New Busse Thumb Notches - Yay or Nay?

[Last Visible Canary]

perhaps this is a better illustration. you kinda have to imagine a choil being in place, so the portion of the blade being used to cut is roughly where you'd be cutting with the sar4.

high control - thumb roughly over the portion of the blade edge being used to cut with:

low control - where the thumb grooves end on the sar4:

if I had the money, I'd buy one just to try it out. with the knife in the pictures above, the blade would be at a heavier tilt so the start of the cut was at the gaurd for doing shavings, and I'd be holding the tip of the knife with my left hand to do fuzz sticks (like a reverse draw knife).



someone in another thread said the sar4 looked like a bravo-1, I don't think it does but it was funny seeing this -

from:
http://www.crystalfallstradingcompany.com/barkriver-bravo1.php

 

[1Tracker]

Thanks for those pictures LVC they do tell a thousand words as the saying goes. Answered my question that i had posed to Dunner. The Bravo1 pictures are correct though, so I see your point and Dunner's.

 

[Raining]

LVC - So are you also saying the thumb ramp in the Bravo-1 is in the wrong place or simply unneeded or both?

I personally like the way the Busse thumb notches look, but not sure I'll like how they feel when I use the blade.

 

[Raining]

Ah wait nevermind I just followed the link and realized they never intended it as a thumb ramp.

 

[Dunner]

LVC's pics have it right. You can tell the following things intuitively by looking at the pictures...

When able to grip close to the edge with the thumb over the first inch of usable edge you can put your weight over the cut yet still be very precise.

When forced to hold the knife farther back from the edge the cutting efficiency and precision is lost, weight applied to the cut converts to torque in your wrist while you try to maintain the edge perpendicular to the material. This is going to fatigue your hand much quicker.

 

[Last Visible Canary]

LVC - So are you also saying the thumb ramp in the Bravo-1 is in the wrong place or simply unneeded or both?

I personally like the way the Busse thumb notches look, but not sure I'll like how they feel when I use the blade.

in the vein of the bravo-1, if the notches are there to be striker points, then their placement is only relevant to it's ability to avoid negatively effecting the hand during use (and it's ability to reach the magnesium rod).

the only truly "wrong" way to do something is if you fail to accomplish the task in the allotted time needed, or hurt yourself doing it. everything else is levels of rightness, and preference. if you like the notches and find a use for them, great. if not, then hopefully they are in a position that won't negatively effect the hand during use.

 

[1Tracker]

Certainly the notches on the SAR4 can be smoothed down a bit if need be.

 

[Dunner]

Very true on notches and ramps. It is not that they are "wrong". I will back Jerry up on this as he said it over and over... There is just no making everyone happy with ramps and notches... not their type, shape or location. It sounds like MOST people like the notches so I would say Jerry got it right. My taste not withstanding LOL.

 

[Guyon]

I could do with or without the thumb notches. That said, they do throw a nice spark shower with a firesteel, my crappy technique notwithstanding.



The notches do not hurt my thumb, but I've worked with my hands all my life and don't have tender digits. I've seen folks complain similarly about Spyderco holes being too sharp, but I've never experienced that sensation myself.

There is nothing preventing one (aside from really small hands) from choking up on the SAR4 and cutting in the manner LVC presents above. Of course, you take the thumb notches out of play, but that's exactly what's going on in the Bravo 1 scenario above. Here's a quick picture:

 

[Last Visible Canary]

[/URL]

I haven't seen anyone comment on this, how do you feel about the reverse upsweep in the handle?

in that chocked up position, your middle and ring fingers are in the depth of the curve while your index and pinky are at the upsweeps, do you find that that reduces grip strength, increases control/indexability, or no noticeable change?

 

[matdigger]

I do not really understand what is all the fuss about the notches being too far or close on SAR4. I see no obstacles preventing anyone from choking their SAR4 in any usable way possible. Also I am not too keen to keep my fingers that far out on the blade and put it in a harms way. In any case when you would need to choke your blade that far out I would expect one to ware gloves and hence preventing any damage to the hand or slippage. So if someone cares to enplane what exactly is the issue with the new SAR4 notches (functionally speaking) please lay it out if possible. Thank you and Let's Drink. :thumbup:

 

[Guyon]

It seems like a pretty strong grip, though I should note I have pretty good-sized hands. I typically wear a Large or Xtra-large glove, depending on type and maker (large in fabric with some stretch, xtra-large in something like leather that doesn't give).

