Need help with picking a scope....

bm11 said:
Agree to disagree! My GA Precision Bartlein Tubb contour 7.7 twist .243 (chambered for DTACs) barrel ran me $900 including fluting, threading, Cerakoating, and a thread protector, and I just went to the range with a load work up and didn't clean it until I got home, 50 rounds later. After that, I clean it every couple hundred rounds or so.

I am in the category of shooters who believe that the break in period is a myth. But everyone is entitled to their own superstitions!
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This is what I meant about folks disagreeing, but ever since going through the H-S Precision factory in S Dakota, and having numerous conversations with the folks at Cooper.
both these Custom shops manufacture barrels and recommend break in, so thats what I'll do.
 
Here is a list of what I do when I go to the range, particularly a new range, and what to "focus" upon when shooting at distance ...

The first thing I want to do is to get a good idea of what the "wind" is doing ... once you have your marksmanship principal skills sorted ... the main hurdle to overcome for shooting and consistantly hitting where you want to at distance ... is judging the "wind" ...

So if shooting for practise or in a comp aways try to get to the range 15 mins or more early so when you get out of the car you have enough time to check out the flags and see what is happening.

Usually at most ranges on a practise day ... if they have to put out their own flags ... you never see "that many" ... but go to the same range on a "comp" day and a full quota of flags should be set out. So if possible and you want to get a good "feel" for a range try and go for the first time on a day they are doing a comp so you can see as many flags as possible. The flags tell you what the wind is doing.

When looking at the flags you want to see the direction and strength of the wind. The "wind book" I recommended earlier has good diagrams to help here. You also want to check for consistancy. So as you look down the range are all the flags the same height and same direction or are some gusting more than others. Usually flag poles near a tree line can be much lower if sheltered ... you want at least 10 minutes watching the flags to see how they move. Wind tends to come in "cycles" ... we have all seen the satallite pic's showing a circular swirl of clouds from space ... well the weather comes like that ... in repeat circular patterns. 10 mins won't give you sufficient time to see a whole cycle but it will give you an indication of how much the flags are moving for the time you are likely to take to shoot your 2 + 15 or whatever. What you need to do is "bracket" the wind for the high's and low's on the flags ... take a mental picture of the strongest gust and the lightest and what is the most consistant middle ground position.

You can do all this without optics ... if the wind is low and the flags are hanging and it is hot ... then you know you are only going to get your appraisal of the range by using "optics" to check out the mirage ... a good spotting scope helps here ... but if you are just beginning then get your kit out and your rifle set up and use the scope. You want to be checking the mirage mainly at a third of the total distance to the target ... so 300 yards is at 100 yards ... 600 yards at 200 yards ... the wind which affects the flight of a bullet the most is at the beginning of it's path. Get the focus/paralax wheel on the scope and turn it till it goes out of focus ... using the highest magnification you can and look at something straight such as the top of the butts or the top of the a grass shooting point or even a plank on the ground ... anything that can give you a contrast to view the waves of mirage with and then see how they are moving ... do this at 2/3rds and then at the target ... same thing to look for ... peaks and troughs and "middle ground" ...

If shooting F Class you get a 3 min set up period and then usually 20 mins for 2 sighters and 15 to count. The first shoot of the day can have unlimited sighters before you tell the scorer ( this is in a comp ) that you are shooting for record. Use the sighters to bracket the condition shooting on a strong wind and a lull ... that gives you the likely range of your shots ... ( i.e. 1 MOA to 4 MOA ) and then on the middle condition which is the stable one ( say 2 MOA ) . Once you have this "data" go for your record trying to keep your shots so they are taken on the middle condition or if that is'nt possible use the data to dial in the correct wind call if the wind has picked up or let off ...

ALWAYS check the flags before you shoot ... don't bury your head in the scope ... if you look at Tom's target pic you can see he had 4 shoots nice and tight together showing good POM ( principles of marksmanship ) skills. One has gone out to the right ... the elevation though is perfect so he did'nt pull the shot ... clearly what happened is that there was a "pick up" of the wind moving left to right and this took the shot out ... easily done to stay focused in the scope and it is a bad habit ... always remember to check the flags before each shot is taken ...

Do this and basically you have it ... other tips are to be aware that wet flags from over night "dew" are heavy and may not show the true strength of the wind ... and that different ranges often have different weights of flags which can give a different value assessment for the wind. If you have a wind meter then take a reading near the flag to check what speed the wind is and how this shows on the flag.

