Native question - Need help.
- Thread starter Sal Glesser
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I think there is a posiblity that low end ELU's might get really hacked off trying to sharpen 440V especially if they do not have good sharpening eqipment (mind you not a bad sales pitch for a 204)
I am all in favour of better steel as standard as I prefer using my knives to sharpening them. A different handle colour would be good too. (now what about a burgandy micarta handled Calypso Jnr with 440V and a reversable clip
)
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Harvey Wareham
Live Long & Prosper, so you can buy more knives
I am all in favour of better steel as standard as I prefer using my knives to sharpening them. A different handle colour would be good too. (now what about a burgandy micarta handled Calypso Jnr with 440V and a reversable clip
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Harvey Wareham
Live Long & Prosper, so you can buy more knives
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I supposed this is a really bad time to ask a really stupid question, but I'm gonna do it anyway....
I suppose an ATS-55 Native Lightweight is out of the question, eh?
As for Gin-1 vs. 440V, I'd probably opt for the Gin-1 and save the money, based on my experience with both. Yeah, I still have to send my BF Native back. I'm going to! I just haven't gotten a chance yet.
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Sometimes you're the windshield; sometimes you're the bug.
Outlaw_Dogboy
I suppose an ATS-55 Native Lightweight is out of the question, eh?
As for Gin-1 vs. 440V, I'd probably opt for the Gin-1 and save the money, based on my experience with both. Yeah, I still have to send my BF Native back. I'm going to! I just haven't gotten a chance yet.
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Sometimes you're the windshield; sometimes you're the bug.
Outlaw_Dogboy
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I'm curious. Why the change to 440v? Does Spyderco want to make the Native an All-American knife and not use a foreign steel like ATS 34, 55, or Aus 10. The Native is my favorite clipit and I love all its incarnations. I just hope that in marketing a CPM 440V Native to non-knifenuts, you make it clear that this steel has a higher performance and you explain how it must be sharpened. I like the idea of dark blue also.
Sal,
I am all for the steel upgrade and will be happy to pay the extra 10 bones. That is after I get a Starmate....
As for the coating, please refrain from using any unless you plan to use the one Microtech is using now. Not the black one but the other(I feel like an idiot cause I can't remember what it is called. Every now and then I suffer from CRS, "can't remember Sh__")
Anyone want to help me out here?
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The greatest thought that has ever entered my mind is that one day I will have to stand before a Holy God and give an account of my life.
*Daniel Webster
Rev 20:12
[This message has been edited by Scarman (edited 20 October 1999).]
I am all for the steel upgrade and will be happy to pay the extra 10 bones. That is after I get a Starmate....
As for the coating, please refrain from using any unless you plan to use the one Microtech is using now. Not the black one but the other(I feel like an idiot cause I can't remember what it is called. Every now and then I suffer from CRS, "can't remember Sh__")
Anyone want to help me out here?
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The greatest thought that has ever entered my mind is that one day I will have to stand before a Holy God and give an account of my life.
*Daniel Webster
Rev 20:12
[This message has been edited by Scarman (edited 20 October 1999).]
I' ll say that REDMAG is on the money! The current Natives (BF Edition mostly) can be improved with a chamfer (scallops) on both sides of the scales. Better for bigger thumbs and curious women with longer fingernails!! No kidding. With that in mind, and blue color scales the blue jeans wearing womens population market may be tapped into. What do you think?
L8r,
Nakano
L8r,
Nakano
Sal,
You may have already reached your decision but I will weigh in anyway.
I would say that the 440V would sell well to the ELU with a $10.00 bump in price in stores where someone understands enough to explain that the 440V Blade will go X times as long without sharpening. That is how I sell customers on ATS-34 today in a specialty knife shop.
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AKTI Member No. A000370
You may have already reached your decision but I will weigh in anyway.
I would say that the 440V would sell well to the ELU with a $10.00 bump in price in stores where someone understands enough to explain that the 440V Blade will go X times as long without sharpening. That is how I sell customers on ATS-34 today in a specialty knife shop.
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AKTI Member No. A000370
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Sal - The original Native cannot be improved on, and should stay available; however, there is certainly room for a new and improved model. The Blade Forums Native is one of the smoothest handling Spydercos I have ever handled; along with steel choice, and the handle material and color, are very impressive. To illustrate' I have been displaying the BF Native in my knife display case at local gun shows, along with numerous models of Spydercos for sale. The BF Native is clearly marked not for sale. It receives more attention than all the rest combined. The two characteristics most often remarked on, are: 1- Smoothness of action/opening & closing; 2- Material & color of handles. Every person who has handled that knife, wanted to buy it; (I still have it; & I ain't selling it!).