In the choked up position, some grip strength is lost in the index finger. However, the position also puts my middle and ring finger at the smallest point in the handle (directly over the middle tube fastener), and as a result, the position feels solid to me.

 

[Guyon]

In the choked up position, some grip strength is lost in the index finger. However, the position also puts my middle and ring finger at the smallest point in the handle (directly over the middle tube fastener), and as a result, the position feels solid to me.

Here's a crappy low-light picture showing what I mean. If you lay your thumb a bit flatter, you can actually catch a couple of the forward thumb notches and still apply some force directly over the blade edge just forward of the choil.

 

[Dunner]

I buy Busse's because I see them as no compromise tools. I have used smaller Busse's as you describe by choking up but that is an unacceptable compromise for ME and I sold all that I owned. I not going to the re-education camp that is going to make me enjoy that choil/guard area. It's fine.

I bitch about this because I think Jerry is a design genius and want to see what he comes up with that allows a user on a small/medium sized knife to actually keep their hand on the HANDLE while doing small tasks. I think that is reasonable and I hope the HOGMUK is where we see something like that.

The choil/talon hole/guard are design elements that to me are primarily about brand recognition and style. To me they compromise function. it isn't as much about the notches.

The SAR5 is the ONLY Busse I know of that was made that way and it wasn't made right by Jerry's own admission.

 

[matdigger]

... that allows a user on a small/medium sized knife to actually keep their hand on the HANDLE while doing small tasks. ...

I am sorry for ignorance of mine, but I do not see how you would justify that. How exactly and if possible in more constructive terms current SAR4 does not achieve that?

 

[Dunner]

It's just preference. I know the knife cuts but it is not optimal for what we do in SAR. People seemed interested in that before. I was not suggesting the knife does not cut. I was an obnoxiously frequent poster in the SAR design thread so you can review my comments there (I feel I am "sharing" too much here too :barf

Go look at the Siegel SAR in the wilderness forum that River 8 and Bill Siegel (and to a lesser degree myself and a couple other local SAR nerds) collaborated on. It is pure function and only incidentally aesthetically pleasing.

 

[Dunner]

And Matdigger, I saw my post as positive and constructive in that I am hopeful a future model better suits my taste . I am not trying to convince people not to get SAR4's. It's by far the coolest mid sized knife I have seen from Busse in the five years I have been lurking here. I am pro-SAR4 but it isn't perfect that's all.

 

[Last Visible Canary]

that allows a user on a small/medium sized knife to actually keep their hand on the HANDLE while doing small tasks.

i am very glad to see that i'm not the only one who believes this.

for me, it's also being able to index the start of the edge when completely blind. I could do that with the sar5, but it would be a constant tiny frustration having to place the edge any farther away from my hand then absolutely necessary. If I'm going to really choke up on a knife past it's normal handle position, I'm going to grab the back of the knife - even if there is a large choil present. that position is a chefs knife position, for small low pressure detail work. If I need to apply a lot of pressure to the knife to get it to do something "detailed" - I want my hand in as firm a grip as possible, which means primary grip.

for this knife, I comment for the sake of commenting (because I already have my perfect utility in this size ). since I'm not sar, I only get really nit picky about maximizing grip stability on knives advertised as fighters.

 

[matdigger]

And Matdigger, I saw my post as positive and constructive in that I am hopeful a future model better suits my taste . I am not trying to convince people not to get SAR4's. It's by far the coolest mid sized knife I have seen from Busse in the five years I have been lurking here. I am pro-SAR4 but it isn't perfect that's all.

Now I see a bit more, point taken. I was not inclining that your posts were negative, I just wanted to understand more of what I was failing to see. Thanks for the clarification.

As for the perfect knife, I guess that is something I am still in search of too. It is so hard to find one that will be all of what I want it to be but I think we are getting closer. :thumbup:

 

[idahoskunk]

holy crap, now i really need a drink, and i mean straight from the bottle, and i'm going to backwash while i'm at it :barf: