N.H. toughens up its negligent hiker laws

Don Rearic said:
You're advocating debtor's prison at this point. That's not what this country is supposed to be about anyway.
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I think that this is a silly perspective that many are taking..and not one that is founded in American principles
 
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gunknifenut said:
....If you dont want to rescue someone..then stop all the 911 services, right now. Why is it somehow different to be in trouble in the WOODS then in the inner city, or in an American suburb. Why can I call for help when I am "Johny on the block" and not "Johny Appleseed" walking accross America.
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Its not, jsut like its no diffrent to abuse the fact taht someone can come help you, it makes no diffrence where you are, if you abuse the fact that these people com out to help you when/where ever you are, then you should be punished. If you was $50,000 worth of their time then you should pay for it.

gunknifenut said:
I mean, really, in a weird way, the idea that hiking is now so dangerous that we need a "licence" is admiting that the PC Bullshit we bitch about is right....
Paying to go out in the woods already happens, there are tons of camping spots that charge you to stay, BUT, I dont think you should need a license to be out in the woods, hunting is diffrent.

I understand that being a PUBLIC SERVANT can be risky..but shit, I joined the ARMY of my own free will, and would do it again..if I was 18 again!
I dont really see how going out with a flash light and searching for someone is any more risky than the beat cop pulling someone over..
It is when its -40*C with 30km hour winds and your heading to the top of a mountain to rescue some dumb shits A$$

(there could be a gun under every car seat remember!) and what about the unsung heros..the prison gaurds..that walk Americas most dangerous beat..Everyone they cross is potentialy dangerous.
I think this is another PC move that just makes me want to get farther away from all the folks out there...bullshit behind every tree.:barf:

Why do we pay taxes? Someone answer this..and dont tell me that its about Terrorists or Welfare
...I pay taxes..when I do..for public services.
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taxes smaxes, American principles, Canadian Principles, European Principles, Constitution, freedoms government oppression - IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THESE THINGS! they are NOT the issue here..... ........ whatever happened to PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY? nowadays its "me me me me me me me me me me me me", no regard for other peoples lives or time. No regard for the SAR worker who has to lose hours of work and wages to look for the lost unprepared hiker. No regard for the RISK that the Searcher has to go thru. No regard for the fact that a huge amount of people's lives are put on hold, that their families are stressed and worried about them, while they go look for the lost hiker/skier/whatever. No regard for the rest of the areas residents who are paying for the search thru taxes.

Its high time EVERYONE started taking responsibility and thinking about their actions. How will my actions today affect the family? how will my actions affect the community?

for god sakes its high time people LOSE the ME ME ME ME ME mentality and losing the gubmint (those who know me know i HATE the gubmint) intrusion/jackboot theories and start thinking about the world and people around them and start thinking about their choices affect others. (including their own families.....)

btw, love you all, even if i disagree with ya, its been a great 2008, its almost 2009, WHOOOO! rock and roll baby! )
 
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Flatlanders.... Sheesh.;)

ON EDIT: Just for a bit of info... at this very minute, it's minus -24 degrees (F) on Mt. Washington with wind speed at 71 miles per hour (that's a wind chill of minus -66 degrees (F)). Mt. Washington holds the record for the highest wind speeds ever recorded... on earth.

Let's go for a hike.;)
 
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Thats what this is about for me..I have said it before..and will say no more..(atleast not in this year!) ...If I have to pay taxes to idiots..the REAL idiots that feel they have something over you and me...then I want something outta that deal...something. And most of the time I feel like I am getting the shaft. The bottom line is, I have no problemn with either state, federal, or local taxes going to help people, real people.. that get into trouble. There was a time in this country that we would go to our brothers aid without pay...I miss that time.
happy New year you bunch of Gubment slackers...;)
 
Bufford said:
Taxes are paid to fund the emergency services and it is expected that they do their job as well as they are able to do with the resource they have. Now if we start measuring and regulating people's actions, then we are having to pay for regulation and enforcement of human behavior, both monetarilly and by loss of liberty.

Much of our money goes to regulation and enforcement of just about everything already, leaving less and less for services people really need, like infrastructure.

Bridges collapse, and they will make the news only briefly. Then its back to the same old news about human behavior, and how can it be changed through bans, regulation, enforcement and how this will make our lives so perfect, so safe, so nice,etc etc.

