N.H. toughens up its negligent hiker laws

[Thomas Linton]

This is something that is very difficult to enforce. It would be like a seat belt law for the woods. Instead of a seat belt you have gear. Who patrols around to enforce it? Would it be enforced by a civilian corps of tattle tales? Or would the the fine only be imposed if you are found to be without gear upon rescue? I am all for doing something to stop the frivolous use of emergency/rescue personnel, but is there really any way to do it?

The statute does not mention gear per se. One could have all the "right" gear and still do something so unwise that a consensus that the behavior was negligent would be fairly certain -- say try to cross a river in flood. Or you could have the gear and not have a clue of how to use it - can't read map, use compass, operate GPS gear, set up tent, start stove, etc.

In the classic, "Hypothermia, Killer of the Unprepared," the intro story of the two than ended up deaders indicates they had all manner of gear -- just didn't use it.

 

[Cpl Punishment]

.. .. If you don't have the items and did not do as the law requires then you have to pay for the Search and Rescue.

RickJ

I think the intent is clear: it's a way to determine if the person calling the SAR is partially/wholly responsible for the situation.

Not sure I agree because it could be applied in a blanket manner such that if someone has a legit reason for a SAR would still be charged if they didn't have something on the list. For instance it shouldn't matter if someone didn't have a jacket if they broke their leg, but might get charged anyway.

 

[Bushman5]

This is something that is very difficult to enforce. It would be like a seat belt law for the woods. Instead of a seat belt you have gear. Who patrols around to enforce it? Would it be enforced by a civilian corps of tattle tales? Or would the the fine only be imposed if you are found to be without gear upon rescue? I am all for doing something to stop the frivolous use of emergency/rescue personnel, but is there really any way to do it?

Media Blitz! podcasts! use the shiny shiny iThis and iThat and TV to send home the message. PSA's on all the local radios/TV's.

Use the shiny shiny distration devices to our advantage to spread the meassge.

We already have Rangers, Parks, and RCMP on the trails, hell i have seen some of them hand out FREE GEAR (heat sheets, whistles, maps etc). set up Trail Ambassadors (retired Scout leaders etc), people love the nature demo booths that are already present (at least here in BC), perhaps one set up showing the basic gear to carry, how to use it etc. I'd volunteer in a heartbeat.(i already do, though more one on one). set up posters in the local MEC/REI/outdoors stores - 10 things every hiker should cary, etc. In store demos on how to use the gear, how to improvise etc etc etc.

If people will attend a seminar on going green in the home, they will attend a seminar on outdoor basics....

 

[Wild Weasel]

There are a couple of points being repeatedly put forth in this thread that I just can't ignore. I have to say something. What the hell, this being the last hours of 2008, seems a fitting time for me to post. (I seldom do anymore.)

1. All of you folks out there weeping for the poor, overworked, endangered SAR personnel are kidding yourselves. There are two basic types of SAR. Paid professional and Unpaid Professional. (Some call those "Volunteers.) Regardless of their level of training/experience, they all have one thing in common. They do it because they want to. Some enjoy the "glamor" aspect. Some are just adrenelin junkies looking to get their high as often as possible. Very few if any of them are the altruistic saints y'all would like to paint them as. I've heard anyone in SAR stumbling around in the cold dark woods complain but I've never seen one quit so he could go find a "safer" job with regular hours. Make of that what you will.

2. In this fine modern age of a multi-trillion dollar "Bailout" for every rich banker and corporate weasel in America, I really can't begrudge the relatively insignificant amount of taxpayer money "wasted" on saving someone's life. Even if that someone is an idiot.

I think those of you who are complaining about the cost of theoretically avoidable SAR operations are basically complaining about somebody stealing a coke from your cooler while failing to notice the theft of your truck, bass boat, and RV.

Finally, for those of you who sound like you may be, or have in the past been involved in SAR, yes, I believe in Personal Responsibility. But I also believe, anyone who would save a life and then complain about the cost, or how the rescued had a "sucky attitude" should be permanently barred from being a member of any SAR organisation.

Part of the price paid for being a SAR Professional, is; You save the stupid and ungrateful right along with everybody else. You don't get to choose who is "worthy" and who is not. That part is left up to God. (Or chance/luck, "Mother Nature" or "The Mountain" if you prefer.) Either way, a Professional doesn't complain about the job. Saving people's lives is the job. If you don't like the job, its time to quit.

