N.H. toughens up its negligent hiker laws

Quit my job? yea ok, thats going to help. One less searcher.
give some goddamn respect to the people that do this because they want to. No one does this for the "rush" or for the glory. What crap. Insulting really. done here.

Insulting? Whats wrong with the "rush" or the "glory"? What's wrong or insulting about a "risk taker" who has a chance to do something they are really good at doing, love doing, and at the same time can help people in need.

When a victim takes that first look up at a rescue team member doesn't the relief and admiration in that look provide a "rush" for the team member?

What is "crap" is doing work for the wrong reasons such as enjoying a position of superiority over others and being provided the opportunity to demean others.
 
Was that a "yes", or a "no" Don?


Perhaps you should read my posts, you can read, can't you? Or do you just see what you want to see? I already addressed this, I'm not your wife, kid or your dog. If you can't understand what I'm saying, instead of hounding me with something I have already answered, perhaps you should check into a Sylvan Learning Center or something. 8-)

I'm not trying to be combative, but like many debates that get hot online, there is oftentimes the demand to go back and say everything you already said over again because someone didn't read what you had to say or simply because they want to piss someone off. Tim, have a Happy New Year. I'm not your enemy but when reminded you should read what I wrote earlier and you come back with another demand, you can go shit in your hat! :D
 
Perhaps you should read my posts, you can read, can't you? Or do you just see what you want to see? I already addressed this, I'm not your wife, kid or your dog. If you can't understand what I'm saying, instead of hounding me with something I have already answered, perhaps you should check into a Sylvan Learning Center or something. 8-)

I'm not trying to be combative, but like many debates that get hot online, there is oftentimes the demand to go back and say everything you already said over again because someone didn't read what you had to say or simply because they want to piss someone off. Tim, have a Happy New Year. I'm not your enemy but when reminded you should read what I wrote earlier and you come back with another demand, you can go shit in your hat! :D

Yes Don, I've read every word you've written in this thread. Starting in post 61 where you jumped a bit off track (on a "Gubment rant"), but did respond to another posters comment about "losing homes".

It was at that point that I saw that your issues were not so much with the minor law change, but instead with your perceptions of government as a whole (as evidenced in your post 65 "Charging people and making them lose their homes is just a slap in the face. Government wastes so much damned money because it's our money, condemning welfare or things like this is absurd.").

I'm not sure where you live, nor do I really care, but it's quite evident that you are not familiar with NH Law, or these mountains. I don't intend that to be insulting, just an obvious point that can easily be taken from your posts.

But that's OK... we don't expect everyone to know this country as well as do those of us who live here... fortunatly... SAR and F&G will rescue anyone, and only the ignorant to the point of negligent will pay. That's the law. You don't have to like it... you just have to pay.
 
Some outdoors activitys in Canada require you to have Survival Items with you, thats what parks should post, is a list of items and a few things you need to do before taking a hiking trip. If you don't have the items and did not do as the law requires then you have to pay for the Search and Rescue.

RickJ

Rick,

Actually, I think you are onto the correct line of thought. I think instead of paying for the SAR they should have some sort of fine in place or else you are going to have a bureaucratic retard trying to take someone's house. Hell, we see regular people in here saying it and they don't have any power!

Perhaps if they would stop telling us on these bulletin boards what we are prohibited from doing and carrying, they should tell others what they should be preparing for, etc.
 
Tim,

You know what I said, you can try to crawdad now and save face, it doesn't matter to me. I'm not angry, I'm laughing. 8-)
 
Thats why I say charge everyone by default, have the first responders determine whether the service should be comped and let the burden of proving the you were adequately prepared fall on the rescued.

The problem is people feel entitled to these services and rely on them as a first response to any problem they encounter instead of taking any personal precautions.


With all do respect, don't we pay enough fees to the fat cats that make bad decisions. If you start collecting fees like that people get greedy and soon you will see SAR members with big fat pension and 6 figure salary. How are you going to define if one person is competent or not? If they don't carry a swiss army knife with 100000000 gadgets that must mean they are not competent. If you take bushman like mears or les, give them a blanket and a knife they would be more competent than most with high tech gear.
 
I know the solution. If you are in trouble call for help but tell them if they want to get paid, don't come. Just stay at home and watch the Simpsons and polish your boots. If people are doing this to help their fellow man they will come. If it is an imposition then they need to go work somewhere else or quit "volunteering".
 
