Native question - Need help.

The short version:
440V-Good
Colors other than black-Good
Blade coatings-Bad

To get the average ELU to respond to 440V with a price increase, you may need to come up with some sort of advertising campaign extolling the better steel. Especially if they have a choice, they may just opt for the cheaper model, or think the price increase is for the blue zytel.
Paul
 
Sal,
I think the key here is in educating the general public as to the advantages of 440V over the steels that they are used to buying. Most people are not stupid, and when informed that the reason they are paying a little more now will benefit them in the long run with a higher quality product, it will take the sting out of shelling out the few extra duckies.
The Native is already a great product. It has "the look". You know, it fairly screams "Look at me! Pick me up! Use me! I am capable!"
When I first saw it, I was entranced by it's "look". I HAD to have it & it is a first rate user.
Upgrading it this way can only make a good thing better. If the John Q's know it, I think they will want it too. A little knowledge goes a long way.
Powering down "hard sell" mode... now!
smile.gif


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The individualist without strategy who takes opponents lightly will inevitably become the captive of others.


 
I've got the BF Native and have been looking hard at the stock version as a 2nd, and there's no comparison in my mind...but that's hardly news in this forum.

I agree with several others that the difference in steel types will be lost to most customers.

While doing the shops (looking at the Natives), I've had a lot of opportunity to show other shoppers and salespeople, my BF Native in comparison to the stock version.

This usually garners some admiration and remarks that the BF version feels more solid and has a more hefty feel to it. Mentioning the 440V steel to them (even to most salespeople) usually gets a glazed expression. To them, the cheap version is sharp and it cuts too.

I think a dual-line approach, such as already done with several other models, would be workable. What's not clear is whether the steel improvement alone will result in sufficient product differentiation for most people, especially without the G-10.

You'd probably have to call it something like Native-Plus or something so most people know it's supposed to be the better item.

In some ways, it harkens to the Sebenza vs Pinnacle thing. To some people, the added quality is evident and is something they will pay for, and to others, it may seem (and may be) a waste of money for their purposes. Afficionados will pay and others will not.

[This message has been edited by Longden (edited 17 October 1999).]
 
If the lightweight Native is targeted towards the "average Joe/Jane" ELU, CPM-440V likely won't make a difference to a price conscious consumer. Yes, a superior product, but somehow I get the feeling Delica sales would be up at the expense of a higher priced Native.

As much as I'd like to add a CPM-440V Native to the collection, multiple SKUs in this case just don't make good economic sense to me.

Sal, were you originally thinking you could hold at the same pricepoint, then 440V went up? Related question, do you anticipate Japanese steel prices eventually going up again with the strengthening of the Yen?

Joel
 
Sorry I didn't mean just 10 bucks,I meant 10 bucks extra wouldn't be at all out of align for a knife with the 440v steel.
 
I feel was are not taking into account the fact that the average knife buyer knows quite a bit more about steel's than they once did. If I am wrong how do you explain the popularity of ats 34? I say produce both but the 440V is the way to go in my view.

Regards,

Tom Carey
 
Tom, re the popularity of ATS-34, consider this: two years ago, ATS-34 was the new wunder steel on the block, and all the knifeknuts wanted it. Now all the major knife companies have caught up to the trend, and, with the exception of Spyderco, it's kinda hard to find a current production knife that isn't ATS-34, or its cousin 154CM. I don't think that's so much a conscious choice of knife buyers, but a lack of alternatives. (Kinda like black handles, yes they're selling well, but is that because people love black, or because there is no other choice?)

I like 440V very much, but think it may be overkill to fit it on a "value priced" knife at a cost increase approaching 25%. It unbalances the knife, kinda like putting a turbo and 4wd in a VW bug. Unless you start adding other upgrades, like the marvelous BF Native's G10 handle, but then they're not offering a "value priced" knife for first time buyers any more.

My $0.02,
-- Carl

[This message has been edited by Carl Jacobsen (edited 17 October 1999).]
 
