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Naniwa Diamond Waterstones Review.

Discussion in 'Maintenance, Tinkering & Embellishment' started by DeadboxHero, Dec 9, 2016.

  1. DeadboxHero

    DeadboxHero Triple B Handmade Knives, Big Brown Bear Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Mar 22, 2014
    Here the quick facts about these stones

    they don't dish

    they polish higher then the grit rating

    they cut slow and can load

    they can cut all cemented carbides (vandium-81 hrc) and ceramic knives at 70 hrc

    they have do have feedback but its more subtle, very hard and smooth

    they come with a cleaning stone, its a smaller naniwa 220 grit traditional stone

    you can build a slurry

    also, a rust eraser can be used to remove load up.

    High cost 150-180 per stone yikes


    This is a specialized stone, not for everyone



    Pictures, videos and in depth content soon bros

    just wanted to share the low down.

    Im borrowing the 600, 800, and 3000 from a friend.

    stay sharp

    Shawn
     
    valknut and Mr.SATism like this.
  2. Rey HRH

    Rey HRH

    857
    Oct 6, 2014
    I'm not trying to be a smart you-know-what. But I question that you say they don't dish. They will wear even at some infinitesimal rate, right? And if you concentrate your use to some spot (even just saying not going all the way out to the corners), at some point the areas most used will wear away more than the areas not as well used.
     
  3. DeadboxHero

    DeadboxHero Triple B Handmade Knives, Big Brown Bear Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Mar 22, 2014
    Hahaha I know your not ;)
    Yes can dish, but it's measured in years rather then hours
    Especially if your not sharpening professionally
    But, yes technically everything dishes, just the laws of nature.

    We'll cover the finer details soon.

    No stone left unturned as they say :D :p
     
  4. Steel_Drake

    Steel_Drake Basic Member Basic Member

    181
    May 5, 2014
    Do you happen to own any DMT plates? If so, how does the cutting speed of the diamond waterstones compare to them?
     
  5. DeadboxHero

    DeadboxHero Triple B Handmade Knives, Big Brown Bear Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Mar 22, 2014
    Wayyy slower, I own a DMT extra coarse and a Atoma 140.

    But the lowest grit available is a 600 grit that leaves a much higher Finish then the rating

    I've destroyed my DMT from heavy use.

    Stripped the diamond in some areas and it delaminating, but I definitely got my money's worth.

    These stones are really more specialized for when a knife requires excellent finish and maximum stone life.

    They are fantastic at removing coarse scratches so you can reduce the stones needed for higher finishes

    I am still testing them to see if they are the solution to poor polishing stone options at higher grit for >4% Vanadium steels.
     
    valknut likes this.
  6. bucketstove

    bucketstove

    Sep 23, 2014
    Hi,
    have you been able to find out, or have any idea what percentage or how much weight of diamonds are contained?
     
  7. Jason B.

    Jason B. KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Jun 13, 2007
    Naniwa and most Japanese stone makers in general are very quiet about their stone making process.
     
  8. Steel_Drake

    Steel_Drake Basic Member Basic Member

    181
    May 5, 2014
    Sorry, I meant to ask whether you had any DMT plates at the same grits as the diamond waterstones. Since you appear not to, can you compare the cutting speed of the diamond waterstones to whatever other stones you do have at the same or similar grits?

    Thanks.
     
  9. DeadboxHero

    DeadboxHero Triple B Handmade Knives, Big Brown Bear Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Mar 22, 2014
    Steel Drake,

    I've only used an Atoma 1200 a few times, it cuts faster but I feel it cuts the steel too deep for a true 1200 grit edge. It's still fairly rough but it's faster then the 800 Diamond waterstone.
    But that of course changes as the diamonds strip off the plate while the Waterstone stays consistent.

    I thought very hard about what these stones compare to.

    I am very familiar with the Naniwa products since they are the stones I use the most day to day.

    I'd say that these stones are slower then the chosera but faster then the super stones.

    They fill a the gap between the high polish capability of the super stones and cutting efficiency of the Chosera stones with the negative being the cost of the stones and the reduced speed over the chosera.

    Jon, from Japanese knife Imports has a special 300 grit diamond waterstone that comes with a special disc shaped stone flattener, but it's $400!!!