Finaly, IMH opinion; you should retain the production model, because of its' price and general utility; but produce a Native similar in quality and features of the Blade Forums model.
It is a great knife, in either configuration.
John Earp
Finaly, IMH opinion; you should retain the production model, because of its' price and general utility; but produce a Native similar in quality and features of the Blade Forums model.
It is a great knife, in either configuration.
John Earp
- Joined
- Jul 9, 1999
- Messages
- 3,316
You know Sal,
the blue scales are real eye catchers and I think the other's have a good point in that colors are one way to go.
I'm like many others in that I have lots of black handles on my carry knives.
Black, for some reason, is perceived as "threatening" to the General Public, and other, brighter colors are not perceived by the general public as threatening but more tool-like.
Look at Gigand's new line. Those are some really neat looking knives that don't look "Dangerous" or "Threatening" with green or blue or yellow handle scales. They take on a new persona (more like a tool as opposed to a weapon)with the colored scales and I think they might end up being a real hit for Gigand.
I don't care for them due to the lack of a guard or choil but still I find myself looking at them and thinking how non-threatening and well, neat, they look. I have to keep reminding myself that I'm not going to buy one for that lack of a choil, however, I see them and the urge to get one renews itself.
Imagine a green or red or even a light grey handled Native in 440V...
Just a thought!
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The individualist without strategy who takes opponents lightly will inevitably become the captive of others.
[This message has been edited by misque (edited 23 October 1999).]
the blue scales are real eye catchers and I think the other's have a good point in that colors are one way to go.
I'm like many others in that I have lots of black handles on my carry knives.
Black, for some reason, is perceived as "threatening" to the General Public, and other, brighter colors are not perceived by the general public as threatening but more tool-like.
Look at Gigand's new line. Those are some really neat looking knives that don't look "Dangerous" or "Threatening" with green or blue or yellow handle scales. They take on a new persona (more like a tool as opposed to a weapon)with the colored scales and I think they might end up being a real hit for Gigand.
I don't care for them due to the lack of a guard or choil but still I find myself looking at them and thinking how non-threatening and well, neat, they look. I have to keep reminding myself that I'm not going to buy one for that lack of a choil, however, I see them and the urge to get one renews itself.
Imagine a green or red or even a light grey handled Native in 440V...
Just a thought!
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The individualist without strategy who takes opponents lightly will inevitably become the captive of others.
[This message has been edited by misque (edited 23 October 1999).]
Daniel
Gold Member
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I think that you need to decide what niche that you are trying to serve with the Native. I view the Native as a broad-based appeal knife for everyday carry. As such, I don't think that it would sell at a higher price point with new steel or handle composition. The general knife buying public is not going to appreciate the materials. Yes, I would consider a purchase, but even if every member purchased one, which wouldn't happen, it would be a 3,000 plus run. Yes, you could market it and get the dealers to support it, but that would be an additional investment. Maybe it is time to re-educate the public to newer materials.
What direction do you want to go with it?
Daniel
What direction do you want to go with it?
Daniel
- Joined
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I have to ask if the purpose of this adventure is to gain customers from non-traditional demographics -- like women? My wife gladly carries a pink Delica, a mini neck chain carried Police (fantastic gift for my wife -- she really loved that little knife!) and I'm getting her a pink Cricket. Fine, but left on her own, she probably wouldn't carry a knife, or just carry a Swiss Army type knife. Handle colors will sell more knives than the steel they are made from if women are the target group. A well made knife can have a lot in common with jewelry.
Interesting story -- a friend asked for advice about what knife to buy. As it would be his first quality knife, I knew he wanted to keep the price out of the "sticker shock" area. After a discussion the choices were either a LW Native or a Benchmade Ascent. We went to the local shop that carried a good selection of knives and handled the choices. The prices of the two knives were so close they were not a factor. I'm sorry to say this in this forum, but the Ascent won out. Why you ask? -- First, the "walk and talk was better on the BM. I know if we tried many of each knife we could have found a Native with better feel to it, but we didn't try to look for one. BM got the luck of the draw on this one. Blade and handle shape looked better to this buyer on the BM, but just slightly. He wasn't able to explain why he liked the appearance of the BM more than the Native, he just did. This surprised me -- I thought the design of the Native was more appealing to new knife buyers -- it looks less weapon-like, more tool-like. The steel was the major reason. ATS-34 seems to be known to people who are on the edge of being a knife collector. There have been many articles in magazines other than knife magazines about this steel and how great it is. He knew nothing about Gin-1, or G-2 or whatever it is being called today.