After that it is all about knowing your ammo and velocity and how much the round moves in a wind change at a given distance. A ballistic software programme will be able to give you a drop chart and windage chart for the given bullet you are using and learn it.

There are many other things which impact on shooting at very extreme ELR but at 300 to 600 and out to 1000 the main thing is the wind. At 1000 yards you need to compensate for "spin drift" ... most rifles use a right hand twist so the bullet when it spins over such a distance will "yaw" to the right ... usually this is corrected by a 1 MOA left setting on the scope.

I have seen International shooters fail to remember this and when the wind has totally dropped off ... usually before it changes direction ... they have put zero wind on the scope and then shot and gone out for a 9 to the right ...

Density altitude and coriolis etc ... those are relevant for long shots at unknown distances and especially if you have not had the chance to re-zero the rifle from being deployed and there is a significant altitude change so the air is a lot thinner ... but that sort of thing is a few years down the road perhaps once the "core" skills are mastered. Many know the names of these terms but few know how to apply them and few ever do ... most just take the data from a kestrel and dial it into a PDA programme and shoot on the setting it recommends... but ideally you need the time and teaching to properly understand each term and how it applies ... and even when you learn all that ... it is very hard to find the range facilities that enable you to take shots where you can apply the knowledge. Shooting out to a mile and beyond is where this comes into play. For range shooting and shooting out to 1000 yards the basic stuff of elevation and wind compensation is all you need.
 
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Thanks for the info Peter, I would love to meet you and bm11 (or anyone else that has done a lot of long range stuff) someday so I could pick your brains. :D
I know i have a lot to learn and I can't wait to get started. i have a feeling this is going to be a GREAT summer.
 
Great thread. Man, I'd love to go shooting with you guys. Thanks for sharing.
 
One day it would be good to meet up and do some long range shooting ... after 30 years of trigger pulling I now enjoy coaching as much as shooting ... maybe more so. I sometimes think about writing a book on all this ... Plaster's book would take some beating ... but you never know ... there is'nt much out there that combines his skills and competition skills ...

The 6.5 Grendel is a good call if you can change the barrel order ... and on the point of "shooting in a barrel" this IMO depends on how the barrel is made ... there are 3 ways of making a barrel ... cut rifling, button pulled and hammer forged ... cut rifling is regarded as the best and most precise ... with CAD-CAM and the precision using computers this can give a cut rifle barrel the ability to be done with a precise "gain twist" ... the idea being that the bullet spins more slowly in the begginning and speeds up as it leaves the barrel ... with heavy bullets this helps eliminate "bullet torque" which you notice pulls the rifle down and to the right on a right hand twist and on multiple shots alters the balance level of a bi-pod or if using a bench rest will tamp down the sand on the right side giving the rifle in both cases a "cant" to the right which will cause your shots to be pulled to the right if not corrected ... this is why scopes are often fitted with a spirit level to correct for this.

I used a Bartlein gain twist last year in 7mm and it was a great barrel ... Bartlein, Kreiger, Border, Brux they all use cut rifling ... Bartlein are probably regarded as the top of the line barrels at the moment ... the thing is though when getting a cut rifle barrel or a button pulled barrel ( Broughton, Lilja, True Flight ) those custom makers will "lap" their barrels to a high polished finish every time and the "lapping" smooth's out any "burrs" from the rifling process ... especially if done to a custom high standard ... and this can eliminate the need to "shoot in" a barrel. I say "can" because you never know if a barrel has a sharp burr which if it cuts into the jacket of the bullet will create a "yaw" in the bullets flight and result in an inaccurate shot. This does usually correct itself after time ... but can deliver a few "fliers" when the barrel is new. "Shooting in" a barrel helps eliminate the chance of this .... it effectively has you doing a similar job of "lapping" the barrel by cleaning regularly at the start ...

A hammer forged barrel is the most common ... used on nearly all factory barrels ( Remington, Sako, Tikka, Ruger ) and with these barrels there is likely to be less "lapping" done and they are not polished to as high a standard ... "shooting in" a barrel is potentially a safer route with these barrels if you want to make sure that any "burrs" are removed. A barrel is at it's most accurate though when new ... so doing a bit of "shooting in" if say you are a benchrest shooter in factory sporter and are going for group size would make a lot of sense ... if you are a hunter or someone likely to be shooting freehand and the position you are shooting from limits the ability to shoot "bug eye" groups ... then there is less to worry about ...

