Need help with picking a scope....

[bm11]

Peter,

I would extend the offer to you if it were not for ITAR restrictions. I wouldn't be comfortable exporting. Ianyou have an exporter I could send it to, then maybe we could talk.

And there are plenty of good MK4's around. Its just that I have read too much about the failure rate. If you have a good one, then rock it!

I still wouldn't want a 16x fixed on an AR though.

 

[PeterPHWS]

Let Josh ( Hindsight ) have first crack ... export permit wise for ITAR I do know a load of exporters who could deal with it ... there is a guy in our team who has a business doing this and deals regularly with March Scopes which is another of his businesses ... then there is Kelbly's who I know and Bartlein and any number of custom rifle makers ... Dave Tooley sends Bartlein barrels over here all the time for Accuracy International ... he chambers their .338 barrels ... so ITAR is'nt a problem ... but like I said I am sure Josh would love the chance for a scope like that at that sort of money ... but if not send me a PM ...

 

[Trijicog]

Josh, at 300 yards you need some good magnification.
I would not go less than 18 power
Then the budget comes in to play
Look at the Nikon Monarch line
Then Leupold and Zeiss
And if you want everyone at the shop to be jealous, go NightForce, but be warned, if you go to NightForce, you will never own anything else.
I have Leupolds 6.5 x 20 Long Range (LR) on a Cooper .223 and also on a Remington VLSS in .204 Ruger very nice scopes.
If you want pics, let me know.
--Bill

300 yds I use no more than 8x..Guess it depends on the quality of the glass though.

It all comes down to how much you want to spend.

S&B puts NF to shame

 

[bm11]

Dave Tooley sends Bartlein barrels over here all the time for Accuracy International ... he chambers their .338 barrels ...

Small world! Dave chambered and finished the barrel that can with my second Accuracy International rifle (Bartlein blank, barrel came on my AX) and he also cut down the barrel that came on my first Accuracy International (cut a 26" UK Border barrel down to 18.5" and rethreaded it for my suppressor.)

The ITAR restrictions I am familiar with because I sold a Hensoldt to a guy in Australia. I had to ship to an exporter in Texas to keep it legal. I also had guys overseas trying to buy an ACOG from me and I wasn't able to sell it to them because of ITAR.

But if you have an exporter, I'd be more than glad to send it to them. Josh contacted me but I haven't heard from him again.

 

[bm11]

300 yds I use no more than 8x..Guess it depends on the quality of the glass though.

It all comes down to how much you want to spend.

S&B puts NF to shame

Nice Surgeon and AW's, Trijicog!

I also tend to shoot on low mag, unless my target is really small. Even then, I shoot suppressed 99% of the time and often have to operate at lower magnification just to be able to shoot through the mirage.

 

[roenman]

300 yds I use no more than 8x..Guess it depends on the quality of the glass though.

It all comes down to how much you want to spend.

S&B puts NF to shame

I was specifcally looking at Josh's request as far as caliber, AR platform, distance, and most important, the size of target.
I never said you have to shoot through the high power, but it sure is nice to be able to turn it up and find your "small" target.
Josh is not talking about a deer or man size target or a 600 to 1000 yard shot. I think everyone forgot about his "needs"
As far as the S&B vs Nightforce.......with the Nightforce being made in the US, their phenominal product support and warranty policies. I will stand on NF being choice.
Lol, if it was good enough for Rob Furlong..........enough said.

 

[PeterPHWS]

Rob actually took the shot with the Leupold Mk IV 16 X 40 ... they were the issued scope for the Canadians back then and he confirmed he took the shot on 16x. His shot along with his buddy's shot the day before which also broke Carlos Hathcock's record were both done on Mk IV's ... this is what I meant by the scope being something of a "legend" amongst proffessional users. To see a human target at 2400 metres on 16x means the glass on the 40mm objective is pretty good and the depth of the reticle is sufficently "fine" to not obscure the target ... the 140 MOA of elevation made the shot possible.

A 5.5-22 x 56 N/F has only 100 MOA internal elevation ... not enough to do the job if using the cross hairs ... the same with the S&B 5-25 x 56 PMII ... Cpl Harrison from our forces who broke Rob's record with an AW .338 and PMII had to back off the magnification and use the whole of the reticle right to the base of his field of view to get a POA for his shot ... in part that is why N/F and S&B have introduced new reticles with extended hash marks right to the base of the field of view of their scopes ... because the rifles are eclipsing the ability of the scopes to take an ELR shot ... as the scopes don't have sufficient internal elevation ... except the Mk IV 16x ... which is why it is still highly regarded for those who need this capability ... as it has 30 MOA on it's next nearest competitor ... plus it has the depth of the reticle mil dots to work with which Rob needed to use for that shot and that is why it is'nt "crap" ... ( only joking bm ) ...

