My Buck 112lw (420hc) just out cut my Spyderco Delica 4 (VG10) - Is this a fluke?

Steelhog

Steelhog

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Back story. Recently I started to become interested in Bucks out of the blue, but had always previously been under the impression that 420hc was sub par. Doing some looking online (Cedric & Ada - youtube cut tester) In one of his cut test of his with a 110 in 420hc he gets 115 rope cuts opposed to his test with the delica in vg10 where he got 75 cuts. (FYI - I don't think he is any type of Buck fanboy. He has several videos making fun of the 110).

I recently picked up the 112lw in 420 and have a Delica 4. Both in hollow grind. In my opinion a much closer comparison. I decided to perform my own test with cardboard and see how it turned out. Both were sharpened by me and polished. At the start both easily shaved and cut newspaper. The 112 in 420hc in my home test also out cut the VG10. Both pushed until one was not cleanly cutting paper. I know none of these "tests" are scientific but for real world this is as real as it gets.

How in your opinion is this possible? Has this always been the case? Has Spyderco or Buck changed significantly or something else. Interested to hear your thoughts.........Please keep it clean folks.....
 
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Was the Delica you used in the test the SS-handled version? Because that's the only Delica 4 I know of that has a hollow-ground blade. Regardless, the Buck's hollow grind would also be taller and thinner than the one on the Delica. It could be the primary blade grind as well as the HT.

Jim
 
Buck also uses a thinner edge at the shoulders, which cuts better and longer.

If you have a way to measure the edge shoulders, see which one is thicker. The thinner one is likely to cut better.

Also see if you can measure the edge angle. Buck used a more acute edge angle. If you freehanded and followed the existing angle, you may be comparing a thinner, more acute edge to one that is thicker and less acute.
 
What Buck does with 420HC is excellent. There are a lot of makers and a lot of steels, and a lot of HT processes out there. Some better than others, and some a “cut” above the rest. I’m sure we could all name a few great ones, as well as a few that have disappointed us over the years. Buck just got theirs right, for the knives they make and the applications they intend. Nothing wrong with Spyderco, I have several and enjoy each one. Or any other brand or their process. But we just can’t discount Buck’s 420HC because it’s cheap and plentiful.. it’s that way for a reason :):thumbsup:
 
If you do the test repeatedly and get similar results, it's not a fluke. Do it a couple more times if you can, then you'll know for sure.

I didn't know there were delica's with hollow grinds, that's interesting. They're already pretty slicey.
 
Buck's "Edge 2000" uses a lower sharpening angle, which increases the amount of material a knife can cut through for a given amount of effort. The effect is profound and can easily overwhelm differences in heat treat or alloy content.
 
steelhog said:
Doing some looking online (Cedric & Ada - youtube cut tester) In one of his cut test of his with a 110 in 420hc he gets 115 rope cuts opposed to his test with the delica in vg10 where he got 75 cuts. (FYI - I don't think he is any type of Buck fanboy. He has several videos making fun of the 110).
Click to expand...

Oh, I can guarantee you Pete isn't a Buck fanboy. He's exceptionally fair, IMO.

But yeah, as others have said, it's all in the heat treat and geometry. Compare the Spyderco's VG-10 against Fallkniven's, or a custom knife, and I'm sure the difference will be quite large.

In other words, Bucks are some of the best bang for your... buck... (rimshot)
 
To add: I know Pete also currently has a Buck 110 in 20CV in for edge retention testing. I'm very much looking forward to those results - seeing what Paul Bos can do with a high-end steel.
 
I like Buck's 420HC, a lot. Recently acquired a Buck 212 from Copper & Clad and am highly impressed with the steel, its ergonomics as well as the blade geometry, one of Buck's strong points. It takes a superb edge and is very easy to sharpen -- like my Manly Wasp in 12C27. I like the edge-holding qualities of the super steels -- S30v, S35Vn, CTS-XHP, S110v, 20CV, even D2 -- but they take a whole lot longer to hone.
 
I'm a huge fan of both Buck and Spyderco. I have several knives from each company. I don't think anyone does frn quite as well as the seki spyders, but anyone looking for an inexpensive lightweight knife should definitely check out the 112 slim select and 110 slim select. When Buck runs their sales you can get them for right around $20 and their 420hc is no joke. I've got a couple of 110s in s90v also, as well as cpm154 and s30v. All good stuff. I've never been a fan of Spyderco's vg10....but the good thing about Spyderco is if you don't like one steel they have about a dozen others to choose from. :cool:
 
Lots of good replys here but we forgot rule number 1.

