NEW 2009 RELEASE Cripple Creek by GEC (Potential Controversy)

They are counterfeits. The whole Cripple Creek deal with Great Eastern is a theft of the lowest order. Bob Cargill was never even informed about this rip off and only found out about it in the last month of so. No compensation at all. Not even a thank you or a heads up. This is pretty low rent in my book. I bought one GEC knife and it will be the last. Even if what GEC pulled was in some form legal, it still isn't right. They'll not get another nickel from me. :mad:
 
mckgreg said:
They are counterfeits. The whole Cripple Creek deal with Great Eastern is a theft of the lowest order. Bob Cargill was never even informed about this rip off and only found out about it in the last month of so. No compensation at all. Not even a thank you or a heads up. This is pretty low rent in my book. I bought one GEC knife and it will be the last. Even if what GEC pulled was in some form legal, it still isn't right. They'll not get another nickel from me. :mad:
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I agree its awful. However, if the knives are to be made by both GEC and Queen, then someone else other than those two companies must be behind the revived use of Bob's trademarks.
 
mckgreg said:
They are counterfeits. The whole Cripple Creek deal with Great Eastern is a theft of the lowest order. Bob Cargill was never even informed about this rip off and only found out about it in the last month of so. No compensation at all. Not even a thank you or a heads up. This is pretty low rent in my book. I bought one GEC knife and it will be the last. Even if what GEC pulled was in some form legal, it still isn't right. They'll not get another nickel from me. :mad:
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If there is nothing in this for Bob, then I'm not interested in what they are peddling. :thumbdn:
 
I can't understand why a new company like GEC would stoop this low. I can only imagine them using the same patterns they have been using and just dressing them up a bit with hopes of grabbing attention to themselves and making a buck. Cargill's creation and dream, followed by dibilitating hard work, used unscrupously and ending up as window dressing for GECs knives is a little too hard to take. Why don't they just come up with some new patterns that they might even be able to put their own logo on ? Stealing must be so much easier.
Greg
 
Due to the course that this (legitimate) discussion is taking we're going to have to move it to the "Feedback" area. Perhaps someone from GEC will feel the need to provide some information from their point of view.
 
mckgreg said:
They are counterfeits. The whole Cripple Creek deal with Great Eastern is a theft of the lowest order. Bob Cargill was never even informed about this rip off and only found out about it in the last month of so. No compensation at all. Not even a thank you or a heads up. This is pretty low rent in my book. I bought one GEC knife and it will be the last. Even if what GEC pulled was in some form legal, it still isn't right. They'll not get another nickel from me. :mad:
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I visited Bob Cargill’s websites and read where he sold the company in the 90's, then regained it. He doesn't mention selling the trademarks, and unless he sold the rights to their use then he should be able to stop the production of these knives pretty quick, and sue for damages.
Did someone "steal" the rights from him? Why should the legal rights holder have to cut Bob in on the deal? Assuming they own them free and clear that is.
I’m just looking for more back story. I don't know anyone involved personally, and am not trying to defend or promote anyone, but you have publicly accused GEC of stealing from the guy, that's pretty heavy.
 
I expect it is in the same fashion as all the Colonel Coons floating around; wonder how much went to the Harris family?

Who owns the Cripple Creek trademark? If Bob still owns it, then it is a slam-dunk infringement case.

But, by you blaming GEC for accepting a contract to make a trademark a third party claims rights to concerns me that maybe the other facts are somewhat skewed...

Don't get me wrong. If the TM was used without permission, I hope every dime of sales go to the rightful owner. But doesn't make much sense that is the case and expect we don't know all the facts yet...

But one that I do know is the GEC makes Great Eastern, Northfield, and Tidioute trademark products for their distributors; all others are third party contracts and never sold thru their own channels. Will also lay 2:1 that Smokey is the producer for them and has every "legal" right to the trademark.

There have been too many cases in the cutlery industry of expired trademarks being snatched up and reproduced. Seems to me once you own a trademark, it is part of a family trust forever unless you decide to sell it.

But the great thing about forums are that the discussion is still around once all the facts are known, and you can go back and see just how accurate / far off base our conversation and speculation was...

Mike Latham
CollectorKnives.Net
 
FLymon said:
I visited Bob Cargill’s websites and read where he sold the company in the 90's, then regained it. He doesn't mention selling the trademarks, and unless he sold the rights to their use then he should be able to stop the production of these knives pretty quick, and sue for damages.
Did someone "steal" the rights from him? Why should the legal rights holder have to cut Bob in on the deal? Assuming they own them free and clear that is.
I’m just looking for more back story. I don't know anyone involved personally, and am not trying to defend or promote anyone, but you have publicly accused GEC of stealing from the guy, that's pretty heavy.
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No disrespect, but a lot of people think that is is so easy to just sue someone. It is very hard to protect anything these days unless you have very deep pockets. The people who do this sort of stuff know it all to well. Bob Cargill was literally ruined by a certain individual and his company. Bob basically lost everything that he had worked for all his life. That makes it very hard if not damn near impossible to recover from.
BB
 
I would think that Bob must still own the rights to the trademark since he's selling the three legged buffalo shield on his website. I don't think he could do that if he'd sold the rights to that trademark, could he?
 
