Naniwa Diamond Waterstones Review.

Discussion in 'Maintenance, Tinkering & Embellishment' started by DeadboxHero, Dec 9, 2016.

  1. DeadboxHero

    DeadboxHero

    Mar 22, 2014
    nice, I actually own the naniwa 12k super stone, thats my finishing stone for my straight razor, I do a 8k snow white to burr and then a 12k ss with a green compound strop. great shaving, very comfy
     
  2. HeavyHanded

    HeavyHanded

    Jun 4, 2010
    I picked up a diamond jointer stone from Global Tooling a while back and have had good luck with it in some respects.

    http://globaltooling.bizhosting.com/products/jointing-stones.html

    Its listed as "1200" but when I broke it down it looked like the particles were in the low single digit micron IIRC 3 micron average.

    Abrasive density is not very high based on grind speed, the resin is quite hard. It can be used with oil or water - if used with oil it makes a great mud for cosmetic polishing. Used with water or a light film of oil it loads rapidly and cleaning is a constant hassle.

    I use(d) it only for very final finish work as it is pretty much incapable of doing any sort of corrections - similar to OPs observations re the 3k. It makes a near mirror finish. I mostly use it with an old piece of saw blade to scrape off grit and use for a stropping compound on some abrasive free binder from my Washboard compound over 3 mil poly. It works great for this!

    Is a nice tool to have, but a few sheets of diamond lapping film probably more useful - cut faster and load less. Is a consideration though, 9x11 sheets of diamond film are not cheap.

    I'm looking forward to more review!

    [​IMG]
     
  3. hein31

    hein31

    24
    Mar 1, 2016
    In light of HeavyHanded's hint on resin stones beeing used with oil i retestet my chinese 12K diamond stone with oil. I took a new ZY with factory grind, tested the geometry and found it to be almost perfect, except for small portions of the head and toe, as usual. Took it to a Naniwa Specialty stone with 10K artificial Nagura (Metalmaster) to mud it and soon enough the edge would be good enough to continue. To achive the complete polish for the entire bevel i took the 12K diamond stone and mudied it with 15K artificial Nagura and some thirty strokes later the entire bevel looked very shiny. Then i cleaned up the stone, the Nagura really helps with holding the stone clean. I wiped the stone with my palm and let it dry and applied oil. I did some twenty strokes, the last ten really light ones, carefully concentrating on the critical head and toe issue. Then no linen stropping and fourty on leather.

    The testshave was awesome. Unfortunately the level of sharpness and keenness is above my skill level, the edge is so unforgiving sharp, that even the slightest mistake has bloody consequences. I'm used to natural finishers like a welsh 15K slate (with oil) or a very good Guanghxi 12K stone, so my way to handle the blade is obviously adapted to a different characteristics of "sharp". What surprised me extremely: the imroved edge i previously got from using the diamond hone with my water, dish-detergent, and oil mix (parts 4-1-1) was somehow transformed even further. I think with the perfect handling the level of smoothness is almost up to the welsh slate. However the keenness makes it a very dangerous fellow...

    I think for the 45 USD minus three bucks rebate from some Aliexpress promotion thing it is a good finisher. And thanks to this discussion i retested it and found that it's capabilities were much above my level of skill in honing, when i first approached these stones. In spite of the general recommendation not to use diamond hones with razors i can fully recommend these hones. No microchipping, not the tiniest breakouts and usable with water and oil. It obviously benefits from high grid naguras and can set a final edge with oil that is far above anything i ever achieved with my Shapton Pro 12K and CrOx stropping. Handle with care! :D
     
  4. GMillsy

    GMillsy

    3
    Jan 22, 2017
    Hi DeadboxHero,
    I am wanting to get my first Whetstones and I very much like to purchase top quality that is going to perform as well as possible and last as long as possible for this reason I am considering the Naniwa Diamond waterstones but I am unsure which to get, I am thinking of purchasing two, the 1000, and 6000 grit. Would this be a good choice for maintaining knives as I dont need to restore any though I would like to get rid of the odd black spot that pops up on occasion.

    Your advice would be much appreciated :)
    GMillsy
     
  5. DeadboxHero

    DeadboxHero

    Mar 22, 2014
    I'd talked you out of them if its your first stones,

    Its not that they are not good, its that they are very specific and if not used for a very specific purpose there ia not enough value.

    Other stones like the chosera/professional series or the Shapton Glass are cheaper and cut faster.

    The naniwa diamond stones are finishing stones, they enhance more then create

    Honestly I really enjoy the performance on the Naniwa diamond stones, I get great edges with awesome finishes for super steels past 4% vanadium. The down side is it takes longer to sharpen, and its very easy to overpolish the edge since these stones finish so high and cut so slow.

    a 1k to 6k might be too much polish for a utility fixed/folder. Don't get me wrong its a lot of fun and the sharpness would be bomber, but the edge will not last with that much polish and it will soon "rub" then stead of "cut" when the apex deforms so it will need more honing to keep up.