The sharpening.

When comparing differences in performance we have to rule out the sharpening first.

Whats fun about Pete's testing is another gentleman donated his time to make this spreadsheet that's kept updated with all the steel testing in the descriptions of all of Pete's testing videos

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...UmDLAP1hJ1dN_0q5G4tug/htmlview#gid=1607644856

The delica that got 75 cuts was from a Worksharp belt grinder Gizmo, it makes a very convex edge to increase the durablity at consequence to the edge retention in rope cut testing.

The buck that got the 115 cuts was a factory edge which is pretty dang good for 420hc and a factory edge.

There was a spyderco endura also tested with factory edge to 135 cuts

There also was a thicker fallkniven F1 convex grind with a flatter crisper KME fixed angle edge that got 170 cuts.

So we can't come to conclusions about Buck 420HC smashing on VG10 until the rule out the sharpening.

The same spyderco endura that got 135 got 260 cuts with the KME edge.

So I'd go back and make sure your hitting the angles, doing some good apex formation with burr formation and removal and play with a few different stones to see what's what.

Otherwise, it will be a wild goose chase for nothing.
 
tyyreaun said:
To add: I know Pete also currently has a Buck 110 in 20CV in for edge retention testing. I'm very much looking forward to those results - seeing what Paul Bos can do with a high-end steel.
Click to expand...
I don't know if CPM154 is still considered a "high-end" steel, but my Buck 110 SFO's from SK Blades (Smoke Jumper" 110 LT, and 'The Gentleman" (nickel silver bolsters and G10 covers) that have that blade steel (with BOS heat treat) have not lost their edge, after 4 to 6 consecutive months (each) of EDC and use.
I've not even needed the bottom of an (empty) ceramic coffee mug or a (dry) leather strop to refresh/tune up the edges yet. :)

Steelhog Steelhog Not a fluke. you can re-sharpen and test again to prove it. :)
 
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Hey all - really fantastic responses! Sorry I have not been keeping up with the thread better. So I think there are lots of good points but DeadboxHero DeadboxHero may have hit the nail on the head in terms of sharpening; and several others in regards to Bucks HT performance of steel. So for me thus far these are my thoughts and things I have learned from this thread and this simple test. FYI I will duplicate this test again to see what happens.

1. Buck-USA 420HC is no joke and could even outperform higher status steels even from the factory.
2. If you are an amateur home sharpener (Like me) you may actually get the better results from a well heat treated lower grade steel opposed to a premium steel that you may not be able to sharpen as well. (Even if they are both hair shaving sharp and equal to the eye - the lesser steel may still be sharpened better and have a more keen edge).
3. For many of us (even 10+year members like me) need to get over the whole higher status steel = higher performance perception. For me and this test at least; it proved that in my case the 420hc was better. Be it from the home sharping or factory property's.
4. I owe my Dad a call to say sorry for trashing buck for all these years.....lol. Maybe the old timers know a thing or two.....lol.
 
I need to pick up another buck 110. It’s been a few decades since I’ve had one. I do still have an old 112 floating around somewhere. Might have to pull it out and give it a work out.
 
steelhog said:
Back story. Recently I started to become interested in Bucks out of the blue, but had always previously been under the impression that 420hc was sub par. Doing some looking online (Cedric & Ada - youtube cut tester) In one of his cut test of his with a 110 in 420hc he gets 115 rope cuts opposed to his test with the delica in vg10 where he got 75 cuts. (FYI - I don't think he is any type of Buck fanboy. He has several videos making fun of the 110).

I recently picked up the 112lw in 420 and have a Delica 4. Both in hollow grind. In my opinion a much closer comparison. I decided to perform my own test with cardboard and see how it turned out. Both were sharpened by me and polished. At the start both easily shaved and cut newspaper. The 112 in 420hc in my home test also out cut the VG10. Both pushed until one was not cleanly cutting paper. I know none of these "tests" are scientific but for real world this is as real as it gets.

How in your opinion is this possible? Has this always been the case? Has Spyderco or Buck changed significantly or something else. Interested to hear your thoughts.........Please keep it clean folks.....
Click to expand...

I'm familiar with the Cedric & Ada channel. I haven't seen the Buck 110 video test. But I have seen his tests on 420HC by Case, Leatherman, and Buck(a Vantage Select was the example) which all of it seems to clock in at 60-67 cuts. Those results are definitely close enough to question if the BOS heat treatment is just a marketing tool.