Guys - before any further comments about GEC are made (Greg) let me assist you all by laying down some Business 101 411 :)

Companies like Queen, GEC and Canal Street Cutlery are some of the last 100% US Cutlery production companies - rare in today's market. Each have their own Brands (Queen, Schatt&Morgan, Great Eastern Cutlery, Tidioute, etc) that they produce and market.

As full line production companies any of these folks may take on Contracts to produce other single Model offerings for an existing Brand (such as a 2 Blade Muskrat GEC recently made for Bulldog) or even a single piece of a knife (such as Queen made jigged Bone Handles for Canal Street), this is done to fill production schedules, keep lines running or perhaps because the machinery owned by that company is the best there is for that purpose.

This Cripple Creek knife is an example of Great Eastern Cutlery making a Pattern on Contract for someone else...... Who then are they making it for? Well, let's take a look;

Let me be your Guide through a US Government website where anyone can Learn the Basic Facts, Research, File or Search for Trademark Ownership - here is the lead page http://www.uspto.gov/main/trademarks.htm

I will direct you deeper into this maze to the area where you can Search any Trademark Name that you wish - to learn who owns the Trademark, is it Live or Dead, when it was Applied for, when it was originally Released and then Reapplied for, etc. http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=tess&state=4010:1fus2f.1.1

Once there, choose the Free Form Search (Advanced Search) category - it is best to use BOOLEAN Language when searching for multiple Name Trademarks, i.e. [ Cripple AND Creek AND USA ] - this... dear Gentlemen is the Man or Organization that currently OWNS the Cripple Creek USA Trademark and is the entity who decided to approach several knife companies to resurrect the Cripple Creek name.

To further stimulate your synapses, you may enter any Cutlery Trademarked term or Name in to the Search box to learn the owership, I think some may be surprised in the results.
 
knifeswapper said:
There will be several patterns to come. Some by GEC, some by Queen; it will be obvious when you see them..

The one pictured is the same as the GEC Cuban except I hear the current planned production will all be 420HC regardless of maker.

Don't know for sure, but would place my money on Smokey Mountain and/or Blue Ridge holding the rights. Thus they will be readily available as the production ramps up.

Mike Latham
CollectorKnives.Net
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Mike,

Sounds like you may have the inside scoop here. Where are you getting your information from? I'd like to read about it from the source.

d.parker said:
...I thought they might revive Bob's Old patterns.....
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I seriously doubt it. This is clearly a potential money making venture aimed at the collector market. And nothing wrong with that as long as they have the legal rights to the Cripple Creek name. My guess is that they will just take they're existing patterns and utilize the Cripple Creek stamp like they have done here with this equal end cigar stockman pattern. From they're perspective it will be much more cost effective to use their existing set-up and parts and materials.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ><> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Does anyone know who it was that commissioned Queen to re-produce the Colonel Coon brands that were recently released?


Anthony
 
I guess part of this mystery is solved.

Word Mark CRIPPLE CREEK U.S.A.
Goods and Services IC 008. US 023 028 044. G & S: knives
Standard Characters Claimed
Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK
Serial Number 77493216
Filing Date June 6, 2008
Current Filing Basis 1B
Original Filing Basis 1B
Published for Opposition January 27, 2009
Owner (APPLICANT) Martin, Phillip S. DBA Blue Ridge Knives INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 166 Adwolfe Road Marion VIRGINIA 24354
Attorney of Record Susan B. Flohr
Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "U.S.A." APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE
 

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It doesn't appear that GEC is doing anything wrong.

I wonder if Bob Cargill ever stopped using his trademarks long enough that he lost the right of their sole use?
 
sunnyd said:
Mike,
Sounds like you may have the inside scoop here. Where are you getting your information from? I'd like to read about it from the source.
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No inside scoop, just paying attention to the chatter I see in places / people I talk with. The stockman was currently available from sources that I know purchase wholesale from Smokey and Blue Ridge; thus checked out BRK's catalog and found it. They and Smokey partner on almost all of the private label products these days; don't know the full extent of the relationship. SMKW has shown a sincere interest in resurrecting any brand out of use but with a strong following. Seems smart on their part as long as it is all legal; but there is still a concern over protecting any trademark of our hobby.

I'm sure there is still more information to gleen from this story; but no sense guessing. It is almost never a good idea for a dealer to step into conversations like this one; but I just didn't want the GEC bash to continue unless we had real reasons (and I am not smart enough to listen to that little voice most of the time). These GEC folks are doing the best job they can to provide income for 15-20 families while producing a quality product right here in the U.S.A.

In the BRK catalog they list some upcoming Cripple Creek models, that suprisingly have either GEC or Queen model numbers embedded in them that match the pattern described. That is why I am guessing that there will be more from these two makers.

Mike Latham
CollectorKnives.Net
 
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