    Its not economic for hobbyists and average Joe's but for professional sharpening it's saves money on 3-4 coarse stones per year and reduces time spent flattening.

    The big bonus is that it reduces the amount of stones needed to work up to a finishing stone.

    For example,

    Might be able to rock a 140 Atoma and go straight to a 800 diamond waterstone then a 3-6k stone finish

    Or, maybe a 600 atoma to the 3000 grit diamond waterstone.

    Or just rock the 600 diamond waterstone and move to Stroping at 1 micron diamond compounds for a solid polished toothy edge

    That way you can get the best of all worlds. Also you can save money and just Buy an Atoma replacement pad and stick it on the metal bottom of the diamond waterstone.

    I've go some more playing around to do.

    I think these are really more of a specialty stone. But I've been enjoying the edges I've been getting on my S90v BM 940-1 and no time wasting on lapping.

    Honestly I've been holding off on sharing more with you guys because I am still evaluating these stones.

    Ill crush it soon and share pictures and videos

    Shawn
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2016
  10. Sadden

    Sadden

    795
    Dec 19, 2011
    Do these stones have any abrasive besides diamond or are they just diamond/binder? I feel like theres probably other abrasives in there as well.
     
  11. DeadboxHero

    DeadboxHero Triple B Handmade Knives, Big Brown Bear Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Mar 22, 2014
    Honestly brother, I don't know,

    It's manufactured with a vitrified process, the exact process, grit volume is unknown.
    Otherwise I'd be making them myself lol:D

    I assume it's made to a similar style like vitrified tiles
    Heated to liquid and cooled rapidly.

    It is not using a binder because it does not release grit with water. It loads like sintered stones but doesn't dish or wear as fast.

    As far as there being other abrasives I guess we'll just have to take the manufacturers word that they are using industral diamonds just like how we take their word that they are using ceramics in the chosera/professional line.
     
  12. eKretz

    eKretz

    742
    Aug 30, 2009
    I was under the impression that these were sintered bond. Where did you get the info that they're vitrified bond? Looking forward to reading your impressions.
     
  13. hein31

    hein31

    24
    Mar 1, 2016
    I bought a chinese knock-off product:
    resin bonded chinese knock-off

    At the time i didn't even know, that there was a japanese original...

    From what i remember from searching after all available informations about the Naniwas all i got were well educated guesses. And i honestly think that Shawn did a good job in that regard.

    Generaly i could imagine a hybrid manufacturing process. First a medium temperature soft bonded vititrified process. The resulting soft bonded stone is then at lower temperature in a vacuum chamber loaded with resin to stabilize it or to load it up with additional polishing compounds. Because this very thin stone is mechanically unstable it is then glued to a substrate.

    The chinese stone is as slow as a Naniwa superstone/secialtystone. My best guess is, that for the lower price you get much less diamonds and some filler material like chromiumoxide (and surely a simple resin bonded only stone)... In general i'm satisfied with the chinese stones, you get what you pay for. They do sharpen ceramic knives and very hard tool steels. And they do it in a much finer grid than any Carborundum stone.
     
  14. bucketstove

    bucketstove

    Sep 23, 2014
    Nice link, nice to be able to compare manufacturers wholesale (~$4) and retail prices (~$10) ... and the reseller prices (~$80)

    I also also see some weights and dimensions
    resin/diamond top 1mm x 20mm x 70mm
    aluminum base 11mm x 20mm x 70mm
    and some weights
    43 grams LX-1533(1000#)
    41 grams LX-1534(3000#)
    39 grams LX-1535(6000#)
    40 grams LX-1536(12000#)

    they even have a bigger version with 2mm resin/diamond layer 16mm x 75mm x 200mm
    the weights seem close enough to reality

    so the diamond resin layer is at most
    4.9 grams of diamond at 29 cents per gram "wholesale" is at most $1.421
    or 1.722 grams of novolac phenollic resin less than 1 cent worth of resin wholesale
    and the base is 41.6 grams of aluminum (a pound or 453 grams is $.79 , so $.10 worth, call it $.30 for bar form)

    a one sided diamond plate would be at most .333 grams or $.10 of diamond



    info on how these can be made can be found in lots of patents on resin bonded abrasives
     
  15. HeavyHanded

    HeavyHanded

    Jun 4, 2010

    Please to link 29 cents for 5 carats.