I also agree with roenman that 16x-18x is what you would want for a 1 MOA shot at 300 yards ... 8x has you struggling for a "humane" POA on a Woodchuck at that distance ...

 

[Izhmash]

How about a Super Sniper fixed power? They make "decent" starters for folks just getting into the long range game....and best of all, retain their value for when you decide you'd like to upgrade. They would easily fit your budget...and if you were hard up on a 16x, they've got those as well. They are heavy though...could use them to baton with your Busse

 

[bm11]

How about a Super Sniper fixed power? They make "decent" starters for folks just getting into the long range game....and best of all, retain their value for when you decide you'd like to upgrade. They would easily fit your budget...and if you were hard up on a 16x, they've got those as well. They are heavy though...could use them to baton with your Busse

Great scopes for the money. They are reliable, rugged, and track accurately. Word to the wise- if we are talking about the base fixed power scopes, go with the 10x. At 16x, the glass imperfections start to come out.

 

[Hindsight]

Again guys, I want to thank you for all of your information. I feel like a kid in a candy store. I just don't know which one to pick. I am going to take my time on this one and really do my homework. The fixed power does intrigue me. I have never actually owned or used a fixed power scope.
Here is another question for you guys. What calibers are you using for shots out to 600 yrds? I have also been looking at a few .308.

 

[bm11]

Long range I shoot .308, .243, and .338, all out to 1130 yards or so. I might be able to stretch out a bit further where I shoot, not sure.

 

[tomthebaker]

I only have 300 yards at my local range, but today, first time out with my new scope, 5-20x50 Vortex Razor HD, and this was the daily winner:
Shot # 5 was of the map (far right) for some reason, but this was pretty awesome for me. First 2 shots in the red, then I got excited.
Another, 5-shot group came in at 2.0 inches.

Patriot Ordnance Factory .308, 16.5 in barrel.

 

[Hindsight]

Long range I shoot .308, .243, and .338, all out to 1130 yards or so. I might be able to stretch out a bit further where I shoot, not sure.

1130 yards :thumbup: that is amazing. I hope to be able to do that someday.I have heard great things about the ballistics of the .243. Apparently what I am reading is correct.

I only have 300 yards at my local range, but today, first time out with my new scope, 5-20x50 Vortex Razor HD, and this was the daily winner:
Shot # 5 was of the map (far right) for some reason, but this was pretty awesome for me. First 2 shots in the red, then I got excited.
Another, 5-shot group came in at 2.0 inches.

Patriot Ordnance Factory .308, 16.5 in barrel.

Tom that is a great group. My best group out to 300 yards has been 2.75 inches. I would get a little excited too, if my first two shots were in the red.

 

[PeterPHWS]

There are a lot of calibres which are capable out to 600 yards ... the easiest or simplest way to consider calibre choice is perhaps to understand the background to your AR 15 Upper calibre ... the Remington 6.8 SPC. This was put together by guys in your S/F's and in collaboration with other NATO S/F's for greater accuracy and mussle energy than they were getting from the 5.56mm round. The most accurate bullets have the highest ballistic co-efficient for long range shooting ... and from testing it was discovered that 6.5 mm bullets were the most accurate out to 300m and 7mm bullets retained the most energy ... so they went with a half way decision and developed the 6.8mm SPC round.

The benefit of 6.5mm to 7mm bullets for long range shooting holds up in target shooting too. In F Class for a long time the 6.5 x 284 round was used almost exclusively in F Open Class. Then in 2006 the 7mm started to be used. Examples of this calibre are a straight .284 ( 7mm ) and variations on it such as the .284 Shehane and the 7mm SAUM and the 7mm WSM and then variations on the .300 or 270 WSM necked down or up to 7mm and wildcat rounds like the 7mm Boo Boo ( developed by Dave Tooley ) which is about the fastest 7mm that has been used effectively. Your F Open Nationals have been won these past two years by a guy shooting a .284 (7mm).

So at 600 yards where you can use whatever bullet you want ... many go with either a 6.5mm or 7mm calibre.

When I say "use whatever bullet you want" I mean that within F Class there is another division called F T/R or F Target Rifle which allows military calibres of .308 ( 7.62mm ) and .223 ( 5.56mm ). Aside from these calibres in F Open you can use any calibre up to 8mm ( .325 ). The F/TR division shoot with the F Open from 600 yards all the way back to 1200 yards so the .308 in the right length of barrel ( 30 inches is the norm ) is a very capable calibre. Out to 1000 yards the .308's can keep pace score wise with the Open calibres if the conditions are calm/friendly. Beyond that and the faster and hgher B.C. Open calibres show their advantage.

So a .308 is an ideal calibre for 600 yards ... especially if you want a general purpose tactical/target rifle.