The unknown factor here seems to be whether the average knife buyer will recognize the difference in steel and be willing to pay more. Even if both models are made, the sales may not produce a clear answer to the question. Seems like a crap shoot to me. Sorry, Sal, I know that's not a very good answer.
frown.gif


If you are making the dark blue handles and adding the black coating as a way to attract regular knife buyers, that might work. You probably have enough market surveys to know which changes affect sales. Is the coating a way to introduce the "tactical" look to improve sales? Or is the coating a protection thing (to be marketed as such)? The reason for making one with the coating is not entirely clear to me.

As an afficionado the dark blue handle as a differentiator to distinguish between regular Lite weight Native and Lite weight Native Plus with better steel would please me. I would not want a coated blade in a utility knife.

Thanks for asking us. I hope our answers provide some help.
 
Sal,
You know that forumites are not the typical knife buying public.
I would think that for the bulk of your ELUs, the quality of the steel
means little, as long as it's sharp out of the box and doesn't rust.
If the better steel makes it harder to sharpen, so much the worse.
The non-black handles however would make the Native jump out in a
display case full of very similar looking knives.

I don't care for black blades and I would imagine that they would
attract some people and frighten others off.

Navy blue, maroon, hunter green handles, either one would work.
Get the customer to say "Let me see the blue one".
After that, the obvious quality will complete the sale.
Aren't you sorry you asked
wink.gif

Doc
 
Dark blue handles, 440V blade, with Titanium Carbonate coating would be very cool IMHO.
Please don't say your thinking of using a black Teflon coating like Benchmade uses, I hate that stuff.

------------------
LD
"Every Dog Has His Day"
BFC Member Since October 2, 1998

 
Sal,
Although I'd gladly pay $10 or so more for higher quality steel, I'm not sure that the average knife buyer would. (You didn't ask the question, but I'd love to see a 440V Native with a dark blue, green or maroon G-10 handle.)

Two anecdotes:
Earlier this year, one of my camp neighbors mentioned he was going to buy a folder -- his second after a SAK -- & asked for my advice. He had looked at a Jaguar & wanted my opinion. I advised him against buying such a POS & showed him a couple of the Spydies that I had w/me at the time, including a stainless Native. Long story short, he wound up buying a Zytel Native that he's very happy with. He did, however, comment that if it had not been for my advice he would have bought on price alone.

The second story concerns a long-time hunting & camping buddy. As much as Pete could appreciate fine firearms, knives did nothing for him. Another buddy & I would be showing off our most recent acquisitions & Pete would say something like, "It's a knife. Very nice but I already have one."

Blade steel aside, I think a non-black handle is a great idea. As others have commented, it should make the piece stand out in the display case from all those black handles.

As to coating the blade, I am not a fan regardless of whether or not the steel is stainless. I've had experience with several coating and the only one that has really stood up is that used by REKAT. All the rest quickly started to scratch & chip, detracting from the knives' appearance.

------------------
Cheers,

--+Brian+--


 
I'm tellin' ya, if you show John Q. Public the performance increase he/she will get with the 440V they'll go for it.
Tell them how they will not have to sharpen as often, that perks up lots of people's ears.
Non-knife people who are knife users generally do not like to sharpen those pocket knives they so like to carry and use.
There are lots of good selling points with 440V.
Use'em.

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The individualist without strategy who takes opponents lightly will inevitably become the captive of others.


 
Sal,

I think Paul and misque are correct in their comments about Joe Average not knowing the difference and that your in store display aids must teach them. I don't think ads in knife rags will do it.

Tom says he thinks the buying public is smarter about steels. Incrementally I'd agree but overall no. I suspect much of their "increased" knowledge is really trend following as with ATS-34.

My bottom line is that for those potential customers to whom the $10 isn't going to be a disqualifer, they'd consider the upscale Native if they were provided with info at the point of sale which tells them why their $10 extra would be extremely well spent.

I really like my BFC Native and the non-black color makes it less threatening to the public at large in my view. Forego the black coating too as it not only doesn't add to the functionality of CPM440V, it runs contrary to using non black handles.... you know, going non "tactical".

Do you use test market areas with help from your distributors? If so introduce the upscale Native in those markets and see how it does first. I don't see any reason to have both a GIN-1 and CPM440V model with only $10 seperating them either. One or the other should serve.

------------------
-=[Bob Allman]=-

I did NOT escape from the institution! They gave me a day pass!

BFC member since the very beginning
Member: American Knife & Tool Institute
......... Varmint Hunters Association
......... National Rifle Association
......... Praire Thunder Inc.
......... Rapid City Rifle Club
......... Spearfish Rifle & Pistol Club
pending: Buck Collectors Club (prime interest: 532s)
Certified Talonite(r) enthusiast!

 
Just to add to my earlier remarks...

I've been into this knife thing comparatively recently. I only bought my Kershaw 2415(?) liner lock late last year and my BM330 early this year. Prior to that it was SAK after SAK.

In making my first two buys, it was all on the feel of the knife and how its size suited my purpose. Sales pitching the steel went right over my head... kinda like computer features for the non-computer people.

I didn't really start appreciating the details till I got bit...
 
Sal,
As a veteran market researcher I would say the difference would
lie in the color. Knife buying is an emotional proposition.
Color is the key to the emotions.
The research should focus on exactly what shade of blue/red/green
evokes the most positive emotion in the knife-buying population.
The BF Native combined all the best materials for a knife and was a failure.
Even in this enlightened marketplace they couldn't sell 500.
How many could you sell at K-Mart at $100 ?
Doc
 
Ithink a dark blue 440V Native is a great idea. I realize that everybody who buys a Spyderco is not a knifenut but seriously I don't think too many people who are really casual about knives would buy a Spyderco of any kind. A really bidget minded person is going to buy something in the $10-$30 range where Spyderco has nothing anyway. Anyone who would a Native would be a serious user and could probably be convinced to give up $10 more if the difference is made clear. i still want to see the Chief next year.
 
Sal,

I guess it really boils down to how your Marketing Dep't can come up with justifying the $10 difference between the regular and the 440V Native. I know that people who buy knives (whether a knife knut or otherwise) will reconsider, as long as the price difference is justified. How to do it? Well, that may be your BEST chance to finally "educate" the knife-buying public.
smile.gif


Dan
 
I am considering getting a Native soon my wish is for a better steel. If a person is uninitiated in knives and actually concerned with getting a quality product they will ask someone who is hopefully knowledgable. If I were told 440v is a good bit better than
GIN-1 then the $10 is very much worth it. If a person cares little for what they are getting then steel will be the last of their concerns vice it looks cool and it is a popular brand. Just a thought.

------------------
JC

The superior man is modest in his speech but excels in his actions.

Confucius


 
Sal,
I know you are probably getting sick of requests like this, but I'm going to throw in my $.02 anyway. I'm probably not even the first person to ask for this.

I would really love a knife in the Native profile with a flat ground blade of 440V. I know the Caylpso Jr is in that size range, but I was thinking something a little more robust. Same shape blade as current native with a flat ground, dystal tapered blade like the Military. The choil would make it more secure than the Calypso Jr and more useful for hard work. I think it would even make a dandy little hunter. I won't even get into the handle, make it zytel, steel, G10 or titanium or whatever. This would be a model that would appeal to the uninitiated also IMO. No hump, medium size, more traditional blade grind (ie doesn't look "double edged"). I know that Spyderco has made its name doing the nontraditional, but I think this would be the best of both worlds.

Signed,
Another Knife Knut Bent on Making Your Life More Complicated Than It Already Is (at least that's my exSKUse)
 
I too would pay the extra 10 for the 440V.
Not only that - I will place an advanced order. What would really be great - the colored grip - Dark Blue - Forest Green - Olive Drab - Dark Grey - Denim Blue - and for fun... Multi Colors or designs. A Simple teflon washer on either side of the blade would be wonderful. I ordered 2 Native - and one was nice and smooth - the other was notchy, gritty and not fun to open at all.

Anything you can do to the Native is great... Like making it bigger...
smile.gif


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I mean, if I went around saying I was an Emperor because some
moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, people would put me away!

 
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