Perhaps something in the Food Service Industry?



May the best of the last year be the worst of the next. Good luck, God bless, and Happy New Year one and all.

 

[STAGE 2]

I don't know about where you all live, but around me, frivolous use of such services gets you charged.

Except that when rescue is required, its not frivolous.

If you call the police (911) for, say, an intruder. If they show up and there's no sign of an intruder, or it turns out to be the neighbor's kitty, you get two of those for free per year, on the third time onward, you get charged for a frivolous call.

If you had a reasonable belief that an intruder was trying to break in, thats not frivolous.

If you call the fire department and it's determined it's your fault the fire started (like you set your woods on fire because you were burning brush in your backyard without using a burn barrel, you get charged.

Only if you were doing something illegal.

Thats the key here. If you do something illegal or intentionally cause responders to come out for no reason thats one thing. However I don't recall any people needing rescue starting out with the intention that they were going to get themselves in a jam.

 

[Bushman5]

There are a couple of points being repeatedly put forth in this thread that I just can't ignore. I have to say something. What the hell, this being the last hours of 2008, seems a fitting time for me to post. (I seldom do anymore.)

1. All of you folks out there weeping for the poor, overworked, endangered SAR personnel are kidding yourselves. There are two basic types of SAR. Paid professional and Unpaid Professional. (Some call those "Volunteers.) Regardless of their level of training/experience, they all have one thing in common. They do it because they want to. Some enjoy the "glamor" aspect. Some are just adrenelin junkies looking to get their high as often as possible. Very few if any of them are the altruistic saints y'all would like to paint them as. I've heard anyone in SAR stumbling around in the cold dark woods complain but I've never seen one quit so he could go find a "safer" job with regular hours. Make of that what you will.

2. In this fine modern age of a multi-trillion dollar "Bailout" for every rich banker and corporate weasel in America, I really can't begrudge the relatively insignificant amount of taxpayer money "wasted" on saving someone's life. Even if that someone is an idiot.

I think those of you who are complaining about the cost of theoretically avoidable SAR operations are basically complaining about somebody stealing a coke from your cooler while failing to notice the theft of your truck, bass boat, and RV.

Finally, for those of you who sound like you may be, or have in the past been involved in SAR, yes, I believe in Personal Responsibility. But I also believe, anyone who would save a life and then complain about the cost, or how the rescued had a "sucky attitude" should be permanently barred from being a member of any SAR organisation.

Part of the price paid for being a SAR Professional, is; You save the stupid and ungrateful right along with everybody else. You don't get to choose who is "worthy" and who is not. That part is left up to God. (Or chance/luck, "Mother Nature" or "The Mountain" if you prefer.) Either way, a Professional doesn't complain about the job. Saving people's lives is the job. If you don't like the job, its time to quit.

Perhaps something in the Food Service Industry?



May the best of the last year be the worst of the next. Good luck, God bless, and Happy New Year one and all.

1st of all, HAPPY NEW YEARS! 2nd: this is not a personal attack.

I find yer statement to be complete and utter bullcrap. You are advocating that over 500+ SAR here quit and work in the food industry? They/We take the searches VERY SERIOUSLY and dont do it for the "glamour" or the "high". I do not know ANYONE that does it because they are an adrenaline junkie or because they have some sort of holier than thou complex......They/We do it because we want to HELP people in distress, and because we were raised to help people out , no matter the situ. None of us have a pick and choose attitude, sure we will be very vocal and bit** about some of the people that are rescued, but in NO way does anyone pick and choose..... .....That being said, we have every right to be pissed at peoples actions or lack of foresight, and we have every right to be vocal aboutit, and we have every right to try and PREVENT it. Previous methods at prevention (dont do that, wrist slap) have FAILED. So something harsher is in order. And if fines are in order, so be it.

 

[KiljoyKutlery]

There are a couple of points being repeatedly put forth in this thread that I just can't ignore. I have to say something. What the hell, this being the last hours of 2008, seems a fitting time for me to post. (I seldom do anymore.)