One calibre though that probably dominates as a better alternative for tactical work/mid distance shooting ... mainly because it can feed high B.C. 6.5mm bullets well in large capacity .308 magazines ( such as AI or AR180 ) is the 6.5mm x 47 Lapua. At the World Sniper Championships this calibre has done very well and ballistically gives an edge on the .308 ... but size wise it still uses a .308 bolt face and .308 magazines.

The .243 is another good choice for mid range accuracy as there are a number of good 6mm bullets out there. Dave Tubbs probably has the best for long range shooting with his 115g DTAC. The 2.43 is essentially a .308 necked down to .243 so it too can use the same bolt and magazines. The thing to note with a .243is that you need a faster twist than most standard factory hunting barrels to stabalise the heavier long range bullets.

The .308 works best in the range of 155g to 185g bullets which is a factory standard twist.

You cannot really go wrong with a .308 when you allow for shooting good cheap easily found factory ammo. The more exotic calibres tend to be the domain of "re-loaders". Re-loading is a skill that you need to develop if the "bug bites" and you want to shoot regularly and cheaply.

Nice 0.5 MOA group there Tom :thumbup:

 

[Izhmash]

Surprised nobody has recommended the .260 Rem yet. It has gained notable steam in recent years.

Personally, if you are just starting out....I would get a Rem 700 action in .308. Ammo is less expensive (I highly recommend Southwest Ammunition), and more readily available. Top it with a 10X Super Sniper and get started training yourself. You will outgrow parts of it, and may want to get it bedded, then change the stock, then update the trigger, then get it blueprinted / trued, then rebarreled, and update the scope to something nicer....but those things can all come in time. The most important part is to get out and shoot. Too many people spend more money on their gear than they do on ammo so they can practice with it.

OR, check on the HIDE for a nice used GAP (or other well known smith assembled rifle).

 

[Hindsight]

HOLY COW

The amount of info is incredible. I love this. Now I just wish my upper would get here so I could start shooting. If someone could give me a list of the main factors that I will have to work on such as, windage, humidity, etc..... that would be awesome. Then I could focus on doing research on calculating and measuring such factors.

 

[bm11]

If you want to learn, join up the training over at the 'hide. Lot of good info there.

If you can change the specs on your upper, go with the 6.5 Grendel. The 6.8 SPC was cool in concept but never really took off. The bullet selection in 6.8 is very limited and there aren't any offerings with really good ballistic coefficients. On the other hand, the 6.5 Grendel uses the same bullets as any other 6.5- 6.5x47 Lapua, .260 Rem, 6.5 Creedmore, 6.5x284... you get the idea. If you can swap your order, you will be MUCH better off in the LR game.

 

[Hindsight]

If you want to learn, join up the training over at the 'hide. Lot of good info there.

If you can change the specs on your upper, go with the 6.5 Grendel. The 6.8 SPC was cool in concept but never really took off. The bullet selection in 6.8 is very limited and there aren't any offerings with really good ballistic coefficients. On the other hand, the 6.5 Grendel uses the same bullets as any other 6.5- 6.5x47 Lapua, .260 Rem, 6.5 Creedmore, 6.5x284... you get the idea. If you can swap your order, you will be MUCH better off in the LR game.

Very good suggestion. i will look into that. I talked to the guy making the upper and he said that he won't get to the barrel untill the end of the month, so I got some time to research.

 

[roenman]

Josh, alot of folks won't agree with this but to me one of the most important thing is breaking in that new barrel.
A nice day at the range with some good factory ammo, take your time, 1 shot, clean barrel. Do that 7 or 8 times. Copper wash. Let sit for the copper solvent to work. reclean barrel.
Then 2 shots, clean. Do that 5 times and copper wash again.
You should be good to go.
Get a good cleaning rod, brush, jag. I always use a bore guide (Possum Hollow makes to order)
I will always recommend Shooter's Choice Products, made right here in Ohio.

 

[bm11]

Josh, alot of folks won't agree with this but to me one of the most important thing is breaking in that new barrel.
A nice day at the range with some good factory ammo, take your time, 1 shot, clean barrel. Do that 7 or 8 times. Copper wash. Let sit for the copper solvent to work. reclean barrel.
Then 2 shots, clean. Do that 5 times and copper wash again.
You should be good to go.
Get a good cleaning rod, brush, jag. I always use a bore guide (Possum Hollow makes to order)
I will always recommend Shooter's Choice Products, made right here in Ohio.

Agree to disagree! My GA Precision Bartlein Tubb contour 7.7 twist .243 (chambered for DTACs) barrel ran me $900 including fluting, threading, Cerakoating, and a thread protector, and I just went to the range with a load work up and didn't clean it until I got home, 50 rounds later. After that, I clean it every couple hundred rounds or so.

I am in the category of shooters who believe that the break in period is a myth. But everyone is entitled to their own superstitions!