My Buck 112lw (420hc) just out cut my Spyderco Delica 4 (VG10) - Is this a fluke?

[Ankerson]

Well for sure on an atomic level it's physically the same.

As long as it's HTed correctly one would never see the difference in performance in real use. It's still 420HC and you can only do so much with it in a production knife.

Some of the Custom guys with good setups and knowledge might be able to do more depending. But there would be no reason for them to use 420HC when 440C and other steels are available.

 

[Danke42]

As long as it's HTed correctly one would never see the difference in performance in real use. It's still 420HC and you can only do so much with it in a production knife.

Some of the Custom guys with good setups and knowledge might be able to do more depending. But there would be no reason for them to use 420HC when 440C and other steels are available.

I think it's been said in a few spots that the Buck heat treat of 420HC is like an Everest style peak of performance.

 

[Ankerson]

I think it's been said in a few spots that the Buck heat treat of 420HC is like an Everest style peak of performance.

It's the geometry they put on the blades that makes the difference.

Take one blade and put the same edge on it as another blade they would perform the same. I have done it myself and tested them, it's 420HC... Put the standard 15 DPS edge bevel on it. It performs like 420HC is supposed to. Same edge geometry as I put on all the other knives I tested.

 

[Eli Chaps]

Whoa. Deja Vu all over again!

 

[Ankerson]

Whoa. Deja Vu all over again!

Yeah, I dunno how many times I have to keep saying it.

Compared to the other knives I tested using the same edge geometry as all the other ones it performs like 420HC should.

Doesn't matter what the edge geometry is as long as the knives tested are all the same. The steels will still perform the same relative to the other steels tested.

The same thing BUCK did.

They tested the 420HC with the new geometry against BG42 with the standard geometry (OLD) and the 420HC won on CATRA.

Then they tested both with the same geometry and the BG42 won as it should have all things being equal.

There aren't any magic heat treatments going on like the urban legends would have people believe.

It's all really very simple and straight forward.

 

[Steelhog]

Yeah, I dunno how many times I have to keep saying it.

Compared to the other knives I tested using the same edge geometry as all the other ones it performs like 420HC should.

Doesn't matter what the edge geometry is as long as the knives tested are all the same. The steels will still perform the same relative to the other steels tested.

The same thing BUCK did.

They tested the 420HC with the new geometry against BG42 with the standard geometry (OLD) and the 420HC won on CATRA.

Then they tested both with the same geometry and the BG42 won as it should have all things being equal.

There aren't any magic heat treatments going on like the urban legends would have people believe.

It's all really very simple and straight forward.

Any idea why more manufacturers are not largely following this path and nailing the geometry? That has to be more cost effective than pushing out poorly ground knives in a super steel......

 

[Ankerson]

Any idea why more manufacturers are not largely following this path and nailing the geometry? That has to be more cost effective than pushing out poorly ground knives in a super steel......

I would say they aren't poorly ground at all, some are better than others however.

Spyderco and Cold Steel are generally good as far as that goes. They have reasonable geometry and thickness behind the edge.

As for the others I suppose you could call them and ask.

20 DPS is still the standard as far as edge bevels go.

Some do 15 DPS or 18 DPS depending on the actual knife models.

Some of the best performing knives on my list have been production knives that haven't been reground....

Out of the top 8 knives on my list 3 of them are production knives, the rest are customs with one reground production knife.

And 6 out of the top 12, the rest are customs.

I would say they aren't doing bad at all and I have to tip my hat to Spyderco for putting out such high performing blades.

 

[James Y]

Any idea why more manufacturers are not largely following this path and nailing the geometry? That has to be more cost effective than pushing out poorly ground knives in a super steel......

I agree with Jim Ankerson that Spyderco does a very good job with their factory edges. Many of mine came with 15 DPS edges. I’ve never had to sharpen a new Spyderco out of the box before I could use it. I just use the factory edge until it needs resharpening.