1. All of you folks out there weeping for the poor, overworked, endangered SAR personnel are kidding yourselves. There are two basic types of SAR. Paid professional and Unpaid Professional. (Some call those "Volunteers.) Regardless of their level of training/experience, they all have one thing in common. They do it because they want to. Some enjoy the "glamor" aspect. Some are just adrenelin junkies looking to get their high as often as possible. Very few if any of them are the altruistic saints y'all would like to paint them as. I've heard anyone in SAR stumbling around in the cold dark woods complain but I've never seen one quit so he could go find a "safer" job with regular hours. Make of that what you will.

2. In this fine modern age of a multi-trillion dollar "Bailout" for every rich banker and corporate weasel in America, I really can't begrudge the relatively insignificant amount of taxpayer money "wasted" on saving someone's life. Even if that someone is an idiot.

I think those of you who are complaining about the cost of theoretically avoidable SAR operations are basically complaining about somebody stealing a coke from your cooler while failing to notice the theft of your truck, bass boat, and RV.

Finally, for those of you who sound like you may be, or have in the past been involved in SAR, yes, I believe in Personal Responsibility. But I also believe, anyone who would save a life and then complain about the cost, or how the rescued had a "sucky attitude" should be permanently barred from being a member of any SAR organisation.

Part of the price paid for being a SAR Professional, is; You save the stupid and ungrateful right along with everybody else. You don't get to choose who is "worthy" and who is not. That part is left up to God. (Or chance/luck, "Mother Nature" or "The Mountain" if you prefer.) Either way, a Professional doesn't complain about the job. Saving people's lives is the job. If you don't like the job, its time to quit.

Perhaps something in the Food Service Industry?



May the best of the last year be the worst of the next. Good luck, God bless, and Happy New Year one and all.

I find your statements to be complete and utter sanity...good show...and not bad for your number of posts. Gene

 

[KiljoyKutlery]

1st of all, HAPPY NEW YEARS! 2nd: this is not a personal attack.

I find yer statement to be complete and utter bullcrap. You are advocating that over 500+ SAR here quit and work in the food industry? They/We take the searches VERY SERIOUSLY and dont do it for the "glamour" or the "high". I do not know ANYONE that does it because they are an adrenaline junkie or because they have some sort of holier than thou complex......They/We do it because we want to HELP people in distress, and because we were raised to help people out , no matter the situ. None of us have a pick and choose attitude, sure we will be very vocal and bit** about some of the people that are rescued, but in NO way does anyone pick and choose..... .....That being said, we have every right to be pissed at peoples actions or lack of foresight, and we have every right to be vocal aboutit, and we have every right to try and PREVENT it. Previous methods at prevention (dont do that, wrist slap) have FAILED. So something harsher is in order. And if fines are in order, so be it.

Not a personal attack, but you state teh poster is full of bull shit...nice.
I think that he stated his personal opinion without the need to call you out., so I will. what do you do?

 

[Bushman5]

fair enough your right, my bad.

allow me to rephrase: I find the statement posted to be completely untrue.

 

[Ramm9]

As did one other poster in this thread, I looked up the law best I could in New Hampshire. Here is a link to what I found - http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/xviii/206/206-26-bb.htm .

What I see is "executive director shall bill the responsible person" meaning a bureaucrat may choose to decide "hey sounds like that guy was stupid and negligent so lets bill him a few grand and see how it goes. Wow! A arbitrary decision maker, better hope it's a level headed one, and that his/her successors are also.

Another interesting quote: http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/12/29/america/29rescue.php

"But the law also applies to nursing homes and hospitals, holding supervisors responsible if a patient wanders off and has to be rescued."

and

"Because the man separated from his group, ignored weather forecasts and did not have adequate equipment, he was billed $16,000 for his rescue"...

So for those of you advocating hit hard and take their house...that result is a strong possibility.

What happens when your 20 year old daughter tags along with her boyfriend and say another couple one afternoon and gets lost, breaks a bone, and thankfully finally gets rescued. A week later she comes to you for help with the $37,567.00 bill she needs paid by February 5, 2009. Please, don't present a "my daughter knows better argument" the executive director thinks it an appropriate charge this week.

But I also believe, anyone who would save a life and then complain about the cost, or how the rescued had a "sucky attitude" should be permanently barred from being a member of any SAR organisation.

Part of the price paid for being a SAR Professional, is; You save the stupid and ungrateful right along with everybody else. You don't get to choose who is "worthy" and who is not.

THANK YOU Wild Weasel, I am in agreement.