What worries me is when it comes time for him to resharpen this ATS-34 blade. It won't be easy for a beginner. Think about that Spyderco -- what chance will some poor newbie who isn't a knife collector and has spent hours sharpening very hard steel blades have trying to sharpen a blade made from CPM440V? I hope you are ready to answer the complaint and take the heat when you ask for the customer to pay the shipping to have his knife resharpened by Spyderco. Then again, my friend will ask ME to sharpen it for him. I'll do it once, but make him watch and hopefully learn. It only took me umpteen years to learn how to do it to my satisfaction. Get ready for some nasty contacts from the newbies, Spyderco!
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Interesting story -- a friend asked for advice about what knife to buy. As it would be his first quality knife, I knew he wanted to keep the price out of the "sticker shock" area. After a discussion the choices were either a LW Native or a Benchmade Ascent. We went to the local shop that carried a good selection of knives and handled the choices. The prices of the two knives were so close they were not a factor. I'm sorry to say this in this forum, but the Ascent won out. Why you ask? -- First, the "walk and talk was better on the BM. I know if we tried many of each knife we could have found a Native with better feel to it, but we didn't try to look for one. BM got the luck of the draw on this one. Blade and handle shape looked better to this buyer on the BM, but just slightly. He wasn't able to explain why he liked the appearance of the BM more than the Native, he just did. This surprised me -- I thought the design of the Native was more appealing to new knife buyers -- it looks less weapon-like, more tool-like. The steel was the major reason. ATS-34 seems to be known to people who are on the edge of being a knife collector. There have been many articles in magazines other than knife magazines about this steel and how great it is. He knew nothing about Gin-1, or G-2 or whatever it is being called today.
What worries me is when it comes time for him to resharpen this ATS-34 blade. It won't be easy for a beginner. Think about that Spyderco -- what chance will some poor newbie who isn't a knife collector and has spent hours sharpening very hard steel blades have trying to sharpen a blade made from CPM440V? I hope you are ready to answer the complaint and take the heat when you ask for the customer to pay the shipping to have his knife resharpened by Spyderco. Then again, my friend will ask ME to sharpen it for him. I'll do it once, but make him watch and hopefully learn. It only took me umpteen years to learn how to do it to my satisfaction. Get ready for some nasty contacts from the newbies, Spyderco!
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Sal Glesser
Moderator
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THANK YOU VERY MUCH!
Lot of great input. I'll let you know what we decide.
sal
Lot of great input. I'll let you know what we decide.
sal
OK, Here's the thing,
Making it in GIN-1 AND 440v would be redundant. This is what you should do. Make it with an AUS8 blade for the people who wouldn't appreciate the difference in price and in 440v for the people who would. This might even make 'normal' people realize there must be a huge difference in steel qualities.
I'm very new to knives, so I have a point of view closer to the normal consumer. My 2 Spydercos are and original Endura and a Walker Lightweigt. I couldn't make myself pay more than $70 for a knife, no matter how nice. Both of mine have AUS8 blades and I haven't been able to dull them yet.
As for the cosmetics. Is there any other way to change the blade color other than coating? Could it be dyed or something. Coatings are no good because they scratch off and look ****ty. You might get a lot of 'normal' people to buy them because they look cool, but not as many of us. As for the coloring, how about making the non-hinged side black 1/3 of the way down and the rest bright yellow? This way, it wouldn't stand out when it's clipped inside your pocket, but if you were to use it and drop it, it'd be easy to find. I think most people are damn sick of black and a bright yellow would be just the ticket. Maybe there'd be some way to have a black/yellow stripe pattern that would be particularly attractive?
One last thing. I'm getting confused as to which steels are better or how they're different than others. Could you help me in ranking these compared to each other in simple terms (harness, corrosion resistance, etc.)
-AUS8,AUS6,ATS-55,ATS-34,AUS10,GIN-1,440v,440c,440a,420J2?
If you get a chance to read this message, would you please email me? You've got so many responses already, I'm not holding my breath for a response to this one. Thanks.
Making it in GIN-1 AND 440v would be redundant. This is what you should do. Make it with an AUS8 blade for the people who wouldn't appreciate the difference in price and in 440v for the people who would. This might even make 'normal' people realize there must be a huge difference in steel qualities.