Now, the saber-ground Delica 4 is going to come with a noticeably thicker/more obtuse edge than the FFG version, because the saber-ground blade’s primary grind is much thicker and more abrupt. Then it would be impossible to make its edge bevels as thin and narrow as the FFG version.

Some people do prefer a thicker blade like the saber-ground version, because they might want a knife for ‘rougher’ use, and don’t mind sacrificing slicing ability.

Jim

 

[TheTourist]

If I took a 420HC and any other alloy with a "4" in it, polished these two examples to the limits of their components, and gave them to a guy who knows how to slice in a "blind test," could he discern the difference?

If I changed a flat tire on your car while you were sleeping, could you tell which corner had the newbie--simply by accelerating from a stoplight?

Here's my reason for asking. I usually mirror polish edges for my clients, and not all of these knives are top shelf. Most of us recognize the tactile 'pull' of a perfect slice. So are the components the main aspect of a solid working knife?

 

[DeadboxHero]

Some of your clients will be oblivious some will notice right away which ones roll faster.
Idk a mirror polish is another subject too.

Not the best finish IMO for slicing since you smooth the teeth out. Great for a straight razor rubbing on the face but the edge dies faster in utility cutting more abrasive materials and losses that "grab" and "bite" quicker going smooth.

Also tests lower when cutting rope and cutting in CATRA.

If I took a 420HC and any other alloy with a "4" in it, polished these two examples to the limits of their components, and gave them to a guy who knows how to slice in a "blind test," could he discern the difference?

If I changed a flat tire on your car while you were sleeping, could you tell which corner had the newbie--simply by accelerating from a stoplight?

Here's my reason for asking. I usually mirror polish edges for my clients, and not all of these knives are top shelf. Most of us recognize the tactile 'pull' of a perfect slice. So are the components the main aspect of a solid working knife?

 

[Eli Chaps]

If I took a 420HC and any other alloy with a "4" in it, polished these two examples to the limits of their components, and gave them to a guy who knows how to slice in a "blind test," could he discern the difference?

If I changed a flat tire on your car while you were sleeping, could you tell which corner had the newbie--simply by accelerating from a stoplight?

Here's my reason for asking. I usually mirror polish edges for my clients, and not all of these knives are top shelf. Most of us recognize the tactile 'pull' of a perfect slice. So are the components the main aspect of a solid working knife?

I have next to no use for a mirror polish. On a multi-bladed traditional I might polish one blade, especially a Wharncliffe for cardboard but beyond that, no thanks.

Anyone who asks you to mirror polish a Milwaukee branded knife probably won't know the difference though. But that doesn't change that the "components" are a matter of physics.

 

[Lesknife]

Any idea why more manufacturers are not largely following this path and nailing the geometry? That has to be more cost effective than pushing out poorly ground knives in a super steel......

Mostly because not everyone can sharpen a knife that has higher hardness elements heat treated properly with the proper geometry. I’d say the average person doesn’t have the knowledge, skill or patience to learn and develop their sharpening skills so a very easy to sharpen type of steel with a lower hardness value is what production knife companies produce for them. If you want pro level then you pay for pro level but you also need to have the capability to sharpen and maintain the harder blade.

 

[Steelhog]

Mostly because not everyone can sharpen a knife that has higher hardness elements heat treated properly with the proper geometry. I’d say the average person doesn’t have the knowledge, skill or patience to learn and develop their sharpening skills so a very easy to sharpen type of steel with a lower hardness value is what production knife companies produce for them. If you want pro level then you pay for pro level but you also need to have the capability to sharpen and maintain the harder blade.

I think you may have misinterpreted my question as the way I phrased it was not the best; but your response kind of supports my though thought. To phase this better - (1) why are more big manufactures not pushing knives in lower grade steel (420hc or 12c27) with a high performance geometry and super clean edge? (2) A popular trend seems to be thick knives, with thick edges and a super steel.........

