New custom knife came bent to the right?

Id like to put in my own business assesment since everyone else is..My own college degree is in business..Phillips family has been in the craft business(wood mostly) for over 40 years..
These are certain laws that govern the business world..dosnt matter what business it is..
*The customer is always right
*Demand drives price (if no one is willing to give $300 for your knife then its not worth $300 in the market)
We might not like it, but thats the way it is..We can all think that a knife is worth $500 but in reality if it sets unsold for months then guess what its worth???:grumpy: Phillip and his family have been in the hand made craft business longer than many of us have been alive..Their rule of pricing is overly simple by most standards but it rings true.."Something is worth just what someone is willing to pay" and "If it dosnt sell, change it to where it will sell" Meaning change the price or change the piece..
Thats an overly simple way of looking at it but in reality its true..If you put a knife out there that you think is worth $500 but if no one on gods green earth is willing to pay more than $250 for it guess how much its worth in the market????
Most makers have to find thier own niche..Maybe thats $1000 art knives, maybe its $100 working knives but you can make either work if you adjust to the market.Trust me, the market will never adjust to you..
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Edited: Id like to add I dont mean selling crappy knives dressed in fancy dyed burls covered in janky filework either..You all know what Im talking about there..Above all, it still has to be a high quaility product..
 
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jawilder said:
Am I ashamed of myself for bringing down prices? Absolutely not. Do I feel bad for possibly hurting full time knife makers? Not really. This is a free market. That means that your product is only worth what people are willing to pay for it. Don't complain that you can't sell a knife because you have to charge an extra $50 for stabilized burl. Either find cheaper wood or use something else. Many customers don't care if the wood is stabilized by K&G, WSSI, or the guy around the corner. Many of them don't even know what stabilized wood is. They just want something that they can show off to their friends, works better than walmart crap, and will last a lifetime. They also want to feel like they got a good deal.
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$0.02:

I say do your thing. I don't care one bit. The reason why is because MY customers are discerning, educated people. They know their knives and materials. They know what stabilized wood is. Most of them have very specific tastes and have their opinions of quality and function based on knowledge and real world experience. They don't choose my knife because it's cheaper, or because they just want to have something to show off to their friends. They choose my work because it's extremely high quality and functionally top notch. I don't price my knives based on what I need to sell them in bulk. I price them based on the cost of materials, the amount of time it requires to make them, what I consider to be a correct labor rate based on my skill level and execution, the level of difficulty of working with exotic materials when used, and what I believe the fair price is. The bottom line is that if your market is, as you put it in kinder but similar terms, uneducated/ignorant of quality materials, charge whatever you see fit. You definitely aren't hurting my business one little bit. If anyone ever asks me what I think of Wilder Forge, I'll just say, here it is from the horse's mouth, and point them to this handy dandy little quote of yours. ;)
 
Fiddleback said:
Thanks. You prooved my point. This guy is hurting the knife industry. Plus, he is proud of it and I think that stinks. But hey, we can go get jobs at gas stations and kiss his ass when he comes by to get his gas. WTF???

Consumers beware, if you support this kind of business practice, you are killing the custom knife industry.
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Andy, do you really think that consumers want an overinflated custom knife industry? If I had to guess, I'd venture to say that they'd rather get a quality knife at a fair price. I certainly mean no offense by my business practice. Also keep in mind that my $60 knives are only 2.5-3" simple neck knives that don't take a long time to make.

Unless I'm mistaken, you and I have been making knives for roughly the same amount of time - about seven years. The difference is that you chose to be a full time knife maker because it made sense at the time. I have had the luxury of doing it part time. You have progressed and made a name for yourself and built up a pretty good business. I, on the other hand am still a nobody, comparatively speaking. Your prices have gone up since you began selling knives because of demand. Hopefully I'll be able to raise my prices on day as well if there is enough demand for it. For now, I have to price my knives according to the market and as was stated above, a knife is only worth what people are willing to pay for it. This isn't a pissing match among knife makers. Everyone is just trying to get a piece of the pie and unfortunately there is only so much pie to go around.


Wolf Creek Forge said:
Id like to put in my own business assesment since everyone else is..My own college degree is in business..Phillips family has been in the craft business(wood mostly) for over 40 years..
These are certain laws that govern the business world..dosnt matter what business it is..
*The customer is always right
*Demand drives price (if no one is willing to give $300 for your knife then its not worth $300 in the market)
We might not like it, but thats the way it is..We can all think that a knife is worth $500 but in reality if it sets unsold for months then guess what its worth???:grumpy: Phillip and his family have been in the hand made craft business longer than many of us have been alive..Their rule of pricing is overly simple by most standards but it rings true.."Something is worth just what someone is willing to pay" and "If it dosnt sell, change it to where it will sell" Meaning change the price or change the piece..
Thats an overly simple way of looking at it but in reality its true..If you put a knife out there that you think is worth $500 but if no one on gods green earth is willing to pay more than $250 for it guess how much its worth in the market????
Most makers have to find thier own niche..Maybe thats $1000 art knives, maybe its $100 working knives but you can make either work if you adjust to the market.Trust me, the market will never adjust to you..
------------------------------------------
Edited: Id like to add I dont mean selling crappy knives dressed in fancy dyed burls covered in janky filework either..You all know what Im talking about there..Above all, it still has to be a high quaility product..
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This is exactly the point I was trying to make. You were able to say it better than me.