I have the greatest respect for people who train and thrive on helping others and thank them. There are some, however, that should be evaluated and probably do not belong in either a paid or voluntary position.

 

[mkhop]

Rescues provide the SAR people with experience something you can not buy or completely train for., Maybe they should be paying the unprepared for the experience. There is no scenario where a desk bound bureaucrat couldn't find fault and reason to pass on cost for something already being payed by taxes.
Have licenses and required training or special permits ,laws are suppose to protect us not punish for being human.

 

[Idaho Jarhead]

Don't know if this has been mentioned or not, but I have seen people get charged for rescues, after a court trial that proved the rescue was necessitated by negligence. I agree with cases like that, as long as the negligence is proven.

 

[timcsaw]

Part of the price paid for being a SAR Professional, is; You save the stupid and ungrateful right along with everybody else. You don't get to choose who is "worthy" and who is not.

True. No one that I am aware of (SAR or F&G) has ever refused to go out on a rescue. As far as I know, no victim has ever been refused help by SAR or F&G. They answer the call to ANYONE who needs them. EVERYONE is worthy of rescue

Then, after the victim is safe and warm, the factors which contributed to their need to have been rescued are analyzed. If their own negligence is found to be the PRIMARY cause, they are billed.

If for example, they were told by F&G that weather was coming and it was to late in the day to try to summit, and they ignored this warning and are rescued... they probably will pay (and rightly so IMO).

I used to see similar cases of negligence when I lived in Arizona. Many main roads cross arroyos, and dry river beds. Posted at each side of the arroyo next to the road is a sign that says something along the line of "Do not drive if ANY water is present. River bed floods quickly!"... but every monsoon season, people are rescued from their car roofs because they did NOT heed the warning (or worse, people drown... including rescuers).

People make their own choices and "decisions". People need to recognize and accept that the choices and decisions that they themselves make, have consequences that THEY themselves are responsible for.

============================

Don't follow the posted speed limit sign? Get a ticket and pay the fine.

Don't follow the posted "Required items for Hike" sign? Get a ticket and pay the fine.

=============================

By the way, current weather conditions on Mt. Washington (home of the "Worlds worst weather");

Temp. -23*F (-31*C)
Wind 96.1 MPH (122.9 MPH gusts)
Wind Chill -73*F

What say we all go have some fun and do a rescue eh?

 

[DOC-CANADA]

There are a couple of points being repeatedly put forth in this thread that I just can't ignore. I have to say something. What the hell, this being the last hours of 2008, seems a fitting time for me to post. (I seldom do anymore.)

1. All of you folks out there weeping for the poor, overworked, endangered SAR personnel are kidding yourselves. There are two basic types of SAR. Paid professional and Unpaid Professional. (Some call those "Volunteers.) Regardless of their level of training/experience, they all have one thing in common. They do it because they want to. Some enjoy the "glamor" aspect. Some are just adrenelin junkies looking to get their high as often as possible. Very few if any of them are the altruistic saints y'all would like to paint them as. I've heard anyone in SAR stumbling around in the cold dark woods complain but I've never seen one quit so he could go find a "safer" job with regular hours. Make of that what you will.

2. In this fine modern age of a multi-trillion dollar "Bailout" for every rich banker and corporate weasel in America, I really can't begrudge the relatively insignificant amount of taxpayer money "wasted" on saving someone's life. Even if that someone is an idiot.

I think those of you who are complaining about the cost of theoretically avoidable SAR operations are basically complaining about somebody stealing a coke from your cooler while failing to notice the theft of your truck, bass boat, and RV.

Finally, for those of you who sound like you may be, or have in the past been involved in SAR, yes, I believe in Personal Responsibility. But I also believe, anyone who would save a life and then complain about the cost, or how the rescued had a "sucky attitude" should be permanently barred from being a member of any SAR organisation.

Part of the price paid for being a SAR Professional, is; You save the stupid and ungrateful right along with everybody else. You don't get to choose who is "worthy" and who is not. That part is left up to God. (Or chance/luck, "Mother Nature" or "The Mountain" if you prefer.) Either way, a Professional doesn't complain about the job. Saving people's lives is the job. If you don't like the job, its time to quit.

Perhaps something in the Food Service Industry?



May the best of the last year be the worst of the next. Good luck, God bless, and Happy New Year one and all.