Why, I think both of you gents are anti-gubmint extremists! That's what they will call you, you know... :D
 
Tim,

You know what I said, you can try to crawdad now and save face, it doesn't matter to me. I'm not angry, I'm laughing. 8-)

Yes, WE know what you've said Don... you imply that I might not be able to read... suggest that I'm narrow-minded and only "see what I want to see"... belittle my ability to know who you are (not wife, kid, dog)... say that I'm hounding you... and that I need reading comprehension assistance (Sylvan)... all under the guise of your announcement that you are not being combative.:rolleyes:

Then you continue on to mention "things" getting "hot", and that I might have tried to "piss" you off... and you finish me off by telling me that I can go "shit in my hat".

All this directed at me, and I don't believe I've uttered a harsh word to you.

What a shame... very poor form on your part Don...
 
It's been mentioned that teaching and training need to be of greater emphasis concerning this law change. For those interested, here are a number of sites which exist, and have existed for some time to provide exactly this sort of information.

Safe Hiking in New Hampshire

In 2003, the N.H. Fish and Game Department and the White Mountain National Forest partnered up to create a mountain safety education program called "hikeSafe." A large component of the program is the Hiker Responsibility Code, which is posted on hikeSafe signs at all major trailheads in New Hampshire. The code applies to all hikers, from beginners on a short hike to experienced outdoor enthusiasts embarking on an expedition. Please practice the elements of the code and help the hikeSafe program spread by sharing the code with fellow trekkers. This will help increase responsibility and decrease the need for Search and Rescue efforts.

hikeSafe Hiker Responsibility Code
You are responsible for yourself, so be prepared:

  • With knowledge and gear. Become self reliant by learning about the terrain, conditions, local weather and your equipment before you start.
  • To leave your plans. Tell someone where you are going, the trails you are hiking, when you’ll return and your emergency plans.
  • To stay together. When you start as a group, hike as a group, end as a group. Pace your hike to the slowest person.
  • To turn back. Weather changes quickly in the mountains. Fatigue and unexpected conditions can also affect your hike. Know your limitations and when to postpone your hike. The mountains will be there another day.
  • For emergencies. Even if you are headed out for just an hour, an injury, severe weather or a wrong turn could become life threatening. Don’t assume you will be rescued; know how to rescue yourself.
  • To share the hiker code with others.
    http://www.wildlife.state.nh.us/Outdoor_Recreation/hiking_safety.htm

http://www.hikesafe.com/
http://www.visitnh.gov/what-to-do/outdoor-adventure/hiking-and-climbing.aspx
 
Tim,

When I said earlier that I was primarily responding to an absurd statement made by another member, you decided to draw me into something else. I told you what I said! Now you try to take the moral high ground because you have not uttered a "harsh word." Had you read and understood what I wrote, your question would have been answered, there was no need to hound me about it, and, yes you were.

I also stated earlier that if some knucklehead didn't bring a flashlight and couldn't make it out after dark and had to be rescued, there should probably be some sort of fine regime put in place for that sort of thing. That is not MY example, but something another member posted about. I can only come to the conclusion that you wish for some type of Draconian response from government because you are apparently so offended by people who are critical and basically don't trust government to do the right thing.

Government rarely does anything remotely resembling "the right thing" and when there is money involved, you better believe they are going to milk it like a cow.

That's why I also said earlier, be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.

I don't know if you know anything about Geochaching or not. I don't Geocache yet but it seems like a dandy way to learn how to use a GPS unit very effectively.

In Arkansas, the Bureacrats made a decision that any Geocache in a National Forest would be permitted only if they had an accurate description of what it was, the coordinates of where it was and you have to pay a $57.00 fee per Geocache and it doesn't matter if that is a .50 Cal. Ammo Can or a micro-cache the size of a 35mm film cannister or even a small pill fob container. This is the government at work and this is the reason people don't trust government, it is arbitrary and Draconian, at best. Once there is money to be made, they will milk it for all it is worth, guaranteed.
 
Tim,

When I said earlier that I was primarily responding to an absurd statement made by another member, you decided to draw me into something else. I told you what I said! Now you try to take the moral high ground because you have not uttered a "harsh word." Had you read and understood what I wrote, your question would have been answered, there was no need to hound me about it, and, yes you were.