Perhaps the best way to ensure that accidents such as these don't ever happen again would be to just have the nanny states we have today introduce legislation that will ensure all people stay in their homes wrapped in bedclothes and never step outside again. And if they do even for just a moment- just throw the book at them. This is what the world is coming to, and swiftly.

This doesn't wash well with liberty, something that is in great shortage today.

People see these incidents, many learn, some don't and that is life accept it or not.
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I am going through all the posts in this thread and want to just say that I liked what you had to say here. Thanks for a good post, and hope to hear more from you. Gene
 
baldtaco-II said:
Sick. It's the kind of jackboot mentality I expect in my country. I always hold out a little bit more hope for liberty in America.
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This is exactly the kind of legislation that America needs. I do not want to go all political, but common sense laws are something this country desperately needs. It protects those who aren't stupid and punishes those who are.
 
tonym said:
I don't see a problem with the law, like Glenbad stated it will just make people think twice and be prepared.

Even if I was unprepared and in a survival situation; I would not give a crap about paying a bill "IF" I was lucky enough to be rescued.

As for my tax dollars......

I rather have my tax money go to some unprepared hiker than a politicians limo service, or a family who has been on welfare for there whole life and has no intention of getting off of it.

If my tax money doesn't go to SAR, it will go someplace else; its not like there going to lower my taxes cause people will be paying for rescues......
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I really like this post..and alot of the posts in it!!!! Tony, I agree..its not like they are gonna drop taxes when everyone "smartens up" ....just rescue those in need, and stop the snobbery.
 
dougo83 said:
This is exactly the kind of legislation that America needs. I do not want to go all political, but common sense laws are something this country desperately needs. It protects those who aren't stupid and punishes those who are.
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Whose stupin Dougo? I mean really...who is stupid? Are you the one who decides...thats just what America ordered...:thumbdn:
Listen..go get a copy of the Constitution..then read it. You will find that the idea that we NEED any laws telling us how to behave wouldnt have been smiled upon.
 
thats a whole nuther topic for a different thread. (and again, those that know me know that I hate any sort of gubmint intrusion on my life, that belief still does'nt make basic common sense irrelevant.)
 
HAPPY NEW YEAR, I love you guys...even the ones that cant stand my blather. :D:thumbup:;)
 
aw Happy New Years to you too GunKnifeNut! cheers! I enjoy yours and others posts on the subject, even if i disagree with some points.
 
gunknifenut said:
Whose stupin Dougo? I mean really...who is stupid? Are you the one who decides...thats just what America ordered...:thumbdn:
Listen..go get a copy of the Constitution..then read it. You will find that the idea that we NEED any laws telling us how to behave wouldnt have been smiled upon.
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I have read the constitution plenty of times. I have yet to find the part where it says I should have to pay to save your dumbass (not directed at you specifically) if you go off hiking and get lost because you were too stupid to pack a compass, map, whatever. Perhaps a different choice of wording could have been used. Point is, our gov't has wasted millions by protecting stupid people. Or lazy people. Whatever. It is ridiculous. My great-grandpa wasn't stuck in Bataan for years fighting so stupid people could get an easy ride over here. That's not what my brother fights for either. And it sure as hell isn't what the founding fathers wanted....

Also, what is stupid? Here ya go:

Dictionary.com:

stu⋅pid   /ˈstupɪd, ˈstyu‑/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [stoo-pid, styoo‑] Show IPA Pronunciation
adjective, -er, -est, noun
–adjective 1. lacking ordinary quickness and keenness of mind; dull.
2. characterized by or proceeding from mental dullness; foolish; senseless: a stupid question.
3. tediously dull, esp. due to lack of meaning or sense; inane; pointless: a stupid party.
4. annoying or irritating; troublesome: Turn off that stupid radio.
5. in a state of stupor; stupefied: stupid from fatigue.
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merriam-webster.com:

