My Buck 112lw (420hc) just out cut my Spyderco Delica 4 (VG10) - Is this a fluke?

[knarfeng]

Back story. Recently I started to become interested in Bucks out of the blue, but had always previously been under the impression that 420hc was sub par. Doing some looking online (Cedric & Ada - youtube cut tester) In one of his cut test of his with a 110 in 420hc he gets 115 rope cuts opposed to his test with the delica in vg10 where he got 75 cuts. (FYI - I don't think he is any type of Buck fanboy. He has several videos making fun of the 110).

I recently picked up the 112lw in 420 and have a Delica 4. Both in hollow grind. In my opinion a much closer comparison. I decided to perform my own test with cardboard and see how it turned out. Both were sharpened by me and polished. At the start both easily shaved and cut newspaper. The 112 in 420hc in my home test also out cut the VG10. Both pushed until one was not cleanly cutting paper. I know none of these "tests" are scientific but for real world this is as real as it gets.

How in your opinion is this possible? Has this always been the case? Has Spyderco or Buck changed significantly or something else. Interested to hear your thoughts.........Please keep it clean folks.....

Blade geometry is actually more important than blade steel. Proven fact, posted by many authorities.
And one which most blade steel testers ignore.

Buck optimized their blade geometry in the late 90's using extensive CATRA testing. They developed their super hollow grind blade profile, which at the time they named "Edge 2000".
CJ Buck posted about it here on BladeForums back in 2001.
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/catra-edge-testing-results.127499/
The graphs are gone, but you can still get the gist from the text.

Buck found that an optimized edge of 420HC would outperform their standard edge in cutting tests, even when the other blade was made of BG42, the wonder steel of that time. Of course, when they made blades of the same profile with both steels, the BG42 far outperformed the 420HC.

As Roman Landes famously stated, "Geometry cuts"

 

[Steelhog]

Blade geometry is actually more important than blade steel. Proven fact, posted by many authorities.
And one which most blade steel testers ignore.

Buck optimized their blade geometry in the late 90's using extensive CATRA testing. They developed their super hollow grind blade profile, which at the time they named "Edge 2000".
CJ Buck posted about it here on BladeForums back in 2001.
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/catra-edge-testing-results.127499/
The graphs are gone, but you can still get the gist from the text.

Buck found that an optimized edge of 420HC would outperform their standard edge in cutting tests, even when the other blade was made of BG42, the wonder steel of that time. Of course, when they made blades of the same profile with both steels, the BG42 far outperformed the 420HC.

As Roman Landes famously stated, "Geometry cuts"

This is really fantastic info! Thanks for posting.

 

[CVamberbonehead]

I havent done testing, but I have used Buck knives for years with no issues. I have never thought, "gee I wish I had spent $100 more to get a knife with the new flavor of the month "super steel". I dont know if its due to heat treat or geometry or whatever, I just know that my 110 does a fine job when I need it. It has gutted deer, worked on the farm, and done any chore I have needed it for. Best of all, when it does get dull it can be resharpened with basic stones and such, no need to set aside an hour of frustration to sharpen it. Buck also has them in the fancy steels too for those who want that, so everyone can be happy!

 

[DeadboxHero]

He don't mean to offend ya.



Don't get discouraged, Josey@Twindog wasn't trying to bite your head off. He means well and is sharing good advice to be helpful.

Keep exploring, the rabbit hole goes deeper.


Shawn.

Thanks for the comments and input to the thread. Honestly I'm not 100% sure how to respond to your most recent comment.........your top line comment makes is look like I somehow refused to properly control another test. I have only responded to this thread once and directly gave credit to another member for pointing out the variable of sharpening. Also you have made some assumptions about my knowledge or appreciation of top tier premium steels.

This thread was just about a VG10 Spyderco and 420hc Buck and an at home (just for fun) comparison. I stand by my comments in my first response but understand others will agree or disagree on what I have learned. For me 420hc proved to be fantastic and well worth the $25 bucks I spent on it. Does it compete with maxamet, 20cv or s110v with perfect edges = nope. But if you have a simple sharpening system I still think most will be better of with the 420hc opposed to s110v or even in this case VG10.

(FYI in terms of sharpening - 20* on a lansky system then finished with CBN emulsion and lastly a leather strop). I don't have calipers to measure the edge.

 

[Steelhog]

He don't mean to offend ya.