When I imagine this in my head, scenario 1 has to be better for both the manufacture and the average consumer, opposed to scenario 2. But scenario 2 seems to be a prevailing trend........

 

[Steelhog]

I think you may have misinterpreted my question as the way I phrased it was not the best; but your response kind of supports my though thought. To phase this better - (1) why are more big manufactures not pushing knives in lower grade steel (420hc or 12c27) with a high performance geometry and super clean edge? (2) A popular trend seems to be thick knives, with thick edges and a super steel.........

When I imagine this in my head, scenario 1 has to be better for both the manufacture and the average consumer, opposed to scenario 2. But scenario 2 seems to be a prevailing trend........

Or even if the manufacturers keep the super steel due to customer demand; why are they not getting thinner? The increased strength of modern super steels should pave the way to thinner blade stock that is just as strong and also cuts with even better performance.

 

[Ankerson]

Or even if the manufacturers keep the super steel due to customer demand; why are they not getting thinner? The increased strength of modern super steels should pave the way to thinner blade stock that is just as strong and also cuts with even better performance.

BUCK's really aren't that thin by the way.

They are .020" to .025" behind the edge... Somewhat normal for folders these days....

About the same as Spyderco and Cold Steel are these days.

Some Spyderco's are even thinner than that....

 

[TheTourist]

Or even if the manufacturers keep the super steel due to customer demand; why are they not getting thinner?

Funny you should mention that. As you know, I just purchased two Cold Steel 'tuff-lite' folders. I happened to be putzing with one of them while on the computer and I happened to look at the spine of the knife. For a 2.25 blade in a three inch handle it was thicker than some of my bigger blades.

Now, I had noticed this a few years ago, the knives with a thicker blade blank were hollow ground. Is this a trend?

 

[Ankerson]

Funny you should mention that. As you know, I just purchased two Cold Steel 'tuff-lite' folders. I happened to be putzing with one of them while on the computer and I happened to look at the spine of the knife. For a 2.25 blade in a three inch handle it was thicker than some of my bigger blades.

Now, I had noticed this a few years ago, the knives with a thicker blade blank were hollow ground. Is this a trend?

NO, they have been making knives like that for more than 100 years.

 

[Steelhog]

BUCK's really aren't that thin by the way.

They are .020" to .025" behind the edge... Somewhat normal for folders these days....

About the same as Spyderco and Cold Steel are these days.

Some Spyderco's are even thinner than that....

Oh - yep. Not even talking about Buck at this point. Mostly just asking about the industry in general.

 

[TheTourist]

I was not complaining, I was quite impressed. For example, my three inch Buck had four sturdy pins holding its handle together. I think the dashboard in my F-150 truck also has four bolts holding it in place.

I figure it this way, no matter which jackknife I'm carrying, I never feel "lop-sided." Even a staunch, all steel folder is weighed in ounces, not pounds.

If a knife is heavier, longer, thicker or simply bulkier, I have several leather pouches that fit my belt and sustain the size.

 

[Lesknife]

I think you may have misinterpreted my question as the way I phrased it was not the best; but your response kind of supports my though thought. To phase this better - (1) why are more big manufactures not pushing knives in lower grade steel (420hc or 12c27) with a high performance geometry and super clean edge? (2) A popular trend seems to be thick knives, with thick edges and a super steel.........

When I imagine this in my head, scenario 1 has to be better for both the manufacture and the average consumer, opposed to scenario 2. But scenario 2 seems to be a prevailing trend........

Well in keeping on track with the original thread topic and also with several references to the Buck edge thickness and grind, I was thinking more in the traditional types and slip joints not the modern edc , bush craft, and tactical.

When you look at the large knife dealers and their offerings in the traditional knives they have bulked up on the cheap and imported knives that generally are 420j2 or similar with hrc at around 54-56. In reading the feed back most like easy sharpening as their main reason for buying. The grinds vary but many are flat ground thin blade stock. That’s what I was considering.