I shoot and clean all my barrels a little when brand new just in case ... but if after five rounds of clean and shoot and the rifle is "bug eye" grouping I stop ... all my barrels though are custom made ... button pull can be just as good as cut rifling in a standard twist so don't worry in that respect if you use a barrel maker who uses that method ... it is the steel they are made from and the skill they have in doing their job which matters the most ... I like barrel makers who use "Crucible" steel ... if you compromise on the steel you can lose your repuation if the barrels then don't last and shoot badly...

I hope it all comes good for you this Summer :thumbup:
 
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I wish I knew more about scopes to be able to help you out Josh, good thing this forum is helpful!
 
Alright guys, here is the next question i have. What barrel length should I go for? I was thinking of a 22" barrel. Should I go longer?
 
It all depends on your mission. My bolt is an 18" barrel...which I love. It's mission is primarily hunting, with paper punching as backup out to 750 yds. So I wanted accuracy, but weighed mobility just as important....so I have sacrificed a bit of velocity (and effectively, energy) for extended long range shooting.

Just remember....barrel length will affect the velocity of the bullet (thereby affecting the trajectory), but it will not affect the theoretical accuracy of the barrel. If you are seriously interested in 1k and greater, you may want to consider what loads you will be shooting and determine how much velocity you will need to keep the bullet supersonic at the intended range. I haven't kept up with this whole thread, but I recall this being an AR15 I thought....and I don't recall when the 5.56 goes subsonic.
 
I am a HUGE fan of short barrels. If you run the numbers on paper, you can generally figure out what the best tradeoff is in terms of length vs performance. I generally run an 18.5 inch barrel on my .308, and still beat my buddies 26" in drop and drift, because of bullet selection. I run a 155 Scenar at 2775, he runs a 175 SMK at 2700. Both have the same BC, the only difference is the energy. And steel doesn't much care about an extra 100 ft/lbs.
 
bm11 said:
I am a HUGE fan of short barrels. If you run the numbers on paper, you can generally figure out what the best tradeoff is in terms of length vs performance. I generally run an 18.5 inch barrel on my .308, and still beat my buddies 26" in drop and drift, because of bullet selection. I run a 155 Scenar at 2775, he runs a 175 SMK at 2700. Both have the same BC, the only difference is the energy. And steel doesn't much care about an extra 100 ft/lbs.
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Agreed! Although, pigs care :D

Another thing to consider about length is if you EVER want to venture into Class III accessories. Short Barrels have a great advantage here as well.
 
Yep, part of the reason I am a huge fan. I also have a 28" .243 barrel for my AI, I wanted to push DTACs as fast as possible. But I barely ever use it, as the barrel length with an extra 7.5 inches of suppressor on it make it a cumbersome beast that really can only be shot prone.

Here it is with an 18.5 inch, plus the can (with a mirage cover over it.)
2011-11-03133706.jpg
 
Barrel length is "user specific" ... particularly if as I understand it ... you are refering to a .308 barrel for your intended bolt gun ... as opposed to your AR15 upper ? Most AR15 barrels are in the 16 inch to 18 inch range and as you mention 22 inches I am pretty sure you are thinking of a .308 ... so I will go with that.

This is probably the hardest thing to "get right" ... if you were wanting to go out to 1000 yards the extra bit of velocity you gain from barrel length is always desired ... that is why the F/TR guys go for a 30 inch barrel ... but that is going to be a bit impractical if you want a bolt gun for some tactical/sniper/mid-range target work. I say this because if you have to do multi positional shooting such as sitting or kneeling ( common in sniper comps ) the forward weight of the barrel will have you seriously struggling for a steady hold. Even with side mounted sling swivels on the stock ... which help a lot more with stability when used with sitting or kneeling than the traditional bottom mounted sling position ... a long heavy barrel is'nt advisable.

If going from the front of the action lug a 22 inch barrel seems to me to be ideal for all round ability. GA Precision are probably one of the best names in tactical .308's and that is what they go for with a 3/8th MOA guarantee. Note if ordering a custom barrel you may want to stipulate a longer barrel to allow for the chambering tenon ( 23 inches ) or make it clear that the 22 inches is required in front of the action. Some advocate an 18 inch barrel but you can always take off barrel length and never put it back on. Why 18 inches is thought highly of I am not sure. I could always get a steady hold from a 22 inch barrel and the extra inches and velocity are always useful when shooting further out.

Some like an 18 inch barrel because they want to fit a suppressoror/silencer and the OAL when fitted is their concern. Use of a silencer creates heat in it and this in turn creates it's own mirage or vapour distortion. In F Class they are not allowed and nor are mussle breaks. If you need to fit a mirage band ... use the methods adopted in F Class and go for a venetion blind cut to fit and attached through velcro patches ... AI mussle breaks which can help with a webbing mirage band always end up being removed for F Class comps and yet this is exactly where you can benefit from a mirage reduction from heat created in the barrel.

