My new Manix, review and observations

[gunmike1]

Topic drift - By the way, thank you again for the new Caly 3 in VG10! That's one of the best folders that I've had the pleasure of using - I just love it!

BTW thanks to Sal for donating a Caly 3 for passaround (along with the G10 meadowlark, which I also look forward to using). Lucky me, I was the first to sign up, and I look forward to trying out that bad bay. It may be costly, though, as a passaround is how I got sold on the Manix. There is something to be said for donating the knives and letting them speak for themselves to some ELU's, I know I appreciate the chance to try out high dollar knives like that for free due to the generousity of the maker/manufacturer.

Even bigger thanks to you, Sodak, for letting me use such a large chunk of your collection of knives. They are exactly the types of knives that I've been wanting to try for a while, very high quality, but in steels I haven't tried yet and a whole different class of knives than I have used before. Thanks again, and if you want to try any others from my meager collection let me know.

While I'm thanking everyone, thanks to Cliff to letting me see what a truly thin and acute ground knife can do by lending me the modded U2, Jess Horn, and Meadowlark. I swear I will get that Jess Horn out to Krein soon thin out and we'll see how ZDP does with a 4 degree per side edge, and S30V also with my Native that I used for surgery. I have a feeling the Jess Horn will start to outperform the U2, but we'll see.

 

[Thomas W]

by horrible misuse in the industry such as Kershaws used of relatively soft 13C26 in thick and obtuse edged knives.

Sorry to step into this thread, but felt like I needed to again defend ourselves as a manufacturer.

Kershaw continues to work with 13C26 and the blade geometry used on such knives. We continue to closely work with Sandvik as well as with the professional’s that do our HT. We have gotten those two together to ensure the steel is being heat treated properly.
In regards to corrosion and 13C26 there has been a plethora of salt spray tests at multiple hardness’s, all with surprising results.
Qualified, outside, non-biased folks have been utilized and continue to do independent real world testing on our 13C26, and a few changes have been made based on their findings. Their conclusions with 13C26 have also been very positive, and performance results have been very satisfying.
You can also read everyday on this forum, the multiple users of Kershaw’s 13C26, and their personal experience pleasure with edge retention and performance.

I’m not sure what more a manufacturer is to do to satisfy some on this board, but after 2 informative 13C26 threads, using the term “horrible misuse” of 13C26 in regards to Kershaw, IMHO is a statement that is way off base.

Sorry again, now back to your topic.

 

[thombrogan]

Hi, Thomas W!

I've recently had the pleasure of using some of Kershaw's Storm and Storm II folding pocketknives featuring Sandvik 13C26 blade steel and Ken Onion's crafty designs. While I did enjoy such cutting fun, the edges on those knives were extremely thick. Does Kershaw/KAI have any plans to thin out those edges in the future?

Thanks,

Thom

 

[Thomas W]

Hi Thom,

We recently changed the Storms over from being flat ground to a hollow grind. I think people will find that the geometry is much thinner with the HG.
Like I mentioned in my last post, we continue to make adjustments where needed. Right now the Storms are pretty much dialed in both with the HT and geometry.

We have learned a lot since adopting 13C26, and look to continue to make the best knives we can.

 

[SOLEIL]

Hey Thomas,

Screw Cliff, you guys are doing a great job!

 

[thombrogan]

Right now the Storms are pretty much dialed in both with the HT and geometry.

Thanks, Thomas W!

Very exciting year for knives, this 2007. I hope 'dialed in' means 0.01" at the top of the edge.

Gunmike1,

Any new findings on your Manix's limits?

 

[gunmike1]

Thanks, Thomas W!

Very exciting year for knives, this 2007. I hope 'dialed in' means 0.01" at the top of the edge.

Gunmike1,

Any new findings on your Manix's limits?

No new findings on the Manix's limits, my finger tips getting surgically split by my Native kind of slowed down my knife testing, though I plan to thin it out as soon as my D8XX arrives to 10 per side. My final sharpening isn't as good as it was pre-splitting my fingers, but as they heal I'm sure it will come back to me.