    My experience with resin bonded diamond is limited to:

    228mm x 60mm x 17mm - 1200 - 600 grit / DARK BROWN
    Part # JS-0701 - NCD 1200/600 Diamond Stone - For CARBIDE ONLY.

    http://globaltooling.bizhosting.com/products/jointing-stones.html

    It works well on all steels for finish work and if used muddy it makes an excellent cosmetic polishing media. It does load up quickly and is slow - it can only be used for final finishing.
     
  16. bucketstove

    bucketstove

    Sep 23, 2014
    500 Gram / lot , US $0.28 / Gram here
     
  17. HeavyHanded

    HeavyHanded

    Jun 4, 2010
    Thanx!
     
  18. HeavyHanded

    HeavyHanded

    Jun 4, 2010
    Looking into these it appears the diamond layer is 1 mm thick?

    Does that sound right?
     
  19. hein31

    hein31

    24
    Mar 1, 2016
    Yes, that's what is said at all sites that sell the Naniwa diamond whetstones.

    My chinese cheap knock off has 2 mm, but i'm not sure about the amount of diamond. I retestetd these stones with one of my razors, the grit that is given is a bit lower, than what i estimate against my Naniwa Specialty stones. The 12000 stone delivers an insanely sharp edge, but not as aggressive on the shave as the edge i get of my Shapton 12K Pro (japanese series). Unfortunately i cannot compare the 12K to the Naniwa 12K Specialty stone, but i expect the Specialty stone to deliver a smoother edge and a higher, more refined polish.
     
  20. DeadboxHero

    DeadboxHero Triple B Handmade Knives, Big Brown Bear Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Mar 22, 2014
    yes, correct, I've been slacking on giving you guys the full write up.

    Broke my phone so there will be no pictures or videos for now.


    also I learned that these are resin bond thanks to hein31

    I didnt understand how because I was applying my experience with resin bonded naniwa super stones which are very soft

    but then I learned there is a whole world of different bond strengths and its not a simple as what type the bond is.

    these diamond stones have a very,very hard bond.

    I'd say these stones are specialty not necessity for the average dude they just cost too much and cut too slow.


    However,
    for the professional/hobbyist/heavy user you get a long lasting abrasive, almost zero dishing, great finish(very bright), true splash and go speed, they also take out scratches better which means bigger jumps; few stones ( the fewer stones used for sharpening the better less time for inconsistencies to add up freehand.)

    These are stones for geeks but even so they don't replace all of your other stones they just compliment your existing stone collection and are used for certain knives or tasks.

    They take a little to get used to the feedback they feel a little glassy but do have some feel to them kinda in between the naniwa pro and the dmt eef.

    Id rank the dmt EEF as the worst feedback stone ever haha

    what's interesting is that with very hard steels(62-65hrc) the naniwa pro losses some feedback but the naniwa diamond keeps its feedback and feels like its cutting better.

    haha also the 3k diamond wasn't the revolution I thought it would be for s110v, user skill is very important, any inconsistency in angle ruins that treetoping edge that can just skim above the skin and catch and cut hairs.

    My apex had to be bomb on the previous grit for the 3k to work otherwise it just felt like I was just moving back and forth on the stone with no results just a pretty finish.

    Then there was always that risk that I could round the edge from even the slightest angle variation of crush the edge and round it from too much pressure. The edges were sharp but not as sharp as they could be, so Id have to go back and be more careful, its funny because these stones have the ability to cut any steel but because they take longer then the naniwa chosera (pro) stones to sharpen with the micro inconsistencies in angle control can add up especially with s110v which is difficult in my experience to put a high polished tree topping edge when starting from dull.

    even with a perfect apex on s110v it still lost that treetoping edge from high polish very quickly.



    So, it seems that there is more to sharpening then just carbide tear out but overpolishing seems to reduces the performance in high carbide volume steels that might do better with deeper scratches to expose more of those carbides at the edge followed by just polish to refine those teeth and remove burr and foil edge but not enough to erase all the scratches.



    but thats all anecdotal, YMMV

    I'm open to anything.

    I know that experience will be different with different users and skill levels

    I'll share more soon.
     
    GregNYC likes this.

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