian society that took care of my every need and omitted the possibility of utter failure would be a living hell to me! Heaven would be endless challenges and unlimited, or more importantly- unhindered, freedom to overcome them
 
Beautifully worded. I completely agree.

I get bored and depressed easily. I'm not one to stare at a TV all day. I get antsy if I'm not doing something or at least challenging my thinking skills. Sure, I enjoy the simple pleasures of life as much as the next person. But I'm only really "happy" (whatever that means) when I've exceeded myself somehow.

I know a couple people who've had their finances handed to them, and have no creative hobbies or outlets. Frankly, they seem pretty miserable to me. :(
 
Exactly! That is why I despise utopian concepts and oppose those who pursue them. All of us occasionally have epiphanies after putting enough years behind us and as I approached middle age one hit me one day that really stuck- happiness is the overcoming of adversity. Not the absence of adversity, but the act of overcoming it. I believe the quickest way to kill the human soul is to remove all challenges for it struggle with, thus our worst times are every bit as precious for our growth as the best of times. A utopian society that took care of my every need and omitted the possibility of utter failure would be a living hell to me! Heaven would be endless challenges and unlimited, or more importantly- unhindered, freedom to overcome them

This reminds me of a counselling session I had with a young Soldier in Kosovo. He was becoming a trouble maker and was on his way out of the Army if he didn't pull his head out of his fourth point of contact. He was griping that the Army wasn't fun like he'd thought it would be. I explained that the Army wasn't about fun, it was about personal growth through overcoming challenges and adversity. There's a lot of things I gain satisfaction from that aren't "fun", knifemaking isn't "fun" it's often painful, sweaty and lonely, umpiring baseball isn't "fun", it's often painful, half the people are always mad at you and you'll never be perfect.

Life like y'all said is full of challenges to be met and vanquished or at least learned from. When I reach the end of mine I'll be kicking and screaming to carry on.
 
This year at Blade I plan on kicking Kevin in the bawlz once an hour for every week he's kept me waiting for his book.
The kicks will come out of nowhere, using the confusion of the crowd to my advantage. I've spent the last 6 weeks walking around with 5 gallon buckets of Park's #50 strapped to my ankles to build up bawlz-kicking strength.
I've lined the insides of the tongues of my shoes with 'rediscovered' 5160 from leaf springs and W2 from old files.
I've spent over 2 years studying the lost ancient Mayan school of CrushaDelBawlz and other neoprimitive bawlzbreaking methods.
Posts like this do nothing more than increase my rage and frustration, Kevin...
.
.
.
.
.
.
...and I'm pretty sure you owe me at least one cigar.

Just because of you I'm never, ever going to use O1 or L6.

...but I still want a cigar from you. ;)

See you at Blade, my friend.:D



I don't know man. Is it a good idea to kick a fellow in the jewels when that guy has, like, swords and shit?
 
I don't know man. Is it a good idea to kick a fellow in the jewels when that guy has, like, swords and shit?

...only if you can run faster than he can after you do!:D

You'll note that the illustrious Mr. Cashen has done everything in his power NOT to respond to my previous post... he's a humble man that wishes to offer his information free of the normal individualities and idiosyncrasies which conventionally plague the personalities reflected on web forums. A noble pursuit, certainly...

For myself, I much prefer goofing off and causing mischief - not that anyone here needs me to tell them that.;)

Good thread, Kevin - though you still owe me a cigar.
 
Matt,

I got a couple Hoyo de Monterey the other day that are very very nice.

I'll save you one

Sweet! I'll make sure we get in touch some time during the weekend, and will try to find something you might dig out of one of my humidors...


I'd also like to add to the original post's sentiment, but in a way that certainly is NOT in keeping with Kevin's recommendations, but are my one processes due to listening to Kevin. I attribute 90% of my heat treating improvements to Kevin. Not because I follow what he suggests in materials and processes, but in finding out what happens to the steel when I'm cycling it so that I can use the steel's REPEATABLE reactions to my advantage. No magic, just science!
 
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