    I have not used the 1k, 6k

    hahaha geez I get overpolishing problems on occasion just at 800-3k

    so I imagine that the 1k-6k might be too high unless your rocking some very hard kitchen knives and need the highest amount of precision possible over edge retention.

    also the Naniwa's are different then Jon's stones at JKI

    They look the same though.

    Even King has a diamond waterstone, just not available to the us market

    but yeah, most dudes want,need and like toothy edges whether they know it or not.

    the polished edges are my favorite though so I hope you are as confused as possible now :D hahaha

    take care man.

    shawn
     
    J.K 83 likes this.
  6. GMillsy

    GMillsy

    3
    Jan 22, 2017

    Thanks yes I am confused lol, I really don't know enough about neither the steels nor the whetstones. Perhaps it would help if I inform you as to the types of knives I want to be sharpening and the stones I have on option, I am in Australia.
    Knives you will likely have heard of are the;
    Fallkniven F1 Custom Blade Steel: VG-10 Hardness: 59RC,
    Fallkniven KRUT, F1 Pro, Steel: Lam.CoS Blade hardness: 60 HRC
    Bark River Essential, Steel: CPM M-4 @ 63-64rc
    Bravo 1 mini Steel: CPM S35VN @ 58rc
    Shun Blade type: Laminated Blade construction: VG-10, clad in stainless Damascus, Blade hardness: HRC 61

    I really only have three options for purchasing whetstones due to massive shipping charges from the US, such as wanting $137 AUD for shipping of 1 small knife! (From KNIVESHIPFREE mind you, I was quite shocked given the company name)
    https://www.japanesetools.com.au/collections/sharpening-stones
    http://www.kitchenwarehouse.com.au/Search-KWH?stq=whetstone
    http://www.cuttingedgeknives.com.au/search_product.php?searchtxt=whetstone

    Perhaps the Shun or Global or other other version of the Naniwa whetstones?
     
  7. DeadboxHero

    DeadboxHero

    Mar 22, 2014
    skip the last two links, nothing good there.

    I'd get the 300/1000 diamond plate combo, comes with holder too

    then I'd get the Suehiro cerax 3000

    you can use your diamond plate to maintain your waterstone.

    There are a lot of details to give you but its just overload, this will get you started with the least amount of initial investment and you will have a full set-up to do everything.



    I don't think the diamond waterstones would be worth it for you right now, but if you really wanted one I'd get the 3k diamond waterstone rather then suehiro
     
  8. GMillsy

    GMillsy

    3
    Jan 22, 2017
    Thanks a lot for your advice, its much appreciated :D
     
  9. DeadboxHero

    DeadboxHero

    Mar 22, 2014
    ^NP, brother :)

    Here are some pictures that I never got around to sharing.

    Hap40 steel Delica on the 800 grit stone.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Hap40 isn't a bear to grind like other steel's can be. At least not on this Spyderco, kitchen knives in Hap40 "voodoo" steel feel like "glass" on ceramic stones but these naniwa stones still seem to provide feedback; you can feel them cutting when your at your angle.

    This is what the cleaning stone that's provided looks like.

    [​IMG]

    It's just a piece of the naniwa 220 grit traditional stone ; a very soft coarse stone.

    [​IMG]
    In my experience it's not as effective at removing load up as just the plain old chosera Nagura that used to come with all the chosera stones with the bases.




    Here are tips with these stones that I've been learning.

    - you can jump from 140 grit atoma to the 800, 3000 on small bevel stuff but not on big bevels or if you want a true mirror.

    - deburring gives you instant feedback since after a few passes you can feel the burr fragments "crunc" on the stone as you make further passes. This can also be kinda of annoying since you have to clean off the burr fragments to continue.

    - these stones stay dead flat. The 3k is perfect for starting a fresh edge on a straight razor before moving to a higher finish.

    - soft steel's seem to load up wayyy to fast and these stones are on the slower side so they should just be used for specific knives.

    I'll make a video soon and share more pictures later.
     
    willc likes this.
  10. adamlau

    adamlau

    Oct 13, 2002
    I am currently in a position to recommend a maintenance stone to the back house of a sushi restaurant. While I have previously indicated my personal disdain regarding the use of diamond abrasives for knives, the dish resistance of diamond stones is something that cannot be overlooked for a product that will sit on a commercial kitchen counter for daily touch ups. That being said, I am leaning towards pushing the new iWood #12000 (JIS) which apparently uses a non-resinoid, ceramic binder for greater durability over their Naniwa counterparts and are reasonably priced. Perhaps the idea was to leverage the binder as a cutting agent? I figure to drop by and test out the stone for myself just to see how slow/fast it cuts...
     