1stu·pid
Pronunciation: \ˈstü-pəd, ˈstyü-\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle French stupide, from Latin stupidus, from stupēre to be numb, be astonished — more at type
Date: 1541
1 a: slow of mind : obtuse b: given to unintelligent decisions or acts : acting in an unintelligent or careless manner c: lacking intelligence or reason : brutish
2: dulled in feeling or sensation : torpid <still stupid from the sedative>
3: marked by or resulting from unreasoned thinking or acting : senseless <a stupid decision>
4 a: lacking interest or point <a stupid event> b: vexatious , exasperating <the stupid car won't start>
&#8212; stu·pid·ly adverb
&#8212; stu·pid·ness noun
synonyms stupid , dull , dense , crass , dumb mean lacking in power to absorb ideas or impressions. stupid implies a slow-witted or dazed state of mind that may be either congenital or temporary <stupid students just keeping the seats warm> <stupid with drink>. dull suggests a slow or sluggish mind such as results from disease, depression, or shock <monotonous work that leaves the mind dull>. dense implies a thickheaded imperviousness to ideas <too dense to take a hint>. crass suggests a grossness of mind precluding discrimination or delicacy <a crass, materialistic people>. dumb applies to an exasperating obtuseness or lack of comprehension <too dumb to figure out what's going on>.
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America's 10 Most Dangerous Hikes - Mt. Washington, NH
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The Hike Known as the most dangerous small mountain in the world, 6,288-foot Mt. Washington boasts some scary stats: The highest wind velocity ever recorded at any surface weather station (231 mph) was logged here on April 12, 1934. And 137 fatalities have occurred since 1849. No surprise: Most are due to hypothermia&#8211;and not only in winter. "They call them the White Mountains for a reason."

Please understand also that treeline on Mt. Everest is aboput 15-18 thousand feet. The Tree line in the Whites is about 4100 ft. Would you climb to 17,000 with only shorts and a tee shirt?
 
It might be useful to know what the NH law actually says:

2 New Section; Search and Rescue Response Expenses; Recovery. Amend RSA 206 by inserting after section 26-b the following new section:

206:26-bb Search and Rescue Response Expenses; Recovery.

I. Any person determined by the department to have acted negligently in requiring a search and rescue response by the department shall be liable to the department for the reasonable cost of the department’s expenses for such search and rescue response. The executive director shall bill the responsible individual, firm, or corporation for such costs. Payment shall be made to the department within 30 days after the receipt of the bill, or by some other date determined by the executive director. If any person shall fail or refuse to pay the costs by the required date, the department may pursue payment in an independent legal action, or by settlement or compromise, and the responsible individual, firm, or corporation shall be liable for interest from the date that the bill is due and for legal fees and costs incurred by the department in obtaining and enforcing judgment under this paragraph. All amounts recovered shall be paid into the fish and game fund.

II. If any person fails to make payment under paragraph I, the executive director of the fish and game department may:

(a) Order any license, permit, or tag issued by the fish and game department to be suspended or revoked, after due hearing.

(b) Notify the appropriate state agency for suspension of any individual, firm, or corporate license issued by the state. This shall include directing the department of safety to suspend the person’s driver’s license pursuant to RSA 263:56 and certifying to any professional or corporation licensing board or commission of the individual’s, firm’s, or corporation’s failure to comply with this section. The professional or corporation licensing board or commission shall suspend or revoke any license, or undertake disciplinary action against the licensee.
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[emphasis added]

So the Fish & Game Department makes the determination, which creates a civil penalty - a debt.

No provision for imprisonment, but a "big stick" in the enforcement provisions.

No provision for any third party, such as parents or a spouse, to be responsible for the debt.

Money is the issue directly addressed. It's about money. F&G can't spend the money spent on S&R to stock lakes, ponds, and rivers (for example).

Indirectly, it creates an incentive not to "negligently" act so as to cause a S&R.

To behave "negligently" is to act (or fail to act) with failure to exercise ordinary, reasonable care under all the circumstances -- in the eyes of F&G. We have no history of how they will apply their authority. Some will view with alarm. Others will not.

Not sure if there is a right to court appeal of the determination of negligece.
 
Some outdoors activitys in Canada require you to have Survival Items with you, thats what parks should post, is a list of items and a few things you need to do before taking a hiking trip. If you don't have the items and did not do as the law requires then you have to pay for the Search and Rescue.

RickJ
 
RickJ said:
Some outdoors activitys in Canada require you to have Survival Items with you, thats what parks should post, is a list of items and a few things you need to do before taking a hiking trip. If you don't have the items and did not do as the law requires then you have to pay for the Search and Rescue.

RickJ
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This is something that is very difficult to enforce. It would be like a seat belt law for the woods. Instead of a seat belt you have gear. Who patrols around to enforce it? Would it be enforced by a civilian corps of tattle tales? Or would the the fine only be imposed if you are found to be without gear upon rescue? I am all for doing something to stop the frivolous use of emergency/rescue personnel, but is there really any way to do it?
 
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