I'm very new to knives, so I have a point of view closer to the normal consumer. My 2 Spydercos are and original Endura and a Walker Lightweigt. I couldn't make myself pay more than $70 for a knife, no matter how nice. Both of mine have AUS8 blades and I haven't been able to dull them yet.
As for the cosmetics. Is there any other way to change the blade color other than coating? Could it be dyed or something. Coatings are no good because they scratch off and look ****ty. You might get a lot of 'normal' people to buy them because they look cool, but not as many of us. As for the coloring, how about making the non-hinged side black 1/3 of the way down and the rest bright yellow? This way, it wouldn't stand out when it's clipped inside your pocket, but if you were to use it and drop it, it'd be easy to find. I think most people are damn sick of black and a bright yellow would be just the ticket. Maybe there'd be some way to have a black/yellow stripe pattern that would be particularly attractive?
One last thing. I'm getting confused as to which steels are better or how they're different than others. Could you help me in ranking these compared to each other in simple terms (harness, corrosion resistance, etc.)
-AUS8,AUS6,ATS-55,ATS-34,AUS10,GIN-1,440v,440c,440a,420J2?
If you get a chance to read this message, would you please email me? You've got so many responses already, I'm not holding my breath for a response to this one. Thanks.
- Joined
- Oct 3, 1998
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- 3,264
I'll second Paul Davidson's motion on a flat-ground Native in 440V, a totally utilitian knife with a handle that locks into your hand and a blade/choil design positioned so that it can't close on your finger opposite the lock release.
Somebody mentioned relieving the handle scales to allow better access for big thumbs and long fingernails.
Maybe the Native could be a base for a knife to appeal to the Other Half of the Market.
Stiffness of lock releases has been mentioned elsewhere as an obstacle to people with smaller hands, and the Native is easier to release than a Delica or Endura.
Fear of cut fingers has been mentioned. If you squeeze the release on a smooth-operating Endura, with the edge down, gravity may make it bite your knuckle. With the Native, the dull choil will be what hits your knuckle. Say that in the advertising.
A plain-edge flat-ground blade would not look "menacing," an important factor for some customers, as well as airport security.
Maybe a grey FRN handle, like the special edition Matriarchs or maybe a little lighter-"silver", would have more general appeal than "Ninja-black" or "It's-a-girl-pink" in a lightweight knife.
For long fingernail friendliness, how about an ambidextrous (Spyder-Heresy!) thumbstud? That would make drop-handle opening difficult, but the clip is at the butt-end, which makes a thumb-push more natural.
Somebody with smaller hands than mine will have to tell me if the pivot to thumb hole radius on a Native works for them.
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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
Somebody mentioned relieving the handle scales to allow better access for big thumbs and long fingernails.
Maybe the Native could be a base for a knife to appeal to the Other Half of the Market.
Stiffness of lock releases has been mentioned elsewhere as an obstacle to people with smaller hands, and the Native is easier to release than a Delica or Endura.
Fear of cut fingers has been mentioned. If you squeeze the release on a smooth-operating Endura, with the edge down, gravity may make it bite your knuckle. With the Native, the dull choil will be what hits your knuckle. Say that in the advertising.
A plain-edge flat-ground blade would not look "menacing," an important factor for some customers, as well as airport security.
Maybe a grey FRN handle, like the special edition Matriarchs or maybe a little lighter-"silver", would have more general appeal than "Ninja-black" or "It's-a-girl-pink" in a lightweight knife.
For long fingernail friendliness, how about an ambidextrous (Spyder-Heresy!) thumbstud? That would make drop-handle opening difficult, but the clip is at the butt-end, which makes a thumb-push more natural.
Somebody with smaller hands than mine will have to tell me if the pivot to thumb hole radius on a Native works for them.
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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
i think that the two knife approach would work. make the handle maroon, dark blue of dark green and the steel 440V and call it the "Native Elite". tha color would get people to look at it and any knowledgeable person could tell them that it was worth the price increase. and if someone is just buying on price, they can still get a great knife. my non-knife nut friends like my native alot. they intitially thought the $35 i paid for mine was a little steep, but after weeks of use at work and it was still sharp, they were impressed. they think $50+ is too much, but they would get the current native if i hadn't gotten them G-10 and carbon fiber spydrco's for presents.