I also stated earlier that if some knucklehead didn't bring a flashlight and couldn't make it out after dark and had to be rescued, there should probably be some sort of fine regime put in place for that sort of thing. That is not MY example, but something another member posted about. I can only come to the conclusion that you wish for some type of Draconian response from government because you are apparently so offended by people who are critical and basically don't trust government to do the right thing.

Government rarely does anything remotely resembling "the right thing" and when there is money involved, you better believe they are going to milk it like a cow.

That's why I also said earlier, be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.

I don't know if you know anything about Geochaching or not. I don't Geocache yet but it seems like a dandy way to learn how to use a GPS unit very effectively.

In Arkansas, the Bureacrats made a decision that any Geocache in a National Forest would be permitted only if they had an accurate description of what it was, the coordinates of where it was and you have to pay a $57.00 fee per Geocache and it doesn't matter if that is a .50 Cal. Ammo Can or a micro-cache the size of a 35mm film cannister or even a small pill fob container. This is the government at work and this is the reason people don't trust government, it is arbitrary and Draconian, at best. Once there is money to be made, they will milk it for all it is worth, guaranteed.

I read what you wrote. I understood what you wrote. I have no need to take the moral high ground. You are satisfied that you've answered my question... I can live with that.

Let's move on.
 
Gentlebeings (to borrow a phrase from Cougar Allen),

I have not read this thread yet, but it seems that there are too many posts that talk about each other rather than the subject at hand. Let's get this on track. I am going to read it now from start to finish, and i sure hope it will be worth the time.
 
Question?

If a SAR person is attempting a rescue and needs to be rescued themself, do they get fined or lose their house?

If not, why not?

They were obviously not prepared and not properly trained, just like the original victim.
 
Given that ignorance is such a huge factor in people getting in trouble, I would very much like to see a program in our public schools that teaches preparedness subjects, such as basic outdoor survival, vehicle safety, recreational safety, first aid, cpr, disaster preparedness/response, etc. I would propose that this be a mandatory credit in order to graduate high school for all American students. I think education is more effective than punishment. As an example, I would point to the success of hunter safety programs.
 
Question?

If a SAR person is attempting a rescue and needs to be rescued himself, do they get fined or lose their house?

If not, why not?

They were obviously not prepared and not properly trained, just like the original victim.

How is a fully equipped SAR member with ropes, radio, helmet, cold weather gear, crampons, lights, etc., and SAR training certifications, "obviously not prepared and not properly trained just like the original victim"?
The victim is dressed in shorts, a tank-top, and tennis shoes and is only carrying an IPOD and six-pack of beer in his back pack.

I don't understand how you can see them as nearly the same?:confused:

Previous to the law change which generated this thread, the law said that a person had to be proved "reckless" before they could be charged for rescue expenses. With "reckless" as the standard, people HAVE been made to pay for their rescue in the past a number of times... Charging people for their rescue if they were "reckless" has been around for a long time and is nothing new.

To answer your question, I suspect that if one of the SAR or F&G people were proved "reckless" or now, "negligent" during a rescue and had to be rescued himself, they also could be charged fees. However, I doubt that this has ever happened... Rescues are well orchestrated and frankly, no SAR member is going to let another SAR member hit the trail without being properly equipped.

Again, no one has ever been denied rescue (as far as I know). Under the old law (reckless), some people HAVE had to pay for the expenses AFTER they were rescued because they met the standard of "reckless". Rescue incidents are investigated afterward and THEN a determination is made as to whether or not the victim was "reckless" or now, "negligent".

If you didn't follow the posted hiking "laws" and got into trouble, you might have to pay... just as if you didn't follow a posted speed limit while driving.
 
Given that ignorance is such a huge factor in people getting in trouble, I would very much like to see a program in our public schools that teaches preparedness subjects, such as basic outdoor survival, vehicle safety, recreational safety, first aid, cpr, disaster preparedness/response, etc. I would propose that this be a mandatory credit in order to graduate high school for all American students. I think education is more effective than punishment. As an example, I would point to the success of hunter safety programs.

Outstanding!! I agree!
 