He did a video on the SOG Vulcan in VG-10 that seemed to yield more impressive results at 99 cuts. SOG must definitely be running their VG-10 to a higher Rockwell than Spyderco.

Both Spyderco and Buck are much higher volume brands now versus 20 years ago. Usually when knife companies are widely sourced shortcuts start to come to light over the years to meet that volume.
 
No, I think you missed it. Other tests have shown VG10 doing better than Buck's 420HC. To find out what is going on, you have to control for variables.

You cannot compare the edge-wear potential of two steels unless you control for the edge angle and edge width. You didn't do that. And you seem determined not to do that simple control with your "duplicate" test.

Heat treat, steel alloy and blade geometry play big roles in wear resistance. Unless you control for those factors, your test has little value. Larrin did a story about how different testers get much different results from testing the same steels.

And you're missing the value of truly high-wear steels. Neither VG10 nor 420HC are high-wear steels. In Ankerson's tests, which don't include 420HC, VG =10 with a Spyderco heat treat ranked close to the bottom, with 160 cuts. The top steel got 2,400 cuts. High-wear steels will easily outperform low-wear steels and by a huge margin. A stock Spyderco Mule in Maxamet got 1,940 cuts.

A Spyderco Manix 2 in S110V with an edge thickness of 0.030 got 720 cuts. A Manix 2 in S110V with the edge reground to 0.005 inches got 1,120 cuts. Edge geometry matters.




steelhog said:
Hey all - really fantastic responses! Sorry I have not been keeping up with the thread better. So I think there are lots of good points but DeadboxHero DeadboxHero may have hit the nail on the head in terms of sharpening; and several others in regards to Bucks HT performance of steel. So for me thus far these are my thoughts and things I have learned from this thread and this simple test. FYI I will duplicate this test again to see what happens.

1. Buck-USA 420HC is no joke and could even outperform higher status steels even from the factory.
2. If you are an amateur home sharpener (Like me) you may actually get the better results from a well heat treated lower grade steel opposed to a premium steel that you may not be able to sharpen as well. (Even if they are both hair shaving sharp and equal to the eye - the lesser steel may still be sharpened better and have a more keen edge).
3. For many of us (even 10+year members like me) need to get over the whole higher status steel = higher performance perception. For me and this test at least; it proved that in my case the 420hc was better. Be it from the home sharping or factory property's.
4. I owe my Dad a call to say sorry for trashing buck for all these years.....lol. Maybe the old timers know a thing or two.....lol.
Click to expand...
 
Twindog said:
No, I think you missed it. Other tests have shown VG10 doing better than Buck's 420HC. To find out what is going on, you have to control for variables.

You cannot compare the edge-wear potential of two steels unless you control for the edge angle and edge width. You didn't do that. And you seem determined not to do that simple control with your "duplicate" test.

Heat treat, steel alloy and blade geometry play big roles in wear resistance. Unless you control for those factors, your test has little value. Larrin did a story about how different testers get much different results from testing the same steels.

And you're missing the value of truly high-wear steels. Neither VG10 nor 420HC are high-wear steels. In Ankerson's tests, which don't include 420HC, VG =10 with a Spyderco heat treat ranked close to the bottom, with 160 cuts. The top steel got 2,400 cuts. High-wear steels will easily outperform low-wear steels and by a huge margin. A stock Spyderco Mule in Maxamet got 1,940 cuts.

A Spyderco Manix 2 in S110V with an edge thickness of 0.030 got 720 cuts. A Manix 2 in S110V with the edge reground to 0.005 inches got 1,120 cuts. Edge geometry matters.
Click to expand...


Thanks for the comments and input to the thread. Honestly I'm not 100% sure how to respond to your most recent comment.........your top line comment makes is look like I somehow refused to properly control another test. I have only responded to this thread once and directly gave credit to another member for pointing out the variable of sharpening. Also you have made some assumptions about my knowledge or appreciation of top tier premium steels.

This thread was just about a VG10 Spyderco and 420hc Buck and an at home (just for fun) comparison. I stand by my comments in my first response but understand others will agree or disagree on what I have learned. For me 420hc proved to be fantastic and well worth the $25 bucks I spent on it. Does it compete with maxamet, 20cv or s110v with perfect edges = nope. But if you have a simple sharpening system I still think most will be better of with the 420hc opposed to s110v or even in this case VG10.

(FYI in terms of sharpening - 20* on a lansky system then finished with CBN emulsion and lastly a leather strop). I don't have calipers to measure the edge.
 
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