Fletcher Knives said:
$0.02:

I say do your thing. I don't care one bit. The reason why is because MY customers are discerning, educated people. They know their knives and materials. They know what stabilized wood is. Most of them have very specific tastes and have their opinions of quality and function based on knowledge and real world experience. They don't choose my knife because it's cheaper, or because they just want to have something to show off to their friends. They choose my work because it's extremely high quality and functionally top notch. I don't price my knives based on what I need to sell them in bulk. I price them based on the cost of materials, the amount of time it requires to make them, what I consider to be a correct labor rate based on my skill level and execution, the level of difficulty of working with exotic materials when used, and what I believe the fair price is. The bottom line is that if your market is, as you put it in kinder but similar terms, uneducated/ignorant of quality materials, charge whatever you see fit. You definitely aren't hurting my business one little bit. If anyone ever asks me what I think of Wilder Forge, I'll just say, here it is from the horse's mouth, and point them to this handy dandy little quote of yours. ;)
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I have no problem with you ever using that quote.

The point that I am trying to make is that quality should always be king and price should be determined by the market rather than how much we think our knives are worth.
 
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jawilder said:
This is exactly the point I was trying to make. You were able to say it better than me.
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No Sir.....I don't think that was your point. Your point sounded more like you can make an equal to or better knife than most....for 60.00
As Mr. Fletcher pointed out....you ain't putting a dent in anyone's business. Market, Market, Market is what it's all about. You have found a 60.00 Market. If that works for you then dominate it.
 
JBS TOOLMAKER said:
No Sir.....I don't think that was your point. Your point sounded more like you can make an equal to or better knife than most....for 60.00
As Mr. Fletcher pointed out....you ain't putting a dent in anyone's business. Market, Market, Market is what it's all about. You have found a 60.00 Market. If that works for you then dominate it.
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OK, then let me clarify my point so there is no confusion. I have found that there are different types of knife buyers. There are serious collectors who will spend $500+, intermediate buyers who will spend $200+, the average Joe who is willing to spend $100+ if he sees something he really likes, and then there's the guy who would love to have a custom but can't afford or justify spending more than his limited "fun money" for a custom. For the time being, that last part is the group that I am marketing my knives to. I am selling small knives for a small price, it is as simple as that. And for the time being, it is working in my favor. If/when that stops working, I'll find other knives to make for a price that people are willing to pay.

I am NOT saying that all knives should be dirt cheap! You should certainly get paid for your work and materials. If someone is willing to pay for ivory and Damascus then charge accordingly. If someone isn't willing to pay for your ivory and Damascus then find another buyer or make something within the price range that they are comfortable with.

As I said, I meant no offense in all this and really wish everyone the best.
 
The point that I am trying to make is that quality should always be king and price should be determined by the market rather than how much we think our knives are worth.

That's more like it.
To be more accurate the secondary market controls the price. Lot's of custom folders including mine get bought and sometimes flipped for a higher price than what I originally sold it for. Some guys raise their prices based on this, I have chosen not to. I already made my money, if someone can make money on it, more power to em. I am a capitalist. I looked at the blades you are selling for 60.00 I think that's fair based on size, but you could sell it for 200.00 if you want to.....and someone will pay it. When you are in business for yourself you make your own rules, prices etc. Within the boundaries of your market.
 
There are some really good post here. But this has to be the King of the Thread Drift threads! I guess I'll add to it ;)

I'm another one who has turned several "hobbies" into full fledged businesses. As someone above said, eventually it stopped becoming fun and started becoming something I loathed. But no matter which business it was, there were always those who said it was the part timers or hobbiest that were ruining it.

When I had an inspection company, many other inspectors said it was the weekend and 'after-work' inspectors ruining the industry. Many Real Estate Agents will tell you it's the part timers that are hurting their business.

In lawn care, it was the High School Kids and Weekend Warriors that many claimed hurt their business.

In construction, the same thing. It was the part-time or weekend Handy men who were killing the Industry!

In reality, there are price points consumers have that they will not go above for a product or service. As Jason said above, the niche of people buying the $60 knives are not likely to lay down $250 or $500 for a blade. They have a point in their mind where they will not pay a penny more because they either can't afford it or don't see the value in owning a high end knife.

It's the same with many service oriented businesses. There are people who will not pay a dollar more than $30 to get their lawn mowed ever week while others will pay nearly three times that. Will they pay for the same quality as the $30 mow? Probably not. For the extra money, they expect more.

