My new Manix, review and observations

M Wadel said:
gunmike

will there be any destruction testing of the manix?
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No sir! Unless it is unintended destruction, which I can't imagine myself doing. This is my new HD folding knife for EDC, hopefully for a very long time. I don't have the funds (plus my wife would kick my butt for destroying a present she gave to me) to be destroying an over $100 knife. I will probably be doing some destructive testing on the 6 new beaters I got for Christmas, but I am actually planning on getting useful info from them. Being cheap liner locks, I have a feeling that they will start to have serious problems when I start with chopping or batoning, but I won't be in the "breaking" mindset, just testing, and if they fail they fail. If I had a donated Manix I would be willing to push the limits and beat the crap out of it in serious hard use and some abusive testing, but not on my dime. I look at that like some of the Glock abuse tests I've seen, it's really cool to know how much abuse they can take before failing, I just won't use my expensive tool to test those limits.
 
thombrogan said:
this one took time for me to accept; quickly unwrap the ties with your fingers.
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How dare you. Utter that again, I'll have you banned from the forums, sir. :D

Or, the wire cutters on leatherman pliers are durned near perfect for this task...
 
Last night I chopped off some tiny limbs of the Christmas tree that I dismantled with cutters and my cordless skilsaw. No chips, no loss of sharpness. I even pressed hard with a slice and took those little buggers off (maybe 1/4" to 1/3" diameter). Nothing bigger because I was too damn tired and busy to put forth the effort. I also made sure to cut straight and true, with no side loading.

Hey Sodak, check your e mail, you have a Spyderco R2 with an STR splinter picker tip in the mail to you. Check the e mail for details. Also, thanks for defending me against Thom's sillyness. We are looking for realistic and logical solutions here, and untwisting a twist tie is just a ridiculous proposal. I mean, untwisting a twist tie?! Utter nonsense, I tell you!
 
thombrogan said:
DoW said:
Simple stainlesses like 12C27, intended to offer good corrosion resistance without sacrificing other desirable qualities in a knife like edge stability at low angles, only seem to have a small following.

All of which is pretty amazing .... it's as though efficient cutting has become a secondary consideration for a large segment of the knife industry.
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I think the reason that most of us don't want to consider such statements is because we've spent several hundreds of dollars on knives which could be outperformed by $13 Scandi-ground knives in terms of sharp, stable edges. It's easier to swallow a quart of blood and some teeth than to swallow a drop of pride. Also, with the edge-geometries with which many of us are familiar, the 'chock full of alloys' steels can outperform the L1s, 12C27Ms, and 1095s of the world.

Tested that theory out myself this weekend. Put about a 29 included degree edge on my VG10-bladed pocketknife and opened lots of presents and cut down lots of cardboard and plastic boxes and several plastic bottles. It micro-chipped within the first few uses, but was thin enough and had polished backbevels, so it still did 'okay.' Later added a 35 included degree cutting edge of similar polish and it cut lots more plastic and carboard with no micro-chipping.
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Interesting observations with the VG10, I'm going to guess the knife is a Spyderco ... I've noticed that while their VG10 develops minute chipping with a 15 deg/side microbevel, things improve radically at 17 deg/side. So it seems that, at least with this steel and I'm assuming others, for a given hardness and heat treatment, there's sort of a "critical apex angle" below which edge stability and carbide tear-out problems become very evidence, and above which these cease to be serious concerns.

I would like to see knife manufacturers be somewhat specific about this. The cost of necessary testing shouldn't be prohibitive for a company to issue a brief comment with a particular model stating something about intended scope of use and suitable sharpening angles for that product based upon steel used, heat treat, blade thickness/profile, etc. I wouldn't even mind if a manufacturer limited their warranty based upon such info and guidelines, generally IMO knife consumers would benefit from having the manufacturer state somewhat specifically what they are claiming the knife can, and cannot do.

Though perhaps manufacturers showing such cutlery consciousness would hurt their sales, being branded heretics by the true believers in knife myth and lore. ;)
 
Dog of War said:
Interesting observations with the VG10, I'm going to guess the knife is a Spyderco ...
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What better way to hijack a thread reviewing one Spyderco knife than with another? Caly3!

Dog of War said:
Though perhaps manufacturers showing such cutlery consciousness would hurt their sales, being branded heretics by the true believers in knife myth and lore.
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There are so many contradictory myths it's impossible to have any product and not be some sort of heretic.
 
Dog of War said:
So it seems that, at least with this steel and I'm assuming others, for a given hardness and heat treatment, there's sort of a "critical apex angle" below which edge stability and carbide tear-out problems become very evidence, and above which these cease to be serious concerns.

I would like to see knife manufacturers be somewhat specific about this. The cost of necessary testing shouldn't be prohibitive for a company to issue a brief comment with a particular model stating something about intended scope of use and suitable sharpening angles for that product based upon steel used, heat treat, blade thickness/profile, etc.
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There might be more factors than we know. Plus, when my knife's edge microchipped, it still performed okay, probably even sliced better. A 14 degrees per side edge might be too thin for my enjoyment of push-cutting edges, but could be long-lasting slicing joy for others.
 
Thanks Gunmike1! Yeah, we'll get Thom back on the right track. I'll be in touch about the R2, and thanks!
 
Hi Gunmike,

Thanx for the test and comments. We always appreciate "real world" experience from afi's and we appreciate the fact that some will take the time to share their thoughts, experiences and opinions. It helps us to continually improve our products.

VG-10 and S30V are both excellent steels offering superior performance and reliability in most areas. They are still relatively new steels that will benefit from time and use.

Hey Wardog,

When we began making knives (1981), manufacturers wouldn't even say what steel was in the knife, much less give info about it. This was pretty "secretive" stuff back then. Spyderco was pretty much the pioneer in naming steels in blades and giving chemistry's.

As an industry, we've come a long way.

Even our Chinese byrd has the "real" steel name on the blade.

Very specific info may be valuable to a small group of junky's but is also valuable to competitors, which is why this stuff was so secretive back then.

We've even gone so far as to say that we believe our steels are good enough to carry a 30 degree inclusive angle.

There is also a lot to be said for letting the knife stand on its own. No hype, no heretics.

Thom,

myths? what myths? ;)

sal
 
Hi, Sal. I really give you and Spyderco a lot of credit for the quality and consistency of heat treat I've seen in your VG-10. No doubt this has a lot to do with how knives like the Delica 4, Caly 3, and of course my favorite the old FRN Calypso Jr quickly become standards of excellence among serious knife users.

Credit also for the 8Cr13MoV in the Byrd line, at 61 HRC these bargain blades offer performance that eclipses a lot of knives costing much more. I'm hoping the upcoming Flaybyrd shows strong influence from the Calypso lines.
 
Sal Glesser said:
Hi Gunmike,

Thanx for the test and comments. We always appreciate "real world" experience from afi's and we appreciate the fact that some will take the time to share their thoughts, experiences and opinions. It helps us to continually improve our products.

VG-10 and S30V are both excellent steels offering superior performance and reliability in most areas. They are still relatively new steels that will benefit from time and use.

Hey Wardog,

When we began making knives (1981), manufacturers wouldn't even say what steel was in the knife, much less give info about it. This was pretty "secretive" stuff back then. Spyderco was pretty much the pioneer in naming steels in blades and giving chemistry's.

As an industry, we've come a long way.

Even our Chinese byrd has the "real" steel name on the blade.

Very specific info may be valuable to a small group of junky's but is also valuable to competitors, which is why this stuff was so secretive back then.

We've even gone so far as to say that we believe our steels are good enough to carry a 30 degree inclusive angle.

There is also a lot to be said for letting the knife stand on its own. No hype, no heretics.

Thom,

myths? what myths? ;)

sal
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Thanks for the comments, Sal. I just wanted to give a no BS report on my impressions and some objective testing and subjective feedback on what I personally like and what I think would suit me better on the knife. I obviously had an overall positive impression enough of the knife from the passaround to ask my wife to buy it for me, but I think everyone benefits from hearing the good, bad, and the ugly (the only ugly in this case was my idiocy with a .032" piece of metal in a twist tie). With Spyderco my experiences have been good, your customer service has been very good the only time I got a knife with blade play (replaced in less than 2 weeks), and your Byrd line is an unbelievable value. Even my "chippy" Native has been lowered to 15 degrees inclusive, and hasn't shown any chipping with a 15 degree per side microbevel. It is now much sharper than the Manix was from your factory and hasn't chipped on thick plastic packaging or fingertips and finger nails (You can read the good, the bad, and the idiotic about that in the in the toolshed forum. Repeat after me, keep all body parts out of the line of blade travel!). I know that I appreciate your candor and willingness to share a lot of information (lock strengths, CATRA results, ect.) that most manufacturers wouldn't dream of sharing, and your willingness to listen to the ELU and refine your designs based on that feedback. I also like your utility over beauty philosophy, though some Spyderco's are quite pleasing to the eye. OK, ass kissing session over! Give us our 13C26 knife, with very thin and acute edge and high hollow grind!:) Just Kidding (but the knife would be nice)! Thanks again for the response, Sal.
 
Sal Glesser said:
VG-10 and S30V are both excellent steels offering superior performance and reliability in most areas. They are still relatively new steels that will benefit from time and use.
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Sal,

I've been very pleased with my Native in VG-10. I love the balance and feel, and the slim point for piercing. I'm a little concerned that I've been too enthusiastic with my sharpening (a newly formed skill), and that the steel is wearing rather quickly back from the point.

So the questions I have for you are:

How much more wear resistant is S30V than VG-10? Will it take a better edge?

How can I justify to my wife my pressing need for a full-sized Manix?!

Thanks for a great product!

Tim Gates
 
Thanx for the kind words. We appreciate the fact that you will purchase our knives, care enough about them to make them a point of study, and care about the mfrs and other afi's enough to share.

Tim,

Sharpening is a very valuable skill. It teaches patience, accuracy, focus, patience, attention to detail, appreciation of very hard substances, did I say patience? And the rewards are honest.

S30V, according to out CATRA seems to have better wear resistance. We believe VG-10 will get sharper. (CATRA tests on sharpness are not as effective, IMO, as the wear resistance results).

Knives to men are like shoes to women. How many pairs of shoes does she have?

Thom,

I have watched your interest and understanding of knives and steel blossom over the years. I proud to say that you have become a dedicated member of the small but very insane steel junky's community.

---------------------------------------------------------

The entire "business chain" from; raw materials, invention, design, manufacturing, marketing, selling, distributing, shipping, warrantees, insurance, credit, etc. ALL EXISTS to service the ELU (End Line User). Remove the ELU from the equation and the entire business chain falls like a house of cards. We all work for you!
 
Sal Glesser said:
Sharpening is a very valuable skill. It teaches patience, accuracy, focus, patience, attention to detail, appreciation of very hard substances, did I say patience? And the rewards are honest.
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Until earlier this year I couldn't sharpen a thing. But just as you described it, gain some knowledge, get good equipment, and then the patience, focus, anal retentiveness, err, attention to detail, and more patience start to pay off. It is very rewarding to get a good sharp edge on your own.


Sal Glesser said:
Knives to men are like shoes to women. How many pairs of shoes does she have?
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I have used the same argument with my wife sveral times.

Mike
 
I'd agree that VG10 does seem to take a sharper edge than the S30V ones I have. Still that is no reason not to get another same model knife in a different steel. :) In fact haveing the same model in a different steel is a very good way to learn about the differences in steels. As a side note I've also ground my VG10 very thin, under 10 degrees, without any chipping issues, or carbide pull out. I'm starting to beleive the carbide pull/ripping out is just a myth.

Gunmike sorry to read about the fingers. Heal quickly and get back to thinning those thick blades. :)
 
Hi db,

That's pretty thin. Let us know if you have any probs.

Not a myth on carbides breaking out on thin edges, but it more depends on the grain structure.

homogenous grain sizes as a result of processing, eg; particle metalurgy (CPM-S30V) do not ususally have the problem, nor do very refined steels (VG-10, BG-42).

We found it to be a problem with 440C and MRS-30 because of the large amount of carbon in those ingot steels, but only when the edges got down to .1mm. I'm not a metalurgist, so maybe we can get more info, but as I understand, it's carbon migration in heat treat cooling that causes accumulated carbides to "clump" in areas. When these areas are right on the edge of a very thin edge, they tend to "break out".

sal
 
Dog of War said:
I'm assuming others, for a given hardness and heat treatment, there's sort of a "critical apex angle" below which edge stability and carbide tear-out problems become very evidence, and above which these cease to be serious concerns.
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Yeah :

http://www.cutleryscience.com/articles/edge_stability_review.html

Landes quantified it by direct observed measurement, and showed how high carbide edges actually took more damage and included magnified shots of carbides breaking out of the edge. Johnston noted the same thing years ago on rec.knives, anyone who works with knotty wood or any aggregate material understands there is a cross section limitation which when you exceed the segregates tear free. Landes also noted the irregular behavior of ATS-34 (class) which is obvious when you look at the high mag shots. Some parts of the edge intersect low carbide areas and thus behave similar to 52100 (class) while other parts hit huge carbide chunks and fall apart. Boye's knives are even worse. I noted this years ago and described how they can even self-sharpen in coarse finishes as the edge keeps fracturing.

I would like to see knife manufacturers be somewhat specific about this.
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Considering it directly contradicts the promotion of high carbide steels it is kind of a problem.

gunmike1 said:
Even my "chippy" Native has been lowered to 15 degrees inclusive, and hasn't shown any chipping with a 15 degree per side microbevel.
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I would hope not as that is how axes are sharpened. In general I would hold knives to a higher standard.

Give us our 13C26 knife, with very thin and acute edge and high hollow grind
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And a sensible hardening. If we are just getting to pick steels, I want a F2 calypso jr., 66/67 HRC.

gunmike1 said:
I have used the same argument with my wife sveral times.
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Yeah, but did it ever work.

-Cliff
 
db said:
I'd agree that VG10 does seem to take a sharper edge than the S30V ones I have. Still that is no reason not to get another same model knife in a different steel. :) In fact haveing the same model in a different steel is a very good way to learn about the differences in steels. As a side note I've also ground my VG10 very thin, under 10 degrees, without any chipping issues, or carbide pull out. I'm starting to beleive the carbide pull/ripping out is just a myth.

Gunmike sorry to read about the fingers. Heal quickly and get back to thinning those thick blades. :)
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Is that 10 included or per side? I have an FRN Calypso that I took down to around 10 per side (IIRC) that had some chipping issues, but putting a small microbevel on it solved that problem. I've had much worse chipping with D2 at the same angle. So far, VG 10 has performed quite well for me, I'm not blaming the Caly, I think I just ran up against it's limit at that geometry and heat treat.

As an aside, I've had fantastic success with putting a microbevel on it with something like a DMT 600, and finishing it with a Thiers Isaard paste that I got for my straight razor from classicshaving.com. It has some diamonds around 0.5 microns in it, I think. Even better than the typical green chromium oxide, from what I've seen. I can load a strop with this, and after 10 or 15 licks be treetop trimming, and over 3 inches on newsprint. Haven't got any extra yellow pages laying around yet, Gunmike1. I'll throw a tube into the box for you as soon as I can get to the Post Office.
 
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