Don't get discouraged, Josey@Twindog wasn't trying to bite your head off. He means well and is sharing good advice to be helpful.

Keep exploring, the rabbit hole goes deeper.


Shawn.

I think you are right. No offense taken and I honestly am great full for the help and good conversation. Text often does not properly convey intent and often is no dbout influenced by the reader (me) and there current mood.

 

[Eli Chaps]

Now if only someone like, I don't know, Spyderco was to work with a premier steel manufacturer to come up with a steel that would allow for lower edge angles and thinner geometries without overly compromising edge stability... Oh wait...

Geometry!

And in this case I would add blade geometry too. That Delica is really a Saber grind and they get pretty fat pretty fast. Pushing through cardboard will make it wedge more and may require more force and result in more wear. Just a thought.

 

[tyyreaun]

And one which most blade steel testers ignore.

I mean, you’re right, but your statement also sounds very accusatory. Some testers, like Pete from Cedric and Ada, do what they can to reduce geometry variance. Even then, though, unless he had the money to commission his own run of mules in all the steels he wanted to test, he does the best he can.

 

[knarfeng]

I mean, you’re right, but your statement also sounds very accusatory. Some testers, like Pete from Cedric and Ada, do what they can to reduce geometry variance. Even then, though, unless he had the money to commission his own run of mules in all the steels he wanted to test, he does the best he can.

Probably does sound "accusatory". That is, in fact, why I included that sentence. It's a pet peeve of mine.

There are things you can do to reduce the impact of blade geometry in cutting tests. But a lot of testers totally ignore the issue, take no steps to reduce the impact of it in their test method, then trumpet the resulting inaccurate "test results". And people take those results as gospel. Incorrect data is worse than no data.

But I digress. Test methods are a topic for a different thread.
Carry on.

 

[lambertiana]

\
And one which most blade steel testers ignore.

And at least one well-known tester shows results for various steels, then regrinds the blades to thinner behind the edge and gets significantly better results with the same knife. That just means he is testing the geometry more than he is testing the steel.

 

[DeadboxHero]

Ankerson
Help him out Jim

And at least one well-known tester shows results for various steels, then regrinds the blades to thinner behind the edge and gets significantly better results with the same knife. That just means he is testing the geometry more than he is testing the steel.

 

[jbmonkey]

Bucks edge 2000 is setup for 30 inclusive plus/minus a few degrees. for years I put a new microbevel at 40 inclusive on them and didn't know it. one day someone posted and Jeff, I think, answered about using the 30 inclusive on a sharpmaker. now I touch up all modern Bucks on 30 inclusive side of the sharpmaker. what a difference that made on slicing. wouldnt have bet it until I saw it myself. Knarfeng is right on......geometry does matter.

 

[Ankerson]

Ankerson
Help him out Jim

Not sure if I really want to get into it or not... And rehash everything all over again that I have said going on 10 years now.

With the statement that was made it means that I would have to go all the way back to the basics again... And start explaining it all there..

But I agree with all of the ones that said geometry matters because they are correct and leave it right there.

 

[jakemex]

Too many variables... come on. Personal preference and ymmv applies here.

 

[Ankerson]

Blade geometry is actually more important than blade steel. Proven fact, posted by many authorities.
And one which most blade steel testers ignore.

Buck optimized their blade geometry in the late 90's using extensive CATRA testing. They developed their super hollow grind blade profile, which at the time they named "Edge 2000".
CJ Buck posted about it here on BladeForums back in 2001.
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/catra-edge-testing-results.127499/
The graphs are gone, but you can still get the gist from the text.

Buck found that an optimized edge of 420HC would outperform their standard edge in cutting tests, even when the other blade was made of BG42, the wonder steel of that time. Of course, when they made blades of the same profile with both steels, the BG42 far outperformed the 420HC.

As Roman Landes famously stated, "Geometry cuts"

Yeah, everything matters, geometry and sharpening are huge though, either can make a massive difference in the results.

Mostly geometry though, I think that I showed that more than enough over the years.

 

[MyLegsAreOk]

Buck's "Edge 2000" uses a lower sharpening angle, which increases the amount of material a knife can cut through for a given amount of effort. The effect is profound and can easily overwhelm differences in heat treat or alloy content.

Are you saying Buck has a less steep angle like say 32 instead of 28? The less aggressive the angle the longer it'll last it my thinking.