It comes down to knowing your niche and your customers. I believe Fletcher hit it on the head with his post. Know who your customer is and what they want. Some people only want a knife that will hold an edge longer than the Chinese made Buck down at Wal-Mart while others want a conversation piece to show off and brag about. Some want both, some don't. Don't try and sell your knives to people who aren't going to buy them in the first place. You'll just be wasting time, money and effort on them. The market will take care of itself. If a full time knife maker, lawn care professional, Heating/Air contractor or custom furniture maker (just to name a few) can't zero in on their niche then they're going to have a hard road to travel.

I certainly don't mean to offend anyone and hope I haven't. But I've pretty much been on all sides of this issue. Some will always struggle pricing their products/services while some seem to make it look easy. That's just the nature of the beast!
 
So..... OP did you get your money back? Is it the aforementioned maker? If not I feel bad that they've been dismantled. I'm a very new hobbyist who has really begun to enjoy making knives and learning. I really have little intention on selling but people have bought my knives for low prices because they liked them. I sell low because I'm not that good but they stay sharp and look decent to the untrained eyes. Obviously others here would dismantle my feeble attempts but if someone that isn't into $1000 knives wants to buy one if mine I see no problem. True collectors I imagine are not buying the cheaper knives, and people who are probably cant afford a true master smith knife. It just allows the market to have some options.
 
jawilder said:
Since this thread has gone way past where it began, I'll chime in with my opinions.

I'll admit to being one of the hobby makers that may be hurting the full time makers. I've sold over 80 knives in the past 6 months for $60. When I started doing this, I was the only one that I knew of that produced a quality knife with a good heat treat and attention to detail at a super cheap price. Now there are cheap knives all over the place and I'm sure that this has hurt the market here on BF for full time makers.

Am I ashamed of myself for bringing down prices? Absolutely not. Do I feel bad for possibly hurting full time knife makers? Not really. This is a free market. That means that your product is only worth what people are willing to pay for it. Don't complain that you can't sell a knife because you have to charge an extra $50 for stabilized burl. Either find cheaper wood or use something else. Many customers don't care if the wood is stabilized by K&G, WSSI, or the guy around the corner, as long as it was properly done. Many of them don't even know what stabilized wood is. They just want something that they can show off to their friends, works better than walmart crap, and will last a lifetime. They also want to feel like they got a good deal.

For those full time knife makers who complain that the prices are too low for you to stay in business, then pick a different profession, find wealthier customers, or produce more knives at a lower price. If that means that you work for $5 an hour then so be it. If you want more money per hour then find a job at a gas station. Being in business for yourself means that you have to find your place in the market and make it work.

Just because we produce "custom knives" doesn't mean that they have to cost an arm and a leg. I have fair prices because I wouldn't ask someone to pay a price that I wouldn't pay.

Rant off. This is just my opinion so take it for what its worth.



Exactly......Lots of trades have to compete with hobbyists...,those who survive have something special to offer, there are no better markets than the free ones we enjoy.
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I too wonder how the OP's business turned out... if for nothing else, than my curiosity if I'm right about those knives being pre ground blanks.
 
Bent knives happen, they should never leave the shop bent, period.
 
I'd be genuinely pissed if I received a knife like that from a maker of any skill level. It's pretty crazy to file work the blade and send it out bent.
 
Great discussion, I love it when people light up and really throw a topic back and forth, that's where we all learn something and it helps the rest of us sort things out.
I personally think Benchmade with their marketing savvy did a lot of us a big favor- They broke the $100 barrier for an awful lot of young men, now they think of a knife as something you lay out some money for and use for a long long time.
Perhaps that's something that has to happen for every generation, the demographic I get to watch is my mid-twenties sons and their peers.
 
Wow this went from left field all the way over to the football field! Lol

As of now my knife is on its way back to the maker. He says he will be replacing it and is sorry. I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt as this is my first time dealing with him. Although it may be far fetched, this can truly be an honest mistake. His communication skills however remain sub par.

I'm just trying to put myself in one of your guys shoes as a maker/artisan. This guy gets his second chance to make it right. If he does great! I move on never to do business with him again. If he doesn't, I get my money back and still never do business with him again and post his full info here as a heads up to any future potential buyers. I totally think this is fair.

On a note regarding how far off the deep end this thread has gone, I totally don't mind. I think there's some great discussion going on here. There's def. a fine line when it comes to pricing for any maker. It's interesting to see how some of you handle that. My hats off to all the makers here though. Knife making is no easy thing (that is if you take pride in your work). Patience a keen eye and a healthy imagination you all have.
I look forward to doing business with some of you guys in the future!


Will keep updating as things progress. SVS
 
Im glad to hear they will make things right and its very gracious of you to give a second chance :thumbup: I hope he realizes how good of a customer he has. :)
 
He sells on ebay too, says return shipping paid if your not satisfied.....the ebay offerings are pretty rough.
 
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