  11. DeadboxHero

    DeadboxHero

    Mar 22, 2014
    Updates on Diamond Waterstones


    The 1mm abrasive is holding up great. No dishing.

    I don't jump from 140 atoma to 800.

    Too big a jump, this 800 stone doesn't have the cutting power to finish out those scratches. The only stone that can is the 800 grit Vitrified Diamond Gesshin Stone for $400

    Now I do a 400 atoma or a 400 Venev Diamond to the 800.

    Last and most importantly.

    DON'T USE OTHER FINE NAGURA stones to clean the load up.

    The 220 grit NAGURA it comes with is important for dressing the surface to keep the diamond "poking" out of the hard resin bonder.

    A finer NAGURA actual smooths the resin over the diamond and keeps the diamond from cutting as effective, slows down sharpening and reduced the crispness of the edge.

    Also a soapy water mix in a spray bottle help reduce load up. But I find that if you just use a 400 grit stone to do the hard work on the bevel its much less time and load up to finish on the 800 grit and remove all the 400 scratches to a KILLER 800 grit edge.

    Over the past two years I've been using these stones and have been constantly evaluating.

    I noticed criper edges for high vanadium, high alloy, high hardness powder steels.
    Then if I'm using other means to get polished edges ranging from 800 grit up to 3k.
    My other ceramic stones CAN still make the edge sharp. But over the years through on going use and testing with

    K390
    S110v
    10v
    S30V
    Maxamet
    S35vn
    M4
    4v
    Cruwear
    Hap40

    I've noticed a crisper edge then what I get with the same grit in ceramic abrasive.

    The Venev Diamond have similar performance with a better price then the Naniwa, however the Naniwa creates the superior edge and finish at increased price.

    Might be marginal for some, or a big deal to others, depending on how discerning the sharpens is and what there skill level is.

    Maxamet saw the best benefits with diamond waterstones, I cannot get Maxamet as sharp without these stones.

    It's been an interesting journey to discover all these little details that can only be found with constant use, experience and evaluating.

    I'll update again in a few more years if things change

    Shawn
     
  12. DeadboxHero

    DeadboxHero

    Mar 22, 2014
    Here is a video at the Eugene Knife Show where I show Hans from Benchmade how to freehand knife sharpen.

    I was telling him that freehand isn't that hard to do and that I could teach him fast.

    Lots of details

    I'm using the Naniwa 800 diamond, I first show the difference between the chosera and the diamond.

    I'm having him sharpen my cpm 4v knife at 64hrc.



     
  13. catalystman80

    catalystman80

    844
    May 1, 2013
    Great information Shawn!
    Was wondering if I could pick your brain. So you mentioned that going from Atoma 140 to the Naniwa Diamond 800 is too big of a jump. Is going from Naniwa 800 to 3000 also too big of a jump? (or not as much compared to 140 to 800?). Do you typically go through the 3000 in your progression for Maxamet and other high alloyed steels, or do you use 3000 only for specific steel and/or application? Would greatly appreciate any insight you'd be willing to share. Thanks!

    Josh

     
  14. DeadboxHero

    DeadboxHero

    Mar 22, 2014
    No, 800 to 3000 is not a big jump.
    Its not about the numbers you have to remember the 140grit is deep cut, deep scratches! The coated abrasives are fully exposed allowing deeper cutting too.The 800 Naniwa doesn't have the cutting power to smooth those scratches out due to the hard resin bond, Unless you want to take FOREVER.

    3k is not necessary for most knives it's just to show off or if you want more precision.
     
    Mo2 likes this.
  15. catalystman80

    catalystman80

    844
    May 1, 2013
    That makes sense, thanks for the reply!

     
  16. DeadboxHero

    DeadboxHero

    Mar 22, 2014
    [​IMG]
     
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  17. Dangerously

    Dangerously

    Jan 8, 2013
    Did you thin out the primary grind on that s110v pm2? I’ll bet it cuts like the dickens.
     
    DeadboxHero likes this.
  18. DeadboxHero

    DeadboxHero

    Mar 22, 2014
    Yes it's 0.004" behind the shoulder of the bevel
     
    PeterS84 and Mo2 like this.
  19. Sebbyr

    Sebbyr

    2
    Jul 15, 2018
    Quick question on your Naniwa Diamond stones DeadboxHero, has the writing on your label for the 3000# stone 'disappeared'?

    I have one that is virtually brand new, and it was sitting in water (for an hour or so) while I was using courser stones and I noticed that the writing on the label has gone, I also have a 6000# Naniwa Diamond that was in the same pond for the same amount of time and it still has the writing on it.

    I purchased them both through Amazon from different suppliers, what are the chances my 3000# is a fake?
     
  20. DeadboxHero

    DeadboxHero

    Mar 22, 2014
    It wipes off, also don't soak the stone, no need, it's splash and go only.
     
    Sebbyr likes this.

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