Blade geometry is actually more important than blade steel. Proven fact, posted by many authorities.
And one which most blade steel testers ignore.

Buck optimized their blade geometry in the late 90's using extensive CATRA testing. They developed their super hollow grind blade profile, which at the time they named "Edge 2000".
CJ Buck posted about it here on BladeForums back in 2001.
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/catra-edge-testing-results.127499/
The graphs are gone, but you can still get the gist from the text.

Buck found that an optimized edge of 420HC would outperform their standard edge in cutting tests, even when the other blade was made of BG42, the wonder steel of that time. Of course, when they made blades of the same profile with both steels, the BG42 far outperformed the 420HC.

As Roman Landes famously stated, "Geometry cuts"

Wow this is cool to learn about. I want to get people who buy cheap knifes to get ally or domestic made knives so push towards Buck and Kershaw. This will give me some ammo helping to sell a Buck over a Civivi. Still, I knew about geometry that's why I had to buy a system like the Wicked Edge (or KME or Lansky thing) and stop free-handing it on the Sharpmaker.

 

[knarfeng]

Are you saying Buck has a less steep angle like say 32 instead of 28? The less aggressive the angle the longer it'll last it my thinking.

No, it's the opposite.
IIRC, Buck's edge angle is on the order of 12° per side, for an inclusive angle of 24°. I know it's more acute than 15° per side from my use of a Sharpmaker and a Sharpie. The 15° setting is more obtuse than Buck's.

But, blade geometry is more than the edge angle. It's also the thickness of the blade above the edge, and how the profile of the blade tapers from the spine down to the edge. As one of the fellas pointed out earlier in the thread, a thick blade can bind in the medium being cut. That blade can bind regardless of the edge angle if the blade is thick above the edge.

 

[MyLegsAreOk]

No, it's the opposite.
IIRC, Buck's edge angle is on the order of 12° per side, for an inclusive angle of 24°. I know it's more acute than 15° per side from my use of a Sharpmaker and a Sharpie. The 15° setting is more obtuse than Buck's.

But, blade geometry is more than the edge angle. It's also the thickness of the blade above the edge, and how the profile of the blade tapers from the spine down to the edge. As one of the fellas pointed out earlier in the thread, a thick blade can bind in the medium being cut. That blade can bind regardless of the edge angle if the blade is thick above the edge.

Oh true true. Apostle P filled me in about why he was saying "thin behind the bezel" years back on youtube. Thanks for clearing that up about the angle they use as I would suspect 15 and was scratching my head at that post. Do you know if Buck tell customers that so these same customers are not grinding when throwing one of their blades in a lansky (which is the easiest and most popularly to attain system)?

 

[lambertiana]

Yeah, everything matters, geometry and sharpening are huge though, either can make a massive difference in the results.

Mostly geometry though, I think that I showed that more than enough over the years.

Exactly. In tests in abrasive materials, all things being equal, a high carbide steel, especially hard carbides like V, will last longer. But geometry makes a huge difference. As was noted when Buck went to the E2K, a decent steel with optimum geometry will outlast a super steel with poor geometry.

 

[Ankerson]

Exactly. In tests in abrasive materials, all things being equal, a high carbide steel, especially hard carbides like V, will last longer. But geometry makes a huge difference. As was noted when Buck went to the E2K, a decent steel with optimum geometry will outlast a super steel with poor geometry.

Actually no it won't...

It takes a lot to overcome that much of a difference in wear resistance, a whole lot.

Lets keep things on planet earth here.

For steels that are somewhat close geometry can make some difference that can sway the results one way or the other. But for steels that are far apart performance wise that will NEVER happen. At least not in any above board honest test.

In short 420HC will NEVER even come close to something in the S110V range, doesn't matter what the geometry is. Not even in anyone's wildest drug induced fantasy delusions.

 

[Ankerson]

Just to clear a few things up here for some as these threads seem to go sideways pretty fast with people quoting urban legends and such.

420HC is 420HC, and it's the same as 420HC, it doesn't matter who does the heat treating as long as it's done correctly. Any good heat treater can heat treat 420HC.

There is no magic here. These are production knives, not one of a kind customs that are hammered out one blade at a time.

Bucks 420HC they use is the same 420HC that others use and or have used, it's the same steel.

Now, BUCK has done their research and testing and puts great blade and edge geometry on their knives so they cut well.

But it's not magic, it's geometry, and the steel is still 420HC.

Carry on.