Maybe you should more often. :thumbup:

Doc

 

[Bushman5]

I dont know a single SAR who decides who is "worthy" and who is'nt to rescue. What a bunch of utter bullflop and an insult to the many professionals and volunteers who sacrifrice thier time to help others. After thousands of searches and rescues where one sees the SAME mistakes and lack of gear, preparation and training, or the many that are ungrateful and verbally abusive, it is perfectly NORMAL to vent. I have every right to bitch about the nimrods. Its good to get it out of the system. Quit my job? yea ok, thats going to help. One less searcher.

give some goddamn respect to the people that do this because they want to. No one does this for the "rush" or for the glory. What crap. Insulting really.

done here.

 

[Don Rearic]

First of all, I was not responding to the law per se but do a member's comments about people losing their homes to pay for bloated costs, which, I assure you, will rise in New Hampshire so they can tag anyone they want with an astronomical bill.

Let's do this, let's make it a mandatory law that you don't enter the woods, not just the most dangerous places, but your little nature hikes and the rest of it, without a Personal Locator Beacon. Add to that a portable HAM Radio in the form of a walkie-talkie...and other signaling devices. We can make it just like a hunting or fishing license, you have to produce it on-demand of a Park Ranger or Department of Natural Resources Police Officer or you get a $5,000.00 fine. After all, the five grand will just go to the wilderness anyway or to the costs of your potential rescue, etc.

A PLB would have saved Mr. Kim's life. If it saves just one life, isn't it worth it?

 

[Don Rearic]

I dont know a single SAR who decides who is "worthy" and who is'nt to rescue.

That isn't what he said.

What a bunch of utter bullflop and an insult to the many professionals and volunteers who sacrifrice thier time to help others.

OK, do they sacrifice their time or are they paid to do so? I thought this was to help to defray the costs of SAR Missions?

After thousands of searches and rescues where one sees the SAME mistakes and lack of gear, preparation and training, or the many that are ungrateful and verbally abusive, it is perfectly NORMAL to vent.

If the grateful don't outweigh the ungrateful and the whole thing has left a bitter taste in your mouth, perhaps you should quit. I DO understand what you're saying but it's also a reality that you have to be getting some satisfaction out of it, either the knowledge that you have helped someone in need, the excitement, the opportunity to practice your skills, etc. If you're "sacrificing" your time and all you're getting in return is verbal abuse from idiots, I would think you should quit.

I have every right to bitch about the nimrods.

Do you mean nimrods in the incorrect manner or the correct manner, it means "hunter" but some people refer to morons as "nimrods."

Its good to get it out of the system. Quit my job? yea ok, thats going to help. One less searcher.

Well, yeah! If you are not being satisfied by the job and you're "sacrificing" your time, i.e., not being paid or paid well, and a lot of the people you are rescuing are abusive idiots who don't prepare, just why DO you do it?

It would seem that the one member, "Wild Weasel" hit you close to home and you got more angry about it.

...give some goddamn respect to the people that do this because they want to. No one does this for the "rush" or for the glory. What crap. Insulting really.

done here.

OK, if you are "sacrificing" your time for nothing but a bunch of imbeciles who don't prepare and then verbally abuse you during or after their rescue, the only thing that would be left would be the adrenaline rush, the glory or because you like to do it on a physical level because you are able to practice those skills you like to do. I don't think "Wild Weasel's" post was off-base or insulting at all, your own words point to the fact that you are the type of person he is talking about, but you are so angry you can't even see the irony of your own words.

 

[timcsaw]

Don,
You do realize that this law already exists, has for some time, and its only recently that the standard has changed right?

 

[Don Rearic]

Tim,

You do realize that I prefaced my remarks by saying that my ire was drawn by the absurdity of a person saying that a person should lose their home, right? I mean, you're actually reading what I am writing and not simply interpreting what you want to, right?

You guys are a smart bunch, but sometimes you can't see the forest for the trees...

 

[timcsaw]

Tim,

You do realize that I prefaced my remarks by saying that my ire was drawn by the absurdity of a person saying that a person should lose their home, right? I mean, you're actually reading what I am writing and not simply interpreting what you want to, right?

You guys are a smart bunch, but sometimes you can't see the forest for the trees...

Was that a "yes", or a "no" Don?