So in short ... I think 22 inches is about ideal for an all round use. You may be at a disadvantage for F/TR comps at 1000 yards but if that disciple becomes a favorite you could always look to a specific rifle for this at the time. By then you are likely to want a single shot action for greater rigidity anyway ... and will always have plenty of use for your magazine fed tactical rifle which is certainly the best "first rifle" to go for.
 
I think the point comes back to "intended purpose" of the tool. As Peter mentioned, if you want to shoot F-Class...a shorter barrel may not be for you. Then again, you'd also want a higher power scope with a larger objective, and a stock that would likely be burdensome to carry in the field. Mobility and F-Class are two very different beasts.

My passion is being in the woods, not the range. So my needs are different than F-Class. Can I shoot at 1k...yes. Do I get giddy sitting at a range hitting steel at 1k...a little, but it doesn't compare for me to even shooting back at 300 yds in the field on an animal. But...that's just me, and everyone is different.

I akin this to knives, and pistols....you have to fit your personal interests. There is so much information out there, that people often get led astray from their personal passion / interests. My first .308 bolt was one of the original FN SPR's....I think the barrel was a 24" if I recall correctly. Great rifle, but I couldn't find it in my heart to have that fantastic barrel cut down. So, I bought a PBR with a 20" barrel. After fielding this a few times, I realized that I just needed a rifle built to my spec...because by the time I was going to cut the barrel, thread it, get a Manners stock, add new bottom metal, upgrade the trigger....the list just gets too long. Upgrading can be fruitful if you're not in a hurry, but it is difficult to mirror the tolerances of a custom action and the intricate detail imposed by a great smith. It's like knife-making....you want a BUSSE, or _____? There's not one knife that is ideal for every job either...although the tool can be implemented for many tasks, it is usually efficient at one or two.

I would recommend taking what you have, to the range. Isn't ADCO in Ohio? Or, MSTN? Maybe go touch base with those guys and schedule a "range day". Bring some extra ammo and I'd be willing to bet several folks would let you get behind their rigs and drive them...so that you can get a flavor of what everyone's talking about. There is no right answer, only what you feel fits you the best.
 
OK...I just checked. ADCO Firearms is in Sylvania, OH. That is 34 miles from Wausseon...according to Google.

Contact Steve @ ADCO. Tell him you work for Busse, and are looking to get into the game. He works on AR's, so I'm pretty sure you guys could work out a range day or something similar where you could get to look through a couple of different setups, hold them, shoot them, etc. It's worth a shot....
 
Izhmash said:
BM11...killer setup, man! Is that a TAB cover? I love me some TAB Gear! :D
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Yeah, Tony built that one custom for me. My suppressor only has 1/8" or so clearance in front of the handguard, so I couldn't go with a typical mirage cover. I actually have both kinds, the other one (a type 3 I believe) I use with my longer barrels.

I have a bunch of TAB gear. Tony is good people, and he shoots an AX, so that makes him even better, haha.
 
Im running a IOR Valada 6X Tactical on my Noveske 16.5 6.8. 300 Yards would never require much.ove 8x unless you are shooting quarters at that distance My Barrett has a Swarvoski setup from Barrett which is only 10x and it is a 1000 yd reticle....IOR makes a replacement reticle for the 6.8 Cartridge. I have been popping Crows at 275-350 this fall. Have to aim a quarter mil above norm once the scope is doped. Try staying with good clear glass and simpe mildot scopes. If you.go US made Luepold and Burris make fine glass. The 3.5X10 mildot Mk3 are a good deal and Luepold warranties the damm things without receipts lookkng like they have been drug behind a truck. I just sent a 3x9 VARI X 3 back that I told them it was bought defective and to bill me.Got it back like new and free :-)
 
I have never actually been to ADCO but have heard a lot of great things. This will def be a stop in the near future.
The 22" barrel would actually be put on my AR. The .308 I am looking at also has a 22" barrel.
They will both most likely be used for hunting.
 
Hindsight said:
The 22" barrel would actually be put on my AR.
They will both most likely be used for hunting.
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Given these two pieces of information: AR + Hunting. I would probably go with a SPR'ish clone. 18" stainless barrel, free floated, PRI (or rail system if you prefer) handguard, and scope of your choice in a Larue mount. Also...if you get a chance, try out a Gieselle SSA trigger...they are fantastic.
 
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