now i must digress a little. i think the native is one of the best designs EVER!!!! i may be in the minority (back me up if i'm not), but i would like to see a family of native designs. a G-10 or micarta model would be great, as well as a 4" model in G-10 or micarta. i wouldn't bother with a LW 4". i would also make the top swedge a little smaller. and definitely keep the current thumb notches. the square cutouts are THE BEST i have ever used. they actually keep your thumb from moving. and what ever you do with it, keep the clip side to side reversible. maybe you could even make a native neck knife. the current size would be pretty good, maybe a little smaller though. and a 4" fixed model could give the BM nimravus a run for its money, especially with 440V or BG-42 steel.
i was considering getting another native soon, but now i'll have to wait and see what you will do. thanks for a great product. with what you're considering, it'll only get better.
now i must digress a little. i think the native is one of the best designs EVER!!!! i may be in the minority (back me up if i'm not), but i would like to see a family of native designs. a G-10 or micarta model would be great, as well as a 4" model in G-10 or micarta. i wouldn't bother with a LW 4". i would also make the top swedge a little smaller. and definitely keep the current thumb notches. the square cutouts are THE BEST i have ever used. they actually keep your thumb from moving. and what ever you do with it, keep the clip side to side reversible. maybe you could even make a native neck knife. the current size would be pretty good, maybe a little smaller though. and a 4" fixed model could give the BM nimravus a run for its money, especially with 440V or BG-42 steel.
i was considering getting another native soon, but now i'll have to wait and see what you will do. thanks for a great product. with what you're considering, it'll only get better.
- Joined
- Nov 1, 1999
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Being the new guy here I'll keep it brief:
I would be inclined to drop the GIN1 in favor of the 440V; Forget the black blade; DEFINITELY DO add some handle colors; (This knife seems appeal to women- several female friends have expressed interest my BF Native and pink Delica.) keep the reversible clip; The $7 - $10 increase is negligible.
While we're at it Sal, what about the Delica/Endura in Rescue orange? The pink Delica is cool! (I know: SKU nighmare!)
I would be inclined to drop the GIN1 in favor of the 440V; Forget the black blade; DEFINITELY DO add some handle colors; (This knife seems appeal to women- several female friends have expressed interest my BF Native and pink Delica.) keep the reversible clip; The $7 - $10 increase is negligible.
While we're at it Sal, what about the Delica/Endura in Rescue orange? The pink Delica is cool! (I know: SKU nighmare!)
- Joined
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Hi Sal
I must say that in this day and age I think almost everyone is in the know. Most if not all would buy a knife with higher grade steel. And if it cost a little more then they will still buy it. Look at all the customs coming out. People don't mind using a $400 knife on a daily basis. At least I don't. I think it would be great.
Liong
I must say that in this day and age I think almost everyone is in the know. Most if not all would buy a knife with higher grade steel. And if it cost a little more then they will still buy it. Look at all the customs coming out. People don't mind using a $400 knife on a daily basis. At least I don't. I think it would be great.
Liong
- Joined
- Oct 3, 1998
- Messages
- 3,264
People don't mind paying for good steel?
There's people and there's people.
The Lightweight Native was originally listed as a low-end model in 440A. It eventually came out in Gin-1, and now we're discussing upgrading it to 440V. I meet people who think nothing of carring a $300 Sebenza or a Microtech auto or a custom, and I meet people who can't imagine paying $50, more or less, for an Endura!
A couple of years ago I spent some time at a big fishing stuff show in Long Beach, CA. Several of us were there with some hand-made knives, for the California Knifemakers' Association. There was one other booth selling knives - an outfit with knock-offs of just about good manufacturer who's been knocked off. These were the Taiwanese knock-offs, so the prices were mostly in the $15-$25 range. As I was looking down my nose at the knives there, I heard a guy near me in the crowd say, "Boy, these knives are expensive!"
Sigh.
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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
There's people and there's people.
The Lightweight Native was originally listed as a low-end model in 440A. It eventually came out in Gin-1, and now we're discussing upgrading it to 440V. I meet people who think nothing of carring a $300 Sebenza or a Microtech auto or a custom, and I meet people who can't imagine paying $50, more or less, for an Endura!
A couple of years ago I spent some time at a big fishing stuff show in Long Beach, CA. Several of us were there with some hand-made knives, for the California Knifemakers' Association. There was one other booth selling knives - an outfit with knock-offs of just about good manufacturer who's been knocked off. These were the Taiwanese knock-offs, so the prices were mostly in the $15-$25 range. As I was looking down my nose at the knives there, I heard a guy near me in the crowd say, "Boy, these knives are expensive!"
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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001