As for the Storms, I handled a Storm 2 in Walmart, and it was hollow ground, but the edge was still a bit thick for my tastes. Of course, so was the edge on my Jess Horn, but the Storm 2 did look quite obtuse and thick compared to my Spydercos. I doubt the salesman would appreciate me bringing in calipers to check the thickness and trig out the angle, but it looked like it was well over 15 per side, probably over 20 per side. Without measuring I'm just conjecturing, either way if I bought one I would thin it out as I do most of my knives. Anyone have any caliper measurements and trig estimates on the angles?

Thomas, I understand you defending your products and I have seen a lot of positive feedback on the Storms. It still won't change the fact in a lot of our minds that there are more ideal designs out there to utilize the edge stability properties of 13C26. The bottom line is I wish you well in your business, and if they sell who cares what some of us on the net think? Like Sal had mentioned earlier, the mass market is your bread and butter, it's what pays the bills for you. As a business you obviously try to serve them with a product that performs at or above their expectations for the price point, while maximizing your profits. A lot of the time that will collide with the views of a lot of steel junkies and people who like extremely thin edges that get very sharp and stay that way. And it doesn't change the fact that just because your knives perform well and get positive feedback that the steel could be used in a way that suits it's properties better. Personally, I'm hoping to see a manufacturer step up to the plate with a very thin and high hardness design in that steel (see the 13C26 thread that we all know about), but whether or not a business case for a knife like that can be made I don't know.

 

[db]

I find it pretty humorous that people claim that manufactures are wrongly designing their knives in 13c based on a theory of high hardness and thinness. No one has even had or used such a blade yet and some are taking the theory as if it was fact. Even Larrin who uses a lot of 13C only runs it around RC 61. Maybe a RC 64 with a 5 degree polished edge will work great. But For what?

 

[Dog of War]

Kershaw continues to work with 13C26 and the blade geometry used on such knives. We continue to closely work with Sandvik as well as with the professional’s that do our HT. We have gotten those two together to ensure the steel is being heat treated properly.

Hi, Thomas ... wanted to say this is the kind of thing I like to hear from a manufacturer. I think we all appreciate continual research and efforts to make a better product, and also think you'll find that changes for the better will be acknowledged by folks on these forums. Maybe some of us come off as hyper-critical steel junkies sometimes, but that's just the direction our interest in the hobby has taken. Ultimately we just want to see continuing improvment in available cutlery products, which IMO puts us all on the same side.

Question: Am I correct in assuming that the new Kershaw 13C26 models coming out soon will have the newer heat treat, and thinner geometry than, for example, the earlier Storms? I've been looking forward to testing some 13C26 blades, but have held off, figuring there could be some older stock still for sale out there in the existing models. Maybe an unfounded concern though the JYD and NW models look quite appealing to me.

 

[gunmike1]

I find it pretty humorous that people claim that manufactures are wrongly designing their knives in 13c based on a theory of high hardness and thinness. No one has even had or used such a blade yet and some are taking the theory as if it was fact. Even Larrin who uses a lot of 13C only runs it around RC 61.

When you read about some of the properties of the steel, like it is used on razor blades, maybe that has some influence on my thoughts. Oh yeah, Verhoeven's work was pretty interesting also (I know you agree with Cliff once every few centuries, but he does have some interesting links on cutleryscience.com if you are interested). As for designing the knives wrong or heat treating based on the manufacturers recommendations, I wonder if coming in to Sandvik with an existing, thick tactical design will change what they say to you regarding the steel & heat treat (not to mention the economics of both) vs. coming to them with an extremely thin, lighter duty design that you are willing to sell for more than $32 at Walmart (NOT an attack on Kershaw or Walmart, that is a tremendous value, like the $40 Native, just an observation) will change what they tell you about the heat treat and steel properties? Just speaking out of ignorance here, as I really have no clue, just making some observations.

Maybe a RC 64 with a 5 degree polished edge will work great. But For what?

After using the Fallkniven U2 @ 62 RC at 4 degrees per side it becomes obvious why, it cuts like a mother. It is a great precision cutter that just glides through most anything you put in it's path. It is a great paring knife, and will cut cardboard for an extremely long time before it gets dull, which for that knife is scrape shaving, but it still cuts through the cardboard easily with it's thin cross section. It is very easy to sharpen, and the thing cuts unlike any other knife I have ever used. It opens packages extremely easily, and is a great light duty cutter. I can get it to push cut the Yellow Pages an average of well over 3" from where I hold it, which beats the burred razor blades I tested (all of the 4 I have recently found have been burred), and frankly my sharpening skills suck compared to a lot of people on this board. The geometry just makes it that easy to sharpen. And this is with a steel that is basically S30V with 1/2 the vanadium, I think most would agree this isn't the ideal steel for this geometry.

Using a more appropriate steel (say, something with carbides in the .6 micron range, made for razor blades, ect., wait, that sounds a little like Verhoeven's description of 13C26) at a similar hardness and you would expect it to get much sharper and hold that extremely sharp edge for a very long time. Again this is based on what I have read from a Verhoeven and some of the other discussions of the steel on the boards. Whether it can get to RC 64, I have no clue, but it would seem like if Verhoeven's heat treating process were followed it would get ideal edge stability and get 61 RC or better. I am not claiming to be an expert on this, not even close, just going by some things that I have read. Whether it will work as good as some of us pie in the sky people think, who knows? It definately would be expensive to produce with the heat treating process, but I would be very interested in it.

OK, lets agree to disagree on this and move on. I think this dead horse was beaten several times over in a few other threads.

As for the Manix, I still haven't sharpened it, and it continues to have a workable edge that can open packages and cut cardboard, but only slightly scrape shaves by the choil and only slices printer paper, it can't pushcut it. I am not carrying it now as that is way too dull for my tastes, but I let my wife use it to open some packages today. I am waiting to sharpen it until I get my D8XX stone to reprofile it, and then I will microbevel it at 15 degrees. I hope my fingers start to feel better soon, as it sucks not being able to sharpen your knives to the level of sharpness that I am accustomed to. I think once the stitches are out and the bandages are off I will be back to my old self at the hones.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

... what a truly thin and acute ground knife can do ....

Hopefully I will actually have a sensible steel for that grind shortly, SPGS is far better than CPM154 or similar, but ideally you use steels like W1, hardened so as to produce minimal retained austenite and martensite needle size while maximizing hardness. It is too bad you can't do all three of them at the same time, that is the problem with steels, for everything you increase there are a dozen things you decrease at the same time.

This is already in progress with three customs so designed, several more batches planned, including one in A2 which is of personal interest because what I have seen of its performance described (Elliott, Beach) makes no sense given its material properties (which indicate high edge stability). My personal favorite; 1095 vs F2 vs M2 vs 13C26 vs [some fad underhardened high carbide sillyness].

...using the term “horrible misuse” of 13C26 in regards to Kershaw, IMHO is a statement that is way off base.

You are using the steel exactly opposite as it is designed which makes its weakest property the critical performance element and its greatest property is irrelevant so yes, that would be horrible misuse.

We recently changed the Storms over from being flat ground to a hollow grind.

That isn't even relevant to what is being discussed.

Personally, I'm hoping to see a manufacturer step up to the plate with a very thin and high hardness design in that steel...

Yeah, use the steel as it was intended to be used, really not something that you should have to ask for.

Hi, Thomas ... wanted to say this is the kind of thing I like to hear from a manufacturer.

You are pretty easy to please. I want actual facts and logic not vague claims of research with no details and vague promises of improvement. What exactly were your design goals, how exactly were they achieved by the implementation. If you are improving then what is the direction and how is it implemented. Are you using research groups, how exactly are you dealing with personal bias in sampling.

As an example of what I want to see, this was a conversation I had awhile back with a knife maker :

"Why do you use that steel?"

"We spent a lot of time working with that class of blades for heavy use of various types and it was found that most blunting took place by fracture and/or deformation, there was little evidence of wear so we looking primarily for high toughness."

"How did you determine that."

"Magnification."

"Do you have any pictures."

"No, a lot of it was done with loupes and such."

"How extensive was the damage."

"It depends on the steel, it was visible in some case and others just visible under light magnification."

"So what are you aiming for?"

"Not visisble at all by eye or even under light magnification, no roughness to the thumbnail for example."

"So what about the wear resistance?"

"Yeah, that is low compared to some steels, but quite frankly it is still so high it isn't an issue."

"Who did the work?"

"I did and a bunch of friends."

"How did you make sure you were getting honest feedback?"

"I didn't, that's a real problem."

"So you are there now?"

"Huge improvements from where we started, the best I have seen personally, but still not satisfied and working with the heat treatment and exploring other steels essentially trying to find the best mix of hardness and toughness."

Note a clear description of the exact performance goals and how they were achieved. This was followed by an indepth discussion of the heat treating which wasn't "we are doing a good job" but specifics on what was used with again the same type of details. That is what I want to see from a manufacturer. Everyone says they are superior, everyone says they are improving, everyone says they did lots of research. I want an actual logical arguement supported by facts.


-Cliff

 

[Thomas W]

Wow, here's to more knife joy in 07. I've had my fill with this thread.

 

[db]

OK, lets agree to disagree on this and move on. I think this dead horse was beaten several times over in a few other threads.

I have used very thin and hard blades and do agree they are a real joy to cut with. I have a fully hardened 1095 blade and have made a few knives from all hard hacksaw blades. However, knife blades and razor blades aren't the same thing and aren't really used in the same way. You can resharpen razor blades too if that is what you want to use as a knife. As for 13C your right it's been done before in another thread. I still have alot of questions on the carbide tear/pull out myth but that also is probably for another thread as well.

 

[gunmike1]

I have used very thin and hard blades and do agree they are a real joy to cut with. I have a fully hardened 1095 blade and have made a few knives from all hard hacksaw blades. As for 13C your right it's been done before in another thread. I still have alot of questions on the carbide tear/pull out myth but that also is probably for another thread as well.

You're right, we can do it in other threads. I think both topics are very interesting, and we probably see them differently. Either way, you are fond of very thin edges and you approve of the D8XX, so you can't be all bad, right?

Thomas, I feel bad about your exit from this thread, and like I said earlier I understand your right and your need to defend your product. I think with the views already expressed by the many contributors to this thread in the other 13C threads it was hard to see this turning out much different, unfortunately. Sincerely, I truly wish you good luck with your business, and like I said, if your line of 13C knives are making your customers happy and making your company money, and you are happy with their performance, what do you care what some of us think? You can't please all of the people, all of the time.

 

[db]

You're right, we can do it in other threads. I think both topics are very interesting, and we probably see them differently.

Funny thing is I don't think we really do see them very differently. Sure we probably have diferent views on some of the details but that truthfully doesn't mean either are wrong just different.
even Cliff and I agree on alot of things, but only on the things he is right about.

Either way, you are fond of very thin edges and you approve of the D8XX, so you can't be all bad, right?

Depends on who you ask. at times I think everyone thinks I am.
And they are probably right.

 

[Dog of War]

Hi, Thomas ... wanted to say this is the kind of thing I like to hear from a manufacturer.

You are pretty easy to please....

Sometimes trying to be a bit of a diplomat makes one out to be a soft touch, or even a suck-up, doesn't? And of course how much I like hearing statements like those I referred to from Thomas does depend on actual delivery of improvements down the road. So IMO the jury's still out, but things are looking encouraging.

After that dreadful 13C26 thread on the general forum a few weeks ago I was hoping we could avoid a replay. This subject seems to put Thomas on the defensive, needlessly so IMO. But I do have to give credit where credit is due, Kershaw is at least working with this interesting steel in their product line, and in modestly priced pieces at that, rather than just bringing out more high end, high margin tactical stainless models. And any indication of improved blade geometries and better heat treat is a positive. Give credit, too, at least we know people from Kershaw are reading posts on these forums, even jumping into the fray at times. That's gotta be better than the ivory tower approach.

Hope you stick with us, Thomas. This forum in particular, yeah, you may read some critical things. But IMO there's a very high level of honesty here, and product strengths are mentioned and discussed just as readily as are drawbacks or problems.