With all do respect, don't we pay enough fees to the fat cats that make bad decisions. If you start collecting fees like that people get greedy and soon you will see SAR members with big fat pension and 6 figure salary. How are you going to define if one person is competent or not? If they don't carry a swiss army knife with 100000000 gadgets that must mean they are not competent. If you take bushman like mears or les, give them a blanket and a knife they would be more competent than most with high tech gear.

Perhaps I'm under the wrong impression, or things are run very differently from region to region, but SAR has always seemed to be more of a community effort of volunteers than "greedy government fat cats". It's not impossible, but I would be surprised if the nature of the workers changed so drastically from being benevolent to exploitative.

Of course proving someone was negligent isn't always going to be clear cut, especially with lawyers who will argue "within a reasonable doubt" that water isnt wet. Having people by default pay for services rendered and letting the first responders exercise their discretion in deciding whether the individual was negligent, I think would work best. They're in a better position to honestly asses the situation than any executive or lawyer.
I can imagine that with the burden of having to prove negligence on the SAR's side it could create a expensive dragged out appeal process that could possibly cost more than it ever recovers (and then what? Lawsuits against the SAR program to recover legal expenses?).
In the gray cases I see no problem with giving people the benefit of the doubt, but just because such there are less clear cut cases doesnt mean the black & white cases cant be dealt with accordingly.

I might not have been entirely clear, and with regards to Don's statements about people loosing their homes I entirely agree. Why save someones life just do ruin in the next day? SAR can be quick and painless or it can drag out and end up costing a bloody fortune, that's sometimes the luck of the draw. Perhaps a fixed charge would work best, then no one could complain that the rescue was inefficient and too expensive.
I feel the ultimate goal should be to create incentive to avoid these situations and recovering expenses is just a byproduct of the fact that some people are only motivated by money.

This talk of license and permits to go into the woods is just ludicrous. No one is saying you have to follow certain regulations to use the outdoors, if anything proper precautions are just an individuals 2 fold insurance policy, first it reduces the chance of needing rescue and secondly it indemnifies you against being liable for your rescue. If someone insists on going out without such a safety net thats their choice, but if that choice becomes someone else's problem should there be no consequence?

But honestly, I'm not familiar enough with the program and especially NH's unique problems to do anything more than speculate. All I really know is there's a lack of personal responsibility in this world and all the consequence free bail outs just enable that problem.
 
Given that ignorance is such a huge factor in people getting in trouble, I would very much like to see a program in our public schools that teaches preparedness subjects, such as basic outdoor survival, vehicle safety, recreational safety, first aid, cpr, disaster preparedness/response, etc. I would propose that this be a mandatory credit in order to graduate high school for all American students. I think education is more effective than punishment. As an example, I would point to the success of hunter safety programs.

I think that would be a fantastic idea. I've always been amazed that with all the stuff they teach you in school they fail to teach things that used to be common knowledge. I suppose memorizing the writings of some dead poet is more important than learning something that might make a real difference in your life. (not that I've got anything against poetry:D, I just dont think it's a priority)
 
Tim,

I am sorry you took my posting literally, I meant it tongue-in-cheek to show how slippery the slope can be. Your answer confirmed my position on this.

When you start letting others judge what is, or is not reckless, you are asking for trouble. I am much more prepared in the woods wearing shorts and carrying a six pack than many would be carrying half of the Campmor catalog on their back. A compass in the hands of an idiot is of little use.

To all,

Think about this, WE (contributors of this forum) are probably one of the most formidable authorities on outdoor survival in the country.

If we pose the question to our members here "What items should be required as necessary to avoid being fined in the event of needing SAR", we will likely get several different points of view. When you start answering with terms like "appropriate clothing" and "adequate water/food" you see how subjective and unfair a law like this starts to become.

If WE could not come up with a definitive answer, how fair would it be for Government regulators who know little or nothing about wilderness survival to determine what items would be required and who acted in a reckless manner and who is a victim of cicumstance?

If you leave it up to the SAR guys, you will get similar results. While I commend them for going into harms way, they are trained for rescue and don't know wilderness skills in every case and even if they do, they will have differing points of view. Police and Government officials have even less knowledge most of the time.

I believe this is one more nail in the coffin and one more freedom lost. We really need to stop regulating and creating laws for the government to protect us. Take a good hard look at some of the other countries that have gone this way and I think you will see that they have less and less individual freedoms and rights.

Let good luck favor the prepared and bad luck punish the unprepared.
 
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