 

[thombrogan]

Gunmike1,

Shoot me an email. If you want, I can reprofile your Manix to about 10 degrees per side with my EdgePro and new 80x ruby stone, polish the bevel up nice and shiny, and send it back to you for the final microbevel. That'll give your fingertips time to heal without unnecessary stress or accompanying tendonitis in your elbows.

db,

All of the steels I've had which couldn't hold a very fine angle all had large carbides. Was it carbide tear-out or carbide-influenced? I dunno; left my metallographic microscope back at my unicorn ranch with my V-notch Charpy tester. ZDP-189 and SGPS haven't failed me as noticeably, so maybe (okay, likely) it was some other factor.

 

[gunmike1]

Gunmike1,

Shoot me an email. If you want, I can reprofile your Manix to about 10 degrees per side with my EdgePro and new 80x ruby stone, polish the bevel up nice and shiny, and send it back to you for the final microbevel. That'll give your fingertips time to heal without unnecessary stress or accompanying tendonitis in your elbows.

E-mail and package (and return shipping) soon to be on it's way. I really appreciate this, with my general clumsiness, and my 2 year old daughter's roughhousing, my fingertips aren't the happiest. They only hurt when you touch them, such as smashing them into things unintentionally (clumsiness) and when a 30 lb. ball of energy lauches itself from great heights to land on your fingertips (That would be the 2 year old with more energy than an atomic bomb. Almost as destructive, too.) Also, my wife has wrist surgery coming up in 2 weeks, so by the time my fingers get to feeling better I will be the maid/babysitter/in home nurse/punching bag for a week. You are really saving my butt more than you know. I already get lectured for sharpening too much, I don't think "just a minute honey, I'm almost done stropping this one" will go over well when my wife needs some ice or anything else during recovery.

By the way, I will try to post the pics of both my fingers and the chipping of the Manix (along with the culprit twist tie) ASAP, as I finally downloaded the pics from my camera. It's funny how chopping your fingers tips in half slows you down a little on your plans. Thanks again, I'll shoot you an e mail in a couple minutes.

 

[thombrogan]

Thanks for the emails. It's quick-ish with a 250x diamond, so it'll be fun with an 80x AO stone that reprofiled ZDP-189 like a possessed ninja (all quiet and efficient-like).

 

[STR]

Thomas I'd let Cliff's comments about the horrible use of the steel just roll off you. He won't change his stance. Forget the fact that at that thickness the steel is performing at or above the same level of performance as the 440A steels it is replacing while saving you headaches as well as money. He can't understand why you wouldn't use 12C27 instead even though you have worked closely with Sandvik to determine the best avenue to approach it and what steel would be best as well as, experimenting and trying new things with edge profiles and grinds. To him it will always be a razor blade steel no matter what you do with it.

Apparently you also need to forget the fact that everyone that stamps the blades, grinds and finishes them for you, heat treats, sharpens and assembles them for you, is quite happy with it and the consistancy and cleaness it offers also compared to what you were using before and what it is replacing for you.

I wonder how many knives get complained about because they are dull to manufacturers? Do you think an end line user can tell one dull knife steel from another dull knife steel? Some think the blades are too thick. I still contend that at that thickness Joe Public won't be able to tell the difference between it and 440A, AUS6, AUS8 or even other more expensive steels. Thats fine if you think it needs to be thinner. If so ,reprofile it once you get it. It wouldn't be the first time someone personalized a blade they carry.

Bottom line as far as I see is this. When you dig out first base with your knife blade to make the base sit a bit better in the ground before a game does it really mean one steel is going to hold up better than another at this? What about cleaning your spark plugs with your folder blade? Do you think 13C26 will be less efficient at this than 420J or S30V? I think its safe to say the spark plugs win in that case.

My point is. I don't see any real reason to thin the blades down much more than they are currently for the Joe Public user/abuser. I've used the Storm knives side by side with the Byrd Cara Cara and other similarly priced knives and they compare quite favorably with them holding their own if you ask me. You hand or sell at this price point a thinner blade to Joe Public you'll most likely be getting it back with a broken or fractured blade about the time he rounds third base to dig it out like the other two bases before that. Thin might be in, but not for Joe Public IMO. Joe Public is buying these knives, not the steel junkies. Fortunately Kershaw sells enough knives